Y&R: Shocking Role Recast

[Heyou]

I agree, and as a longtime fan of Adrianne Leon, there IS so much more to that story than what TPTB would want to ever admit, and from that, I have also learned not to believe everything that you read online. But especially if Nelson is the one reporting it. Yes, Nelson does get the bigger interviews but he's also known for kissing Bloom and MAB's ass for scoop therefore TPTB are controlling the info that Nelson is getting his hands on. Please Keep in mind, when reading something about our soap stars, there IS always two sides to every story and TPTB have a hell of a lot more money and influence than these actors will ever have.

I am in no way condoning what CE did, if it is the truth but do we really know the truth here? Just saying!

[SteveFrame]

You can see my post above on how I feel about it.

Basically you have the right to say what you want but what is gained by calling a man a name and bashing him just because he doesn't believe the way you do or feel the way you or I do.

I am not a religious person but I was raised on the golden rule by my parents and that is how I live my life. To treat others as you would want them to treat you - not the same way they treat you. You treat them better.

Just because he feels that way does not make it okay for me to bash him and crucify him because he doesn't believe the same way I do. Sure I would love everyone to think like I do but it ain't gonna happen.

I know of people in my everyday life who don't agree with homosexuality or gay marriage and would do the exact same thing Engen did. Are they homophonbes - hell no. They love me and treat me the same as any other person. They just don't agree with my lifestyle.

Are there homophobes and stuff out there. Hell yes. But not everyone who thinks gay marriage or homosexuality are wrong are homophobes. They are not out to get us or to crucify us. Hell half the democrats don't think homosexuality is right and go to churches that preach homosexuality is a sin every week. But they are not against us. They just don't agree with us.

As I said we can all take and stand on our side of the road and call each other names and stuff and wish death on everyone that doesn't agree with us. If we do that you know where we are going to be in ten years - still standing on that same side of the road throwing bricks and names at one another.

Until Chris Engen comes out and says he hates gays and wishes them to die, then I won't call him a homophobe. If he is just uncomforatble with gays and uncomfortable with kissing another man, that may be all there is to it. And that does not make one a homophobe. That is just like an actress that refuses to do nudity - that doesn't make her instantly someone that hates people who do nudity - she just is not comfortable doing it herself.

I don't know if that answers your question or not. I just feel that even if he is a homophobe, standing on my side of the road and hating him is impounding hate upon hate. And in the end two wrongs don't make a right in my book.

Sorry that is just the way I feel.

I appreciate that so many of you are so passionate over this. I am just as equally passionate about how I feel I guess.

[cara mia]

If Branco is too believed, Engen did not walk because Adam is gay or not gay, he walked because he did not want to kiss another man. He may very well have played "gay" Adam if it was no-kissing like Nuke. We don't know what Engen was thinking or what the meetings with MAB and Rauch were like and we will never know.

I just don't understand how TPTB can go to Gellman and make sure he's on board and not do the same thing with Engen. Considering we know TPTB did not tell Walton the full story about the paycuts or the way they surprised Peeples with her last day and so on, I am inclined to believe that they do a lousy job of communicating basic information to the cast. TPTB have no respect for the actors. It's possible that Engen walked as much out of a feeling of being disrespected than anything else. Once again, we don't know. If Engen was the only troubling story out of the Y&R set in the last year, I could see demonizing him, but he's not the only troubling story. Far from it.

[KLN]

So basically, you are a believer of the "turn the other cheek" theory, and even if he is in fact a homophobe, we shouldn't say anything mean about him because two wrongs don't make a right. I see.

From my point of view, I don't understand why it's so important to protect the feelings of the "homophobe." (I put that in quotes for a reason.) If people want to take certain actions, they have to expect that there will also be reactions. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. I think it makes more sense to be angry at the offender than the offendee (is that a word?) for reacting.

[SteveFrame]

I just want to throw this out there and maybe some of you can understand why I am so passionate about this.

About 10 years ago when I was going through my divorce, I was accused of doing something I did not do. I was accused of making a pass on a client and I never did. Part of the story came out in our local paper, and my life was a living hell for a year. People who wanted to believe what they heard or what they were told or what they believed to be true about the story. By the end of things the story got so twisted to the point that I had done everything from rape to torturing the client. When all it was the client got mad at me over something and tried to ruin me. In the end the truth came out but by then it was too late - my reputation with so many people in this town was ruined. The emotional problems that came from it increased my medical problems and that is the reason to this day that I am on partial disability and have to work out of my home. It took me forever to rebuild my life here. And for some they will still always believe what they want about the story. I will always be a sexual pervert in their minds.

