Oh. Not because of you!

Because, if last year you had asked me:

"Do you want P3 back?"

I would have said: "Can't happen. We SAW him die ON SCREEN."

And if you'd said, "Well, what if we can retcon that?"

I would have said: "He was SUCH an important character in the late 80s. His death really fueled the deepening of the Jil-Kay feud for Jess Walton. It was an iconic moment on the show. If they bring him back, I want it BIG. I want us to really FEEL how much we missed."

And now...we get this. Not even a HUG. This selfish pr*ck who is not even sorry for what he did!! Who can't even register a facial expression when he sees his son!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, now I agree with you. He is/should be a short timer. I can't believe I would ever have come to that.

Ok, now I get it. I think this has been a very strange way to bring back Philip and there has been a definite lack of emotion. I get the hostility and anger, but there is no joy that this man that they so loved and believed was dead for 20 years is still alive. That absence of even one hug is glaring and I don't get it. It feels like Jill wants to reach out, but then nothing. It's like any moments of genuine happiness or love have been banned recently.

Well... I was thinking, so many of you are complaining about the misogyny, death, sickness, and darkness that is Y&R lately. But consider what the two year period of Y&R's greatest ratings increase contained as far as story (1974-76, from seventeenth place to THIRD):

In chronological order:

1: Chris Brooks is raped.

2:Pierre gets attacked by a burglar and dies.

3: Gwen Sherman, Greg's girlfriend (who turned out to be a hooker trying to mend her ways) got beaten badly and put in the hospital when she tried to leave her pimp and go the straight and narrow.

4: Leslie loses her mind and is found wandering the streets of NY in a daze, and is then commited to an asylum, where the other patients beat her and steal her food, cuasing her to go hungry every night.

5: Chris Brooks falls down and has a miscarriage

6: Stuart Brooks has a heart attack and almost dies.

7: Brad gets severe headaches, and learn he is going blind.

8: Kay tries to kill both Phillip and Jill, except she was so drunk, she forgot to put bullets in the gun.

9: Kay drives Phillip over the cliff.

10: Jennifer Brooks gets breast cancer.

11: Bill Foster returns home to die, and Liz pulls the plug on him to end his suffering.

And this all happened within a 24 month span... is it any wonder why Maria is doing what she's doing now?

And this all happened within a 24 month span... is it any wonder why Maria is doing what she's doing now?

Yes, because the show didn't go to #1 until a decade later and the show that went to #1 was almost a different show completely from that one.

Also, as someone else brought up, Maria may be trying to channel Bill Bell, but her storylines LACK the emotion and EXECUTION that her late father-in-law wrote with generally. Not to mention, her pacing is all over the place and her story ideas are beyond polarizing.

And let us not forget Maria and her "vision" has brought Y&R to record low ratings, and ratings are threading back downward. So, obviously, these storylines aren't an overall success for her.

Edited July 17, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

I think LoyaltoAMC described perfectly Maria and Conpany's writing style and how it sucks and differs from Bill Bell's.

More and more, I'm beginning to think that Engen quit not because he's homophobic but because he felt the gay twist is embarrassing and insulting. Yes, it's probably usually never a good idea for actors to take issue with the writing, but just possibly Engen had enough integrity to not do something he felt trivializes or mocks gay people and our lives. As for the show itself, I too find it terrible. Y&R, like all other soaps, has ALWAYS been plot driven. What was always different about Y&R was that their <i>scenes were never about the plot</i>. The scenes were always character-driven, yet still took the story from point A to point B. James Houghton gave an interview to KnotsLanding.net a few years back while he was still on the writing staff of Y&R (around the time his former Knots co-star Joan Van Ark was playing Gloria), and he attributed a good part of Y&R's success to the fact that the writing staff goes out of their way to ensure that the individual scenes are always about the characters, not the plot. Viewers relate to that type of technique, he believed, and I totally agree. I don't get that sense from the scene writing anymore. While it's definitely true that the tone of MAB's plots probably doesn't veer too far away from Bill Bell's or Kay Alden's tone, her execution of the plots is so different. With her, and I'm noticing this more and more, the plot eats away at the scene to the point that the characters and the dialogue come off solely as plot devices. It's just very manipulative writing. The viewers are more intelligent than TPTB think, and they know when they're being played.

Edited July 17, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

Sorry, but going from seventeenth place to THIRD is a far bigger achievement that going from third to first.

Sorry, but going from seventeenth place to THIRD is a far bigger achievement that going from third to first.

Yes, but the difference is, Maria Arena Bell wasn't writing Y&R at the time, and the style, execution, and pacing of her writing differs greatly from something that originally aired in 1974.

I would venture to say that Y&R maintaining its #1 status for as long as it did under Bill Bell was a much more harder and commendable feat to accomplish, since competition is stiff, especially with the rise of cable in the 80's and 90's.

And again, of course, the Y&R that went to #1 in 1988 and remained there was very different from the one that aired in 1974.

Unlike Bill Bell, Maria inherited the #1 soap and drove it to rapid record lows in the ratings in a very short amount of time, and the show's ratings have never fully recovered.

Edited July 17, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

And again, of course, the Y&R that went to #1 in 1988 and remained there was very different from the one that aired in 1974.

And how would you know this when you weren't even alive in 1974? I know for a fact that there are only 4 episodes of Y&R from the 70's that are in the hands of fans, no WAY can you get a feeling for what that show was really like from just those 4 (Especially since one is the premiere eppy) With the exception of the coroprate SL's, and a psycho or two, Y&R in the 80's was EXACTLY the same. Bill Bell was STILL playing that incest card in order to induce the "shock and awe" you hate so much, Leslie loses her marbles in a storm, 10 years later, Ashley does the exact same thing. Kay and Jill still fight. You still ahve sibling rivalry, except it's Traci/Ashley instead of Lorie/Leslie. You had Gwen Sherman, the hooker with a heart of gold, then 10 years later, you get Boobsie Caswell.

