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Loving/The City Discussion Thread

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DRW50   

Thanks.

 

I kept thinking Ava and Paul never married so of course Carly came in just in time. Poor Ava. Even with her schemes you want her to win. 

 

So this was the start of Trucker and Dinah Lee, and when they were starting to soften Dinah Lee.

 

The guy who played Matt is a casting director now.

 

http://www.ericwoodall.com/

 

 

7 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

Shana was kind of like Cecile when she first came on...then fell in love and left town...only coming back once she lost her spouse and child...so she was tortured for awhile then she ran AE with Jack for awhile...then decided she wanted to be a mom...and fell in love with the father of the baby.  Her character had a lot of shades and different phases she went though.

 

The late 1991 episodes were written by the Mary Ryan M writer...but it didn't have an identity during this late 1991 period.  I do think she was trying to reestablish the haves and havenots with the aldens and Rescotts...with Dinah Lee as the spoiler.  It wasn't bad whatsoever...but it's non descript.  She had three brief stints as headwriter..and she wasn't bad but w asnt good either.  Some people are just not cut out to he headwriter..and I guess Mary Ryan M was one.  It's a shame nowadays hacks like Higley, pratt,etc are given 1 or more years as headwriters when ok headwriters like Mary Ryan M get a few months at most at the helm.  I will say I liked that she invented Giff as a bridge between the haves and havenots...and thought he and Gwyn worked as a couple.  I do think she set up some good dynamics and plots with Dinah Lee being a brief spoiler for trucker and trisha...and that allowed months of story once she left.

 

I guess I'd mostly just seen the eras where she was more of the heroine and less like Cecile. I wish they'd kept her around to the end (although I guess they probably would have just killed her off). It didn't feel right that she had no role in any of the decimation of the Aldens. 

 

I definitely see what Munisteri was trying to do, and I think that Dinah Lee added a lot to the show and is a much fresher character than most of the young women they brought in (especially as most seemed to be generic ingenues).   I like Giff a lot - they shouldn't have ruined him. 

 

It also feels like she or Fran Sears were trying to modernize the show somewhat - the radio talk show Paul hosted, all the shots of various characters at their computers and word processors, the drug storyline. 

Edited by DRW50

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@DRW50, I sure did enjoy the shirtless Trucker scenes. Trisha ruined them though with all her screaming and pouting. Had Trucker been standing in front of me shirtless, a damn fax would be the last thing on my mind. :P

 

OK. Can someone remind me why Shana and Jack have such a tumultuous history/rivalry? I'm drawing blank right now but am very interested to know why.

 

God I didn't recognize Laura Wright at first glimpse of her. What is the story surrounding her? And I forgot to ask why Paul is wheelchair bound? Was he shot and paralyzed? Are we about be near the end of his stint on the show?

 

Stacy annoys me in everything I watch with her in it. She's such a damn whiner. Not surprised that Jack didn't stray more often. 

 

I'm gonna watch the November episode in a few. I've been so busy that I haven't found time to sit and watch all these episodes despite getting notifications when they pop up.

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DRW50   
10 hours ago, Nothin'ButAttitude said:

OK. Can someone remind me why Shana and Jack have such a tumultuous history/rivalry? I'm drawing blank right now but am very interested to know why.

 

God I didn't recognize Laura Wright at first glimpse of her. What is the story surrounding her? And I forgot to ask why Paul is wheelchair bound? Was he shot and paralyzed? Are we about be near the end of his stint on the show?

 

Stacy annoys me in everything I watch with her in it. She's such a damn whiner. Not surprised that Jack didn't stray more often. 

 

I'm gonna watch the November episode in a few. I've been so busy that I haven't found time to sit and watch all these episodes despite getting notifications when they pop up.

 

From what was said in the episode, Shana sided with Clay against Jack to try to take over Alden Enterprises. I'm not sure if there was any bad blood prior to that. 