I used to be the biggest gossip and the biggest person to jump to conclusions and to jump to calling names and the like even when I didn't know the truth. I don't anymore. I have seen first hand what it can do to a person.

I weigh on the side of caution. I just can't condemn a person. I just choose to not go there anymore.

[KLN]

What the hell? Divorce dramas never make our local papers in Indiana unless they're celebrity-related.

Anyway, what you went through sounds like quite the hand wringer. Sorry to hear it.

[cara mia]

Someone not wanting to kiss another person of the same sex does not make them a homophobe per se. It just means it's outside of their comfort zone. We don't know Engen's politics. He might support gay marriage and gay causes. Who knows? Miss California, who spoke out against gay marriage, is a clear homophobe. I personally see a difference.

[Cashton]

i like your views Steve - but again, if he walked out because he didn't want to kiss a Jewish woman due to his beliefs it would disgust people. The fundamental difference in my view and your view is that I believe sexual orientation bias, racial bias, and religious bias are one in the same. There would be no congratulating him for standing up for his beliefs if the issue was racial, religious or otherwise. The fact that homophobia is still the only publicly OK predjudice is what angers me more than anything. My dislike of the actor has to do with his actions, not who he is a person.

[All My Shadows]

Maybe Gellman has chronic halitosis, and that's why Engen didn't want to kiss him.

I've disagreed with almost everything you've said so far, but this is totally true and something that people really don't think about a lot.

[SteveFrame]

If he was a true homophobe or a gay basher then I could understand that to some degree but I just fail to see how just being uncomfortable with kissing a guy makes someone a homophobe. Maybe you have a different idea of what a homophobe is than I do. I see a homophobe as someone who literally hates gays and wants them to die. That is far more serious than just being uncomfortable with them.

If that narrow meaning of a homophobe is true then just about every friend and family member I have is a homophobe. Many of them don't hate homosexuals at all, but yes they are uncomfortable with the concept of homosexuality. I see that as a big difference.

And how does labeling that person an offender or making fun of them help to ever better the situation?

In the case of a person who bashes gays or wishes death upon them. I don't see any area of turning the other cheek, but with someone who is just uncomvfortable with homosexuality I just don't see not giving them the benefit of the doubt and working with them in hopes that they will learn to accept us.

If Engen is not a homophobe and just uncomfortable with homosexuality, I ask you this. How do you think after being crucified by gays as he has been do you think he is going to feel toward gays after this? If there was ever a chance to get him to change his mind and to not be uncomfortable with it we have blown. We have shut a door. If he didn't hate us before, he will hate us after this. If he doesn't he is a bigger person that I would be.

[KLN]

I see a difference, as well. In my post above, I was speaking in general terms in response to Steve saying that he would feel the same way even if Engen IS a homophobe. Personally, I wouldn't go so far as to call him that.

[Cashton]

i guess it all depends on your definition of homophobic. I use the one in the dictionary that says "fear of homosexuality".

[SteveFrame]

The person I was accused of making the pass at went to my wife first with it. She filed for divorce accusing me of adultery. Then the person filed suit against me to save face accusing me of sex harrassment. The divorce lawyer used my case with the harrassment as grounds for my divorce. The papers covered both of them because of the harrassment suit. They just threw the divorce in for extra ammunition in the paper.

We live in one of those towns where all the little gossip makes the papers each week. I remember going to Alabama to visit a girl I dated once and the local paper the next week had that in one of it's columns: "Steve Frame went to Alabama this last week to visit his girlfriend and her family. We are glad to hear he had a good time."

So everything makes the papers here. It is a regular little Peyton Place in every sense of the word.

[Sapounopera]

I agree with everything you have written Steve.

[KLN]

If he is in fact a homophobe, I imagine he would feel the same way about gay people as he did before.

I mean, I get what you're trying to say. It's basically "kill 'em with kindness and maybe they'll come around." Would you say the same thing to the Jews who were burned alive by Hitler? "Oh, just give him some time... don't be mean to him and maybe he'll start to like you more," LoL. Yes, I realize that's a very extreme comparison, but it's the same kind of concept. It seems to me like racial prejudice and religious prejudice and every other kind of bias is unacceptable, but homophobia is a prejudice that people still take lightly. It's still given a pass in schools. It's still applauded by others who claim to be "proud of another person for standing by their beliefs." It's frustrating. But again, this is kind of veering off the Engen topic and swooping into a whole other conversation.