Soaplovers

I think the problem with Marland writing a half hour soap was that he probably couldn't feature all the characters/stories that he wanted because of the half hour format.

Half hour soaps have their unique challenges where you have to create a rich world with a smaller number of characters and plots than you could on an hour long show.  There was an interview someone posted awhile back on one of the forums where Marland, Pam Long, and another writer were interviewed on TV.. and Pam Long said she found writing the half hour format harder than the hour format.

19 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

We also need to remember that Marley was a traditional soap opera ingenue, at a time when the traditional ingenue had, for the most part, fallen out of fashion -- at least in the eyes of soap opera writers. By 1985-ish, the tables had turned between ingenues and bad-girls.  Meaning that by 1985, in most cases, the bad-girl won and the ingenue was either written off or went crazy.  In Marley's case, she was written off, and then years later went crazy.   

By the mid-1980s, even the queen of writing and/or creating successful ingenues, Agnes Nixon, could not get a new ingenue to succeed on AMC.  Nixon had been highly successful writing long romances for Missy Matthews and Alice Matthews on Another World, and on AMC had created popular ingenues, Tara Martin, Nina Courtlandt, and Jenny Gardner.  But Jenny was Nixon's final successful ingenue. Even though she tried several times during and after the mid-80s to introduce such characters, the new ingenues each lost the boy to her competition (bad-girl) and were written off.   

The era of the "good-girl" was over for good.  Writers found the bad-girls more interesting and more exciting, I suppose.  A couple of years ago I was involved in an online discussion trying to determine the last two or three successful long-term ingenues on daytime.  And the only characters anyone could think of were Lily Walsh and Lily Winters.  I tend to agree.   

Jenna on AW was a fairly successful ingenue... but she had a backbone and wasn't written to be a Mary Sue and she had a fairly popular coupling with Dean in the early 90s 

6 hours ago, P.J. said:

Poor Iva, constantly being stuck making those around her comfortable with their lack of concern for her feelings. I'd forgotten she was Ellie's maid of honor. UGH. Is it just ATWT that had this obsession with exes proving there are no hurt feelings with weird proofs of "acceptance"? Attending weddings/naming of godparents/etc? It's twisted that Iva was forced to be in both her sister's weddings. And I keep thinking of Carly having to sit through Jack's wedding to Janet with this plastic smile on her face while Jack seemed to be more focused on her than his bride.

The situation with Iva is sadly a realistic thing in families.. especially back in the 80s/90s where sometimes the survivor (Iva) had to deal with being in the same room with their abuser and/or the person that hurt them.

From what I recall, one of the factors that led to Kirk/Iva breaking up was when Iva's cousin (Lenore.. I think was her name) told her that Kirk was her ex husband that left her and the kids.  So Iva rightfully told off Kirk and tried to put distance between her and Kirk.. which is a healthy response.

However, Ellie decided to go for Kirk herself at the expense of her sister Iva's feelings.. and Iva, still in people pleasing mode, tried to be the bigger person.

When viewing Iva's character arc from late 1985 into the the 1990s, I viewed Iva as having intense guilt for running away and leaving the family without a word to anyone.  Those first episodes when Emma/Iva came face to face was very cold and intense.. and I sometimes wonder if Iva being 'the bigger person' was a way for her to make up for deserting the family.

I don't know if Marland intentionally was showing that the survivor of abuse (Iva) was still being abused... but instead of it being physical/sexual.. it was more emotional abuse by the family.   

7 hours ago, Xanthe said:

I don't remember Marley's  haemosynthosis (according to the AWHP that was what it was called; as far as I can tell it is not a real disease) ever coming up again after the bone marrow transplant. When Vicky got pregnant with Steven I seem to recall that she didn't believe Jake could be his father because the theory was it was Jake who was sterile. Then late in her pregnancy she learned that Jake wasn't sterile after all, panicked, and begged her OBGYN for a prenatal paternity test that the OBGYN refused to do because it was too dangerous. 

I don't remember the order that everything shook out in. Vicky realized before Steven was born that Jake might be the father. I believe Marley offered to adopt Steven also before the baby was born. Jake didn't suspect he was Steven's father until after Steven was born and he discovered they shared the same blood type. IMO, Marley's attachment to Steven works regardless of who the father is and keeping Jamie as Steven's father is more effective because it continues to involve the Frames and Corys whereas making Jake the father seems to close the loop so that only Loves are involved. (Although I suppose that could have been mitigated if Vicky and Jamie had stayed together. And after Jamie left did Steven interact with the Corys much anyway?) 

The problem was that Marley always played second fiddle to Vicky.. because a character like Marley needed a writer that could make a character like Marley more naunced.  Vicky was easy to write so writers like Swajeski, Sloane, etc tended to write for her and use Marley as a talk to for Vicky (except for the 1991/2 period where Marley had a story arc that didn't involve Vicky so much).