 

Ally's story at this time was dating Matt, who was on drugs and had been abused by his stepfather. I'm not sure what he was in prison for. This story continues in the November 15 1991 episode that munecojim put up a while back. 

 

Paul was shot, yes. I'm not sure why. I guess it must have had to do with his needing money as we saw bits of in the April and May episodes. It was his last months, probably - he's in a partial February 1992 episode on munecojim's channel that must have been near the end.  

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dc11786   

As already pointed out, the Shana / Jack stuff seems to stem from the custody battle. I think there may have been animosity towards Jack because he was Dane's son.

 

Initially, Shana represented Trisha and Trucker before aligning herself with Clay to get a piece of the family fortune. In material we haven't seen, there was an additional bit to the video where Cabot apologized to Shana and left her something in his will. Clay hid this from Shana, and, by the time it came out, Shana was nasty again. Also, she and Clay had teamed up to get Dinah Lee to seduce Jack. Dinah Lee had agreed, which is something she left out of her confession to Jack. On one hand, I'm glad they are using Shana and Susan Keith. It was a bit of a disappointment to see her moping around the Alden Mansion upset over the ongoing tragedies in her life. Given what she went through, I could see Shana reverting to form and becoming cold and bitter. On the other hand, I think Shana trying to destroy Jack and Stacey's marriage is a bit much given Stacey and Shana's friendship. I hope, at least, they played the Stacey-Shana angle a bit. 

 

I do feel that the characters are more active than they were before. Trisha seems to be actively pursuing her work, while previously Trucker was secretly dealing with Monty to get baby Tommy. As I already said, I think Shana seems more involved than she was before. Also, Jack and Stacey seem front and center. When I look back on the spring episodes, a lot of the long term characters were either written out (Cabot, Isabelle, Curtis, Alex) or sidelined (Jack and Stacey). For better or worse, I think the right characters are front and center. I certainly cannot say I miss Abril, Rocky, or Rio despite being so present in those spring episodes.

 

Ally premiered on June 25th. Matt Ford appeared a few weeks before her on June 10th. Matt was homeless and was stealing from the pie shop that Kate Slavinski ran. Later, we learned that Matt had been accused of raping a young woman by his stepfather, Reverend Ford. There is some material in the episodes that have been uploaded. Reverend Ford appears at the prison to threaten Matt regarding Ally. Ally goes to Paul about getting the tape recording trying to trap Ford, which is why Paul is worried about Ally's safety. This is also why there are so many Matt-Ceara scenes. They were trying to have the two bond over their similar experiences (Ceara being an incest survivor). After the trial, Matt stays in town and his mother, Bethel, who is seen visiting Matt in one of the November episodes, becomes Isabelle Alden's personal assistant. 

 

I think the fall episodes are fine. Comparing what we've seen, I feel like characters are talking about their emotions more, or, at least, long term characters are delving more into their conflicts. There are a lot of small scenes I really like. I thought the Paul / Ally scene was excellent. Ally is a true Ava clone; putting herself in a dangerous situation for the man she loved without considering her own safety. Paul relating that to his own paralysis was a strong moment. I also really liked the moment on the porch between Matt and Ceara where Matt seems drawn to Ceara, but I'm not convinced it was romantic in nature. Similarly, I thought the Giff / Dinah Lee scenes were great. Giff was such a different character. I wasn't overly amused with the feet painting, but it provided a nice light moment. I do like how he seems to be a bridge between Trisha and Trucker. He has the passion for art like Trisha, but seems more down to earth like Trucker. The Stacey / Trisha scene was very nice. This isn't to say that the spring episodes are bad, and there are certainly low moments in the fall episodes.

 

There is at least one other clip with Rose Donovan online. She appeared at Trisha's bachelorette/bridal shower in the Chip Albers clips. 

 

I do find Stacey a lot more engaging in all of the 1991 episodes than anything else I've seen of her. 

