1 hour ago, vetsoapfan said:

The footage I have seen of Virginia Dwyer, she appears to be a fine actress and very much playing mother Mary Matthews.  Lemay just wanted to change the landscape.  He should have really just been honest instead of commenting on their acting abilities considering he excused the actors he praised for the same flaws. 

Agreed. And to be honest, Lemay simply did not understand the soap opera archetype of the traditional loving matriarch (Mary Matthews, Nancy Hughes, Alice Horton, Bert Bauer, etc).  He admits that in his memoir.  Soap matriarchs are usually fundamentally happy women -- not flawless, sometimes interfering, but fundamentally happy.  And Lemay preferred writing for unhappy characters.  Think about it -- Lemay's favorites: Pat, Lenore, Steve, Liz, Mac, Iris, Elliot, all of the Frame siblings, Robert Delany, Rose, Angie, even Alice, were all unhappy people or at least in a fairly permanent unhappy situation.  Lemay had no idea how to write for a happy woman like Mary.  So first, he tried to make her unhappy and meddling by writing for her as if she were Liz Matthews.  And when Dwyer didn't play his scripts that way, he simply brought Liz back to the canvas and killed-off Mary.    Years later in his memoir, he tried to blame Dwyer's firing on her acting skills, while vaguely admitting he did not know how to write for a traditional matriarch.   Virginia Dwyer was perfectly cast as Mary, and her acting skills were strong.  In his memoir, Lemay toyed with the idea of being truthful about Mary's exit, but his pride got in the way -- and he blamed it on the actress.  I love Lemay, but he made some huge damned mistakes.   

11 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

I think Rauch did well on AW in the beginning, when he and Lemay kept the core of the show (the way Phillips and Nixon had created and developed it) intact. Once he and Lemay started tampering with and dismantling the drama's roots, however, the bottom fell out. As you say, the last several years of PR's reign there were a mess.

His stints on Texas and For Richer, For Poorer failed. IMHO, he was a disaster on OLTL (which he decimated) and TGL. His stints on Santa Barbara and Y&R were not terribly noteworthy, although not as harmful as his time on OLTL in particular. I do agree he would have been better than Charlotte Savitz to re-helm AW, however.😁

The endless miscasting of Alice Frame still baffles me. How some of those actresses were chosen will forever remain a mystery.🙄

I remember reading an irate letter from a fan in a soap mag that went, "I never appreciated Jacquie Courtney (I never voted for her in any fan-magazine polls) until I saw her replacement!" I think that most performers can be replaced effectively, but with some, TPTB shouldn't even try. After TGL's Charita Bauer passed away, a friend asked me if I could accept a Bert Bauer recast. UGH. Over my dead body. I never accepted any of the "fake" Alices, LOL.

Yes to all of the above!

3 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Agreed. And to be honest, Lemay simply did not understand the soap opera archetype of the traditional loving matriarch (Mary Matthews, Nancy Hughes, Alice Horton, Bert Bauer, etc).  He admits that in his memoir.  Soap matriarchs are usually fundamentally happy women -- not flawless, sometimes interfering, but fundamentally happy.  And Lemay preferred writing for unhappy characters.  Think about it -- Lemay's favorites: Pat, Lenore, Steve, Liz, Mac, Iris, Elliot, all of the Frame siblings, Robert Delany, Rose, Angie, even Alice, were all unhappy people or at least in a fairly permanent unhappy situation.  Lemay had no idea how to write for a happy woman like Mary.  So first, he tried to make her unhappy and meddling by writing for her as if she were Liz Matthews.  And when Dwyer didn't play his scripts that way, he simply brought Liz back to the canvas and killed-off Mary.    Years later in his memoir, he tried to blame Dwyer's firing on her acting skills, while vaguely admitting he did not know how to write for a traditional matriarch.   Virginia Dwyer was perfectly cast as Mary, and her acting skills were strong.  In his memoir, Lemay toyed with the idea of being truthful about Mary's exit, but his pride got in the way -- and he blamed it on the actress.  I love Lemay, but he made some huge damned mistakes.   

So, do we believe the anecdote that she threw everything in her closet out one day when she realized all of her clothes were Mary's, not hers?

On 2/28/2024 at 4:01 PM, Sapounopera said:

I never mind when people start talking about another show. Most of the times it comes in an organic way and I am sure that everyone here is smart enough to follow the conversation or... ignore a few messages they don't care for, Contessa Donatella. 