And how would you know this when you weren't even alive in 1974? I know for a fact that there are only 4 episodes of Y&R from the 70's that are in the hands of fans, no WAY can you get a feeling for what that show was really like from just those 4 (Especially since one is the premiere eppy) With the exception of the coroprate SL's, and a psycho or two, Y&R in the 80's was EXACTLY the same. Bill Bell was STILL playing that incest card in order to induce the "shock and awe" you hate so much, Leslie loses her marbles in a storm, 10 years later, Ashley does the exact same thing. Kay and Jill still fight. You still ahve sibling rivalry, except it's Traci/Ashley instead of Lorie/Leslie. You had Gwen Sherman, the hooker with a heart of gold, then 10 years later, you get Boobsie Caswell.

In terms of characters, and the era of the show, there had to be big fundamental differences on show when comparing 1974 and 1988. There's no way to avoid it, everything changes with time.

The tone might be the same in some circumstances, and of course this is a soap, so storylines are bound to be recycled.

One might also say the corporate aspect of Y&R really started to become dominant in the 80's and that really shifted the dynamics of the show and some things were altered because of it.

Bell recycled storylines, there's no way to deny that and there was a whole thread about it a year ago. But this is a soap and Bill was HW for 25 years, so of course this was going to be apparent in some cases.

Bill Bell took his time to let storylines unfold, unlike Maria, who rushes through stories and skips important beats.

Maria Arena Bell's Y&R isn't a complete success and her execution differs greatly from stories of the past and her show hasn't been the ratings success many had hoped for.

Edited July 17, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

It's like alphanguy is channeling Alina...except she did by pissing on Marland and his ten rules instead of Bill Bell and his wonderful storytelling.

And I think both of them are extremely off-base.

In terms of characters, and the era of the show, there had to be big fundamental differences on show when comparing 1974 and 1988. There's no way to avoid it, everything changes with time.

The tone might be the same in some circumstances, and of course this is a soap, so storylines are bound to be recycled.

One might also say the corporate aspect of Y&R really started to become dominant in the 80's and that really shifted the dynamics of the show and some things were altered because of it.

Bell recycled storylines, there's no way to deny that and there was a whole thread about it a year ago. But this is a soap and Bill was HW for 25 years, so of course this was going to be apparent in some cases.

Bill Bell took his time to let storylines unfold, unlike Maria, who rushes through stories and skips important beats.

Maria Arena Bell's Y&R isn't a complete success and her execution differs greatly from stories of the past and her show hasn't been the ratings success many had hoped for.

You said it there yourself. I AGREE that Maria's PACING has become ALOT different than Bill's and I'm not liking it. But I do think she's channeling Bill as far as SL concepts go. She's got TWO shortcomings:

1: bad pacing

2: lackluster payoffs and reveals. ( of course, with today's climate of spoilers, a fabulous reveal is almost impossible to pull off)

Edited July 17, 200916 yr by alphanguy74

You said it there yourself. I AGREE that Maria's PACING has become ALOT different than Bill's and I'm not liking it. But I do think she's channeling Bill as far as SL concepts go. She's got TWO shortcomings:

1: bad pacing

2: lackluster payoffs and reveals. ( of course, with today's clmiate of spoilers,

But what good are the concepts, when her execution and pacing are so off? Doesn't Y&R deserve someone who can get the SL concepts, pacing, and execution right?

Not to mention, she has a list of other problems that have been hammered through in this thread.

Edited July 17, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

OF course, I just pray that this show never becomes like ATWT, where the main gay couple are sitting around crocheting doilies, and a main male lead is put in drag.

OF course, I just pray that this show never becomes like ATWT, where the main gay couple are sitting around crocheting doilies, and a main male lead is put in drag.

Well, we've got one of the two covered(Engen's Adam as Sabrina).

Well, we've got one of the two covered(Engen's Adam as Sabrina).

I was ok with that for the one episode, at least there weren't FALSIES involved. I tuned into ATWT last week and saw "Geneva", I said "WTF!!!!" I couldn't beleive someone would come up with something like that.

Ok, now I get it. I think this has been a very strange way to bring back Philip and there has been a definite lack of emotion. I get the hostility and anger, but there is no joy that this man that they so loved and believed was dead for 20 years is still alive. That absence of even one hug is glaring and I don't get it. It feels like Jill wants to reach out, but then nothing. It's like any moments of genuine happiness or love have been banned recently.

Yes. Right now, we have two MAJOR returns (P3 and Patty)...and they are exciting IDEAS...but P3's is diminished by this utter lack of love and joy. And Patty....solely her brother remains on canvas (for 2 eps a month), and nobody ever talks about Patty or misses her or remembers her. Thus, when it IS revealed (with shock and horror, because has now TOTALLY F*CKED UP A BABY GIRL'S BRAIN FOREVER!!!) it will not have the emotion.

It's a joke around here how much I love this show and forgive it anything. There is nothing wrong with the plots. Alphan has repeatedly reminded us that these are all quite Bell-ian in some ways.

But the lack of heart, and the hints of depravity...that's different. Mary Jane's "Kitty" (now, in Crimson Lights for a saucer of milk???) has slowly become an implausible comic device...quite B&Bish, I think. And there remains the appalling, appalling spectre of the face that Adam wiped up Ashley's fetus with rags and burned it.

I enjoy Muhney very much in his role. He gives it his all. But seeing him today Morrow...you can see Muhney has left the planet and is playing a comic book villain at this point. Or, rather, he is being written as one. That's sad. Because this is Victor Newman Jr! That character shoulda had legs!