 

Trisha's reaction to the fax machine is over the top, but the meat of the scene afterwards is strong. A clever writer would have tightened that scene to focus on the internal conflict going on between Trisha and Trucker. This couple lost two children in the span of six months. These are definitely two people who should have emotions brewing under the surface. I think Trucker's accusation about Trisha running to her family was more potent in context of the story being played out. In material we haven't seen, Trisha attempted to secure work at AE, but Jack refused to hire Trisha on the basis of nepotism alone. He flat out told her she was unqualified. In spite, Gwyn gave Trisha this art programs position. I think Trisha had a bit of reason to feel insecure. Personally, I would have grounded Trisha's reaction in Trucker shutting her out during the Tommy matter. Trucker's conflict with the Aldens is interesting; he is always employed by them, but he also has reason to hate them. While I certainly don't think Trisha and Trucker are probably acting like they did six months ago, I think there are very real reasons for them to be acting the way they are even if the past writers didn't develop them.

 

Even in Italian, I find the Linc / Zona story annoying. 

 

Regarding Mary Ryan Munisteri, I think it quickly became clear that she wasn't going to be there long. Giff's arrival signals the return of Alden University and with the presence of Ally and Matt there seems to be an attempt to build a younger set. By November 1991, SOD was stating LOVING was planning the college revamp. Based on the way the magazines get info, my guess this means the show was planning this at least by September. Walsh was in the credits by January/February 1992. 

 

Fran Sears / Addie Walsh end up bringing back most of the Aldens who were written out. Isabelle returns in November. Clay is back in January. I'm pretty sure Addie Walsh originally planned on bringing Curtis back during the summer of 1992, but Granger decided to create Leo Burnell instead. I also don't think the plan was to write off Jack in the long run. I suspect that they were going to have Jack return at the end of the Clay / Stacey storyline, but, in the turnover, Jack got lost. 

 

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DRW50   

Thanks for the info as always. So do you think they dumped Matt for Casey? 

 

Somebody else already put this on years ago but the brazenness of having a broke and homeless Gwyn wandering the streets to "Another Day in Paradise" still gets to me. And the big scene of her breaking down after she realizes how grateful she now is to be breaking into a restaurant (what was that place?) and eating snacks and drinking pilfered wine. I think Chrisine Tudor would have acted the hell out of this but I also can't really see her Gwyn being in that situation, if you know what I mean? 

 

I guess Trisha and Clay must have cast her out at this time. 

 

It starts around 7 minutes.

 

 

Is there anything around of Roya's Ava interacting with Paul in her temp return? If so I hope I see it someday...

Edited by DRW50

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3 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Thanks for the info as always. So do you think they dumped Matt for Casey? 

 

Somebody else already put this on years ago but the brazenness of having a broke and homeless Gwyn wandering the streets to "Another Day in Paradise" still gets to me. And the big scene of her breaking down after she realizes how grateful she now is to be breaking into a restaurant (what was that place?) and eating snacks and drinking pilfered wine. I think Chrisine Tudor would have acted the hell out of this but I also can't really see her Gwyn being in that situation, if you know what I mean? 

 

I guess Trisha and Clay must have cast her out at this time. 

 

It starts around 7 minutes.

 

 

Is there anything around of Roya's Ava interacting with Paul in her temp return? If so I hope I see it someday...

 

Paul wasn't yet introduced at this point. (I know the clip says 1991 - that's probably true for when it aired in Italy, but it's actually from 1990). Alex & Egypt were in Ava's orbit at this time... though recast Robert Dubac wasn't exactly sizzling the screen with them. He was good enough to wrap up Alex's story, and leave town with Egypt. Paul comes in right about then.

Edited by YurSoakinginit

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DRW50   
51 minutes ago, YurSoakinginit said:

 

Paul wasn't yet introduced at this point. (I know the clip says 1991 - that's probably true for when it aired in Italy, but it's actually from 1990). Alex & Egypt were in Ava's orbit at this time... though recast Robert Dubac wasn't exactly sizzling the screen with them. He was good enough to wrap up Alex's story, and leave town with Egypt. Paul comes in right about then.