This may be something I am hard wired about, strictly because I have received punitive measures just from doing exactly this kind of off-topic talk! 

9 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Agreed. And to be honest, Lemay simply did not understand the soap opera archetype of the traditional loving matriarch (Mary Matthews, Nancy Hughes, Alice Horton, Bert Bauer, etc).  He admits that in his memoir.  Soap matriarchs are usually fundamentally happy women -- not flawless, sometimes interfering, but fundamentally happy.  And Lemay preferred writing for unhappy characters.  Think about it -- Lemay's favorites: Pat, Lenore, Steve, Liz, Mac, Iris, Elliot, all of the Frame siblings, Robert Delany, Rose, Angie, even Alice, were all unhappy people or at least in a fairly permanent unhappy situation.  Lemay had no idea how to write for a happy woman like Mary.  So first, he tried to make her unhappy and meddling by writing for her as if she were Liz Matthews.  And when Dwyer didn't play his scripts that way, he simply brought Liz back to the canvas and killed-off Mary.    Years later in his memoir, he tried to blame Dwyer's firing on her acting skills, while vaguely admitting he did not know how to write for a traditional matriarch.   Virginia Dwyer was perfectly cast as Mary, and her acting skills were strong.  In his memoir, Lemay toyed with the idea of being truthful about Mary's exit, but his pride got in the way -- and he blamed it on the actress.  I love Lemay, but he made some huge damned mistakes.   

I could not agree more!

2 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

So, do we believe the anecdote that she threw everything in her closet out one day when she realized all of her clothes were Mary's, not hers?

I don't remember that anecdote, but if it was in Lemay's book, how the Hell would Lemay even know what Dwyer did with her clothes?  Did she come to the studio one day and announce it?  And if so, was Lemay even in the studio that day?   Seriously, I don't remember that from the book, but I haven't re-read it for a few years. Still that sounds like hearsay or gossip.   Why would he even expect his readers to take something like that seriously??   

2 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Agreed. And to be honest, Lemay simply did not understand the soap opera archetype of the traditional loving matriarch (Mary Matthews, Nancy Hughes, Alice Horton, Bert Bauer, etc).  He admits that in his memoir.  Soap matriarchs are usually fundamentally happy women -- not flawless, sometimes interfering, but fundamentally happy.  And Lemay preferred writing for unhappy characters.  Think about it -- Lemay's favorites: Pat, Lenore, Steve, Liz, Mac, Iris, Elliot, all of the Frame siblings, Robert Delany, Rose, Angie, even Alice, were all unhappy people or at least in a fairly permanent unhappy situation.  Lemay had no idea how to write for a happy woman like Mary.  So first, he tried to make her unhappy and meddling by writing for her as if she were Liz Matthews.  And when Dwyer didn't play his scripts that way, he simply brought Liz back to the canvas and killed-off Mary.    Years later in his memoir, he tried to blame Dwyer's firing on her acting skills, while vaguely admitting he did not know how to write for a traditional matriarch.   Virginia Dwyer was perfectly cast as Mary, and her acting skills were strong.  In his memoir, Lemay toyed with the idea of being truthful about Mary's exit, but his pride got in the way -- and he blamed it on the actress.  I love Lemay, but he made some huge damned mistakes.   

You are on a roll these days, with many great posts!👏

I wish everyone here could have been around to watch a scene from the 1960s, in which a subdued Jim Matthews had to reveal to Mary Matthews that their daughter-in-law, Rachel, had not gotten pregnant by their son Russ. Steven Frame was the child's actual father. Mary, so often composed, warm and understanding, did NOT take the news well. She couldn't hold back her rage and just went berserk. She started shrieking, "I hate her! I...HATE... HER!" I actually froze and got goose-bumps, the scenes was so harrowing. To this day, I think it was Dwyer's finest moment.

Like you, I greatly admired HL's initial work, but...

3 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

I don't remember that anecdote, but if it was in Lemay's book, how the Hell would Lemay even know what Dwyer did with her clothes?  Did she come to the studio one day and announce it?  And if so, was Lemay even in the studio that day?   Seriously, I don't remember that from the book, but I haven't re-read it for a few years. Still that sounds like hearsay or gossip.   Why would he even expect his readers to take something like that seriously??   

You got a problem? Not at all from Lemay. Her own account, on the AWHP. 

28 minutes ago, Efulton said:

Yes to all of the above!