17 hours ago, Khan said:

"thirtysomething" was what David Jacobs always wanted KL to be, but couldn't pull off.  His writing wasn't that deep, and his cast wasn't that good.

So David Jacob wanted KL to be a show about whiners? 

My parents watched Thirtysomething and both told me years later how almost all the characters whined and complained all the time.  It was an actual punchline for many years about the show. 

At the same time, KL in season 1 wasn't sustainable and had to evolve.  It was given ample amounts of time until it found its groove.

Nowadays the show would have been canceled a few episodes into the first season.

I think NBC had trouble with primetime soaps because they weren't looking for a show that would work..just any show that was soapy.  

Of the short lived shows NBC tried, Flamingo Road was the best of the bunch.  And it's a shame that it got canceled instead of given more of a chance to right the ship.

3 hours ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Dr Eric Jansen seemed like a Harding Lemay character to me.  And his situation with Marley (including her fertility issues) also seemed like a Harding Lemay interaction, heading toward a romance (it was dry, talky, and percolating slowly).  So I've always believed the Marley/Jansen thing was something Swakeski pulled from Lemay's storyline projection.  And then when she realized it wasn't flashy and exciting (the superficial stuff Swakeski seemed to prefer), she decided to dump the whole thing, along with the Eric Jansen character.   

When rewatching fall 1988 into mid 1989, Marley's need for a baby made perfect sense.  She didn't have the found family that Vicky had nor did she truly have a mother because Donna had to withhold any maternal instincts when around Marley because of the lie that she was her older sister and not her mother.

So when she married Jake in 1986, she finally hoped that she could have the stability/family that she never had growing up.  Jake cheating on her was the first blow to her dream, and then finding out that she couldn't have children was another huge blow to her dream.  

I wonder if Lemay intended for Jake to be the real dad of Vicky's son Steven.. and that Marley would have started to believe that Vicky's son was really her child?  There were a few hints where Bridget and I think Donna were concerned that Marley was too attached to Steven... and I figured maybe there would be a baby kidnapping that would have happened... which never came to be.

I do think Lemay would have explored Marley's psychological issues in depth had he stayed on.. because her entire identity was ripped to shreds at 18 when she found out that not only did she have a twin sister.. but that the woman she thought was her sister was actually her real mother.  There had to be resentment on Marley's part toward Donna.. and it wasn't really explored in detail except for one scene in 1989 where Marley goes off on Donna for not standing up to Reginald and being deprived of her father, mother, and sister... and I do think the 1998/1999 Marley breakdown and her torturing Donna was partly a way to lash out at Donna for not being strong enough to claim her as her daughter.

Michelle Phillip's would have been a better choice since her character on Knots basically was a replacement for Abby.  

On 11/22/2023 at 11:58 AM, Khan said:

I'd love to know more about that story's origins, not only because of how it impacted DAYS, which had been flailing for the past 3-4 years, but also because that story, along w/ Luke & Laura, helped set the tone for the genre in the '80's: less introspective, psychological drama; more thrills, more chills, more jaw-dropping twists and turns.

According to an old SOD article, I think, Gary Tomlin and Michelle Poteet Lisanti initiated it, but when PFS returned, she expanded upon it.  I wonder if Tomlin/Lisanti just had Marlena's talk-radio show, with the mysterious caller who was threatening her, but PFS decided expanding it into a serial killer tale be a good way to trim the cast and bring some excitement back to the show.

Of course, the problem I have with serial killer stories on daytime - aside from their extremely gruesome and exploitative natures - is that most clearly begin with no idea who the culprit will be; and that when TPTB do decide upon a culprit - which is usually at the halfway point, if not later - the writers tie themselves into knots trying to explain/justify how and why that character would kill so many others, to the point of making it all so darn convoluted, and leaving more questions for the viewers than answers.

Moreover, rarely do these kind of stories employ actual pathology.  IRL, serial killers have a certain type of individual that they target.  It might be that they prefer to kill members of one gender or another; or they may prefer a certain body type; or hair or eye color; or even members of a certain profession (like how Jack the Ripper supposedly targeted prostitutes) or of a certain neighborhood or socioeconomic class.  On daytime, however, serial killer victims tend to look arbitrary, with no connections that you can spot right away; and if there is a connection, it's a flimsy and preposterous one.  ("She killed everyone in Corinth because they all were in so much pain."  Yeah, as if the Zodiac killer worried over their victims' emotional issues, lol.)

 

female serial killers tend to have different motivations, different array of victims, and sometimes less messy methods for disposing of their victims.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/wicked-deeds/201906/the-unique-motives-female-serial-killers

So the motivation of the Loving murders, types of methods used to kill the victims, and the variety of victims match.