 

Thanks. I'd wondered as I saw him in a bit of a May 1990 episode, with Dane. 

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dc11786   

From what I can gather, Paul arrives on the scene in late April / early May 1990. Roya Megnot would be playing Ava; she returned for six weeks in the spring of 1990. I don't think Ava and Paul interacted when she was in the role. Initially, Dane Hammond seeks out his old friend, Paul Slavinski, as a part of his revenge plot against the Aldens and to help Jack and Stacey. Dane gets Paul, a loan shark, to lend Rick Alden money. As we see in the May 1990 clip, Dane has Paul call in the debt so that Dane can pay it off and blackmail Rick out of Corinth. Louis knows his son is involved in the mob and is friends with Dane Hammond. At the time, Ava was actually involved with Dane. Dane also set it up so it looked like Ava and Cabot were having an affair. Ava believed Dane was dying of some (I believe) fictitious disease. Dane's lackey, Robert, paid some intern to tell Ava that one of the side effects of his medication was increased libido. Ava planned to use this to marry Dane and got as far as buying her own engagement ring and signing a pre-nuptial agreement. 

 

Typical of LOVING, you have a change of the guard around this time. The April 1990 episode is credited to Mary-Ellis Bunim and the May 1990 episode to Jacqueline Babbin. Babbin hired Joseph Breen as Paul Slavinski and brought Susan Keith back to town as Shana. With Shana back, the story starts to shift. Dane up and dumps Ava without much fanfare and Paul goes after Ava looking to get a hold of the gambling license on Harry Sowolsky's old casino. 

 

Gwyn broke into the Bistro, which was the restaurant she was working at with Norma. I do feel for Savage. I don't think they gave her much (good) to work with. The stuff with Dane had some potential, but there is not enough depth to it in the material that has made it online. If I were in charge, I would have had Ava learn about Dane's scheme from Paul and later reveal to Gwyn what Dane had done to Rick, but have Gwyn (claim) that she didn't believe what Ava said. Then, Gwyn could seek out Denny and confirm Ava's story. Secretly, Gwyn would plot with Clay to ruin Dane. 

 

I like Matt. I think it would have made more sense to have built a relationship between Matt and Giff, which would have sparked Giff's desire to seek out his own son. Then, once Casey arrived, you play up the natural tension between Giff and Casey, who hardly know each other, and Giff and Matt, a man that Giff has come to love as a son. Once Casey started pursuing Ally, you have a stronger basis for a rivalry between the two men or you could play it where Casey and Matt came to see each other as brothers and play it so that Casey fights his feelings for Ally because he doesn't want to hurt Matt. The weird part is that they had a young man, Arthur, who hung around the younger set in a recurring capacity. So it wasn't like they didn't have a use for another young male.

 

Ultimately, I think they dumped Matt because it is a half-hour soap and there was only so much space. Casey was intended to give Giff story, but they dumped Richard Cox because of another change in personnel when Fran Sears and later Addie Walsh were let go. Based on what we've seen, it's clear that crazy Giff wasn't the original characterization and was likely the result of Haidee Granger, an executive turned EP and interim head writer, who was trying to create story that she thought would generate some interest. 

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5 hours ago, DRW50 said:

 

Thanks. I'd wondered as I saw him in a bit of a May 1990 episode, with Dane. 

 

That whole Dane Hammond / covert operation was right when Paul started, though Louie had been mentioning him to Kate shortly before then (lamenting his "mob lifestyle"). Peluso was already back as Ava when they met, and of course she initially disliked him & objected to him being around her family home due to his shady past...  ;-)

 

Edited by YurSoakinginit

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DRW50   

Thanks you guys. Always appreciate getting these answers to my inane questions. I hope more of this pops up someday. I have to admit the wasted potential sometimes hangs over the episodes like a black cloud but a lot of that is cut through by the performances and because everyone is clearly trying so hard. 

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