Thank you, my dear!😊

19 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

I don't remember that anecdote, but if it was in Lemay's book, how the Hell would Lemay even know what Dwyer did with her clothes?  Did she come to the studio one day and announce it?  And if so, was Lemay even in the studio that day?   Seriously, I don't remember that from the book, but I haven't re-read it for a few years. Still that sounds like hearsay or gossip.   Why would he even expect his readers to take something like that seriously??   

It's like the absurd anecdote in his book about having lunch in a restaurant with Virginia Dwyer, when she was unhappy about how much he misunderstood her character. According to Lemay, she was all about preening; sitting and conducting herself in a manner to maximize potential attention from onlookers. And Lemay's declaring that Jacquie Courtney sobbed through her scenes because she couldn't be bothered to learn her dialogue.🙄

I swear, his remarkable talents as a writer were far outstripped by his prowess as a mind reader, ROTF!

To be serious, however, I think the quote about discarding a bunch of her clothes came from Virginia Dwyer, herself. After being fired, she gave an interview in Afternoon TV entitled, "I Told My Daughter, 'I Will Not Die for Them!'" The anecdote may have come from there (although I'm not sure).

Edited March 1, 20241 yr by vetsoapfan

6 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

It's like the absurd anecdote in his book about having lunch in a restaurant with Virginia Dwyer, when she was unhappy about how much he misunderstood her character. According to Lemay, she was all about preening; sitting and conducting herself in a manner to maximize potential attention from onlookers. And Lemay's declaring that Jacquie Courtney sobbed through her scenes because she couldn't be bothered to learn her dialogue.🙄

I swear, his remarkable talents as a writer were far outstripped by his prowess as a mind reader, ROTF!

NOTE NOT IN LEMAY BOOK

1 minute ago, Contessa Donatella said:

NOTE NOT IN LEMAY BOOK

I have already noted that in my previous post.

18 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Thank you, my dear!😊

It's like the absurd anecdote in his book about having lunch in a restaurant with Virginia Dwyer, when she was unhappy about how much he misunderstood her character. According to Lemay, she was all about preening; sitting and conducting herself in a manner to maximize potential attention from onlookers. And Lemay's declaring that Jacquie Courtney sobbed through her scenes because she couldn't be bothered to learn her dialogue.🙄

I swear, his remarkable talents as a writer were far outstripped by his prowess as a mind reader, ROTF!

To be serious, however, I think the quote about discarding a bunch of her clothes came from Virginia Dwyer, herself. After being fired, she gave an interview in Afternoon TV entitled, "I Told My Daughter, 'I Will Not Die for Them!'" The anecdote may have come from there (although I'm not sure).

I need to reread Eight Years in Another World and Lemay's We Love Soaps interview.  I remember him saying in his book something about meeting Dwyer in a restaurant and getting there early so he could purposely sit in her favourite seat.  I may have the specifics wrong but I remember thinking how gross it was.

Edited March 1, 20241 yr by Efulton

4 minutes ago, Efulton said:

I need to reread Eight Years in Another World and Lemay's We Love Soaps interview.  I remember him saying in his book something about meeting Dwyer in a restaurant and getting there early so he could purposely sit in her favourite seat.  I may have that wrong but I remember thinking how gross it was.

I don't specifically recall him saying he took her favorite seat, LOL, but I do remember him spinning a tall tale about how she was so intent on making herself seen by the public.

The Lemay quote which will always stand out for me comes from when he was new to daytime TV. A reporter asked him if he learned anything from the experienced writers of the genre. He snarked, "Only what NOT TO DO."

UGH. What hubris.

14 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

I don't specifically recall him saying he took her favorite seat, LOL, but I do remember him spinning a tall tale about how she was so intent on making herself seen by the public.

The Lemay quote which will always stand out for me comes from when he was new to daytime TV. A reporter asked him if he learned anything from the experienced writers of the genre. He snarked, "Only what NOT TO DO."

UGH. What hubris.

Apparently it was unintentional.

Edited March 1, 20241 yr by Efulton

46 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

You got a problem? Not at all from Lemay. Her own account, on the AWHP. 

Sorry, I misunderstood. I assumed you were referencing Lemay's book. So, was this from her daytime magazine interview or something like that?   Maybe I even misunderstood your entire post.  But does throwing things out of her closet have anything do to with Dwyer's acting skills?   Again, Donna -- I may have misunderstood your post, and maybe even misinterpreted your intent.   

4 minutes ago, Efulton said:

lol.  I need to reread the book.  My memory ain't what it used to be!

It certainly is an entertaining read!