The Politics Thread

[GoldenDogs]

And from the same article:

Romney has charged that America has lost stature abroad during Obama’s presidency. And some foreign perceptions tend to bear out that observation. In 2008, across 14 countries surveyed by the Pew Center, a median of 44 percent named the United States as the world’s leading economic power, while just 22 percent chose China. Today, only 36 percent cite America, while 41 percent believe China is in the top position.

We can debate this one all day long, Marceline. Europe's four-year love affair with Obama has more to do with his embrace of Europe's way of doing things. Here is more from that linked article:

But the GOP candidate has also espoused fiscal austerity at home, while criticizing fiscal profligacy abroad. This runs counter to majorities in seven of the eight European nations the Pew Research Center surveyed this spring who oppose further belt tightening in their home countries. Notably, only in Poland did people support more austerity. Interestingly enough, it was Poland that Romney chose to visit in late July.

Again, Obama's policies are more in line with what Europe is doing. Of course the people in Europe love him. THE PEOPLE. Not necessarily their leaders.

And how are those European fiscal policies working out for them? Just had to throw that one in there.

Anyway, we could beat this one until doomsday. The linked article offered both points of view, offering evidence to back up both our arguments.

Stalemate. Glad you found the link, though. :-)

[marceline]

Stalemate? I don't think that word means what you think it does.

You need to figure out what battle you're fighting. Are you saying that our European allies are uncomfortable with Obama or are you saying that they like Obama but it doesn't matter because they only like him because of his policies? (Which FWIW sounds like a pretty solid reason to like him.)

The only reason we could argue this until doomsday is because you are moving the goalposts. Pick an argument. You can't have both of them.

Edited September 9, 2012 by marceline

[JaneAusten]

Im not sure anyone here has indicated Obamas foreign policy or handling of foreign affairs has been exemplary or a lot of what he's done. I've read a lot of his supporters here being critical of him.. Thats the real problem I have with some members of the GOP , who insist many who do support Obama are blind to his mistakes. It would be like me making assumptions about everyone supporting Romney must be blind to his hiccups also. Not meaning to be offensive, I'm not trying to, but you brought up the issue about the US allies all disliking Obama now.

[marceline]

You bring up a good point. The last few pages of this thread have been all about Obama. I'd be intrigued to hear why Romney voters are supporting him and I'd be more intrigued to see if they can make their case without mentioning Obama. I've noticed that most Romney voters on other boards don't like Romney that much, they just hate Obama. I can easily make my case for Obama without mentioning Romney. I've seen very little evidence that Romney's supporters can do the same for their candidate.

[DRW50]

Clinton did cave a fair amount in his first term. Or not so much cave as partially cave and partially go along with issues he supported but the base didn't (like NAFTA, which helped to kill the labor force in the US). He caved on all gay rights issues. The one he didn't cave on - gun control - was what cost him the most.

Only when his back was against the wall did he start to fight back. He was better at it than Obama, but he also had a better foil, as Newt Gingrich was and is a bad supervillain caricature.

Meanwhile, Romney has now teamed up with Pat Robertson for full culture wars. Remember when everyone told us Romney would go to the middle after he won the primary?

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/09/mitt-romney-culture-war.php?ref=fpnewsfeed

[Wales2004]

In terms of this specific topic, I don't think it matters or not whether our opinions on it vary.

What matters to me at the moment is that you made a statement which included Israel and Germany. I dismissed Israel based on information I saw indicating that there was no issue.

As far as I know, Germany is part of Europe so I don't get why Germany would count but you easily dismiss the rest of Europe simply because it doesn't fit the negative point.

And, I'm sorry but I didn't know that Mitt Romney was an expert on foreign policy and diplomatic relations. Didn't he refer to Russia as this nation's number one geopolitcal foe? He also took what was supposed to have been an easy overseas photo op trip and stuck his foot in his mouth. I certainly won't forget his desire to restore Anglo-Saxon relations either.

[GoldenDogs]

I'm not moving goalposts, Marceline, I'm responding to the article that you presented that underscored our mutual points.

If you will go back and review what I said to initiate this discussion, you will see that I refered to "longtime allies" being uncomfortable, not "European allies. I never centered this debate on Europe; Europe-specific nations entered the picture with the article you linked to, which cited European opinion polls.

Discussion suddenly shifted away from "longtime allies" to strictly "European allies". I followed where you directed the conversation and commented on why certain European countries have a "love affair" with Obama. I'm not sure why you think I have somehow clouded the debate by "moving goalposts" -- I didn't introduce the off-topic European stuff, you did. I have simply responded to the information you presented.

I never claimed on one hand that European allies were uncomfortable, then posted that they loved him. I said GERMANY was uncomfortable, I never said EUROPE was uncomfortable. Though Germany is part of the European Union, Germany is still a sovereign nation. A reference to Germany is NOT a reference to the whole of Europe.

The separate point your article introduced that I commented on: YES, many European nations have a love affair with Obama. He shares European sensibilities on austerity measures... The majority of the EU swings left and so does Obama. No brainer.

Where have I moved goalposts, Marceline? What have I not been clear on?

[GoldenDogs]

Hi Jane...

I never said that anyone here claimed Obama's foreign policy was exemplary, nor did I ever claim Obama's supporters here are blind to his mistakes. Please read all comments on this issue again...

I brought up the issue of "longtime allies" uncomfortable with Obama. I never said any of our allies "disliked" him.

[GoldenDogs]

It matters to me, Wales. We are entitled to disagree, correct?

What information did you see, Wales, that indicated that my statement about Israel being uncomfortable with Obama and his foreign policy is untrue? You said before that the Israelis have said otherwise. Where is this information and could you share it with me?

What do you mean here? I never dismissed the rest of Europe. Except for addressing the points Marceline raised by introducing an article indicating widespread support of Obama by a number of European countries, I never referenced the whole of Europe in the list of countries uncomfortable with Obama and his policies, I referenced Germany. That was my intent. Germany. Merkel's Germany.

Okay, have I missed some critical event in world history where speaking of Germany means speaking of the EU as a whole? Of COURSE I didn't reference the whole of Europe when making what you feel was a "negative point"... why would I? I KNOW much of Europe loves Obama... but much of Europe wasn't central to my initial point because I was discussing "longtime allies" that were uncomfortable with Obama, not those that LOVE HIM!

Edited September 9, 2012 by GoldenDogs

[juppiter]

Um? I am a liberal but this is not true at all... Obama made a blunder. Sure, Poland didn't have a great history with its Jews and many were happy to see them go, but Poland was defeated by then and the only responsibility for the death camps goes to the Nazis.

[JaneAusten]

Ranking Obama on Foreign Policy

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/23/grading_obama_s_foreign_policy?page=full

This really didn't start out as a foreign policy discussion, more about our allies lack of support and enthusiasm for Obama, but there are 9 "experts" who grade Obama's foreign policy, which goes from meh to above average. He's been IMO mediocre, with some successes and some failures. My biggest question for Obama is has he learned at all from his mistakes. That was something JFK did when it came to foreign affairs, even in his short time as president.

[Roman]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/09/mitt-romney-obamacare-_n_1868385.html

And guess who is now saying that he will keep parts of Obama's health care plan?

[JaneAusten]

[juppiter]

He was for it... before he was against it... before he is now for it again. Of course the Democrats utterly fail to capitalize on his flip flopping because as always they are trying to lose...

[quartermainefan]

This has nothing to do with being liberal. The poles knew what was happening and were complicit in the goings on. Not all of them but enough to make the label "polish death camps" an apt description.

Edited September 9, 2012 by quartermainefan