4 hours ago, Xanthe said:

My favourite objective fact that an actor was 100% wrong about was John Considine writing in his memoir that he had worked with Anne Heche on his first day as Reginald on AW in 1986. Ellen Wheeler was still in the rôle when Reginald arrived and Anne Heche did not arrive until July 1987. (I don't think Anne started playing Marley until after Reginald's death, either.)

 

Actually, Anne heche did play Marley for a few episodes in fall 1987 before coming on full time the next year.  She came after Vicky had an accident that resulted in her being in a coma.. and Marley came to visit and instantly was calling out Reginald/Michael.   She had a much handle on the role in those few days than she did when she came back as Marley full time the following year.

16 hours ago, Broderick said:

I would imagine so.  I suffered through the first episode of "Fresno" when it premiered, and I found it awfully tiresome.  If we wanted to see "situational humor" in a primetime soap format, JR Ewing, Angela Channing, and Abby were offering that weekly in a more consistent manner.  If we wanted to see dependable "high camp humor", the entire cast of Dynasty appeared to be (unintentionally) providing that.  "Fresno", as it was presented, truly didn't have anything to offer that hadn't already been around since 1980.  

The reason why Dynasty worked was because the writing and performers played it as non-camp.. and that was why it was such a memorable over the type campy show.

Fresno was all camp and played too broadly.  The key to good camp is to play it straight, have a relatable story, and have characters you care about.  Fresno offered none of that.

11 hours ago, DRW50 said:

The channel uploaded another episode I don't think has been on Youtube for a while. This doesn't feel as dead as a lot of episodes around this time period tend to feel. And there's a lot of Lyla, which is nice for me.

I thought Steve and Carol were already married at this point. Frank Runyeon is so much more natural here than he was in later years as Steve. My favorite scene in this episode is between Carol and Tom - Justin Deas is so tender with her and you wouldn't know he was the second or third Tom to have been in the part since their characters split up.

There's something very natural and special about Rita Walter compared to a lot of other people who came and went from the show by this point. 

I know this was 1981 and probably common at the time, but Carol telling her daughter to go up and down various elevator floors because she was bored/in the way is crazy.

Annie being pregnant here confuses me because I thought she was pregnant later in 1981 when Carol and Steve wanted to adopt her baby. I guess she was still pregnant then and lost the baby? How far along was she? And if Carol and Steve hadn't been together long, why did they already want a baby?

This must be one of Dana Delaney's first episodes. It's a bit surreal seeing Dana and Margaret Colin sharing dramatic scenes knowing they'd go on to so much '80s and '90s TV.

I can't remember if I've ever seen Bob with a beard before. I wonder if Don was in his, "I'm bored, I don't care," era. He looks good!

This is a pretty decent episode and it proved that the Dobsons weren't a complete disaster writing for ATWT.

I can see why P & G thought the Dobsons could work their magic on ATWT, but ATWT was in worse shape than GL was when they took over.  It was going to take a lot longer to fix ATWT than it was to fix GL.. and also I think that the viewers for ATWT were a bit older/more conservative than the viewers watching GL.

Even so, I did like the scenes between Tom/Carol... and I liked the debate that Maggie/Lyla had over John Dixon.  There was some strong elements here that never really gelled (either because of P & G having mandates, the upcoming writer strike, or the fact that the Dobsons weren't the right fit for the show).

Only toxic people stay at a company in a position of power for so long.

Good riddance.

Problem with using pop music in the 80s and thereafter is that there are so many loopholes to jump through with the royalities for the songs and also royalities to the performers that have to be paid.

I couldn't get into the show when a character like Teresa is rewarded for her stalker behavior by getting the guy that she was obsessed with and manipulated to get numerous times.

@Mona Kane Croft  

Thank you for that compliment.. it's probably due to the fact that I originally went to college to study to be a therapist so that's why I seem to have somewhat of a handle on psychological drama.

@Khan

To your point, I actually think how Iris was written in the late 80s/early 90s was pretty good.. though the last few months of 1994 derailed a lot of what made Iris tick (i.e. more plot driven then character driven).

The only silver lining of Mac's death was how it changed Rachel and Iris.. and how they interacted with one another.

Iris and Mac were on the outs due to the takeover attempt when he passed away so she had immense guilt over never resolving her issues with him.  This drastically affected her as a person for the next 5 years or so of her stint on the show.

Iris/Rachel became unlikely allies and occasionally even had fun together when they weren't bickering.  They were allies when Paulina came into the picture, when Carl had his 1991 reign of terror, and lastly when Jake was trying to take over Cory Publishing.  Iris even admitted after Mac's death that she felt concern over Rachel that she didn't understand.. but accepted.
 

However, Iris was still Iris even with the death of Mac.  She still was devoted and too wrapped up with him.. but that obsessive devotion was transferred to Cory Publishing.  As with all of her relationships/marriages in the 1970s.. her obsession with Macy and Cory Publishing caused the end of her relationship with Hank.  She missed their simple wedding because of Cory Publishing business.. and it caused him to break things off.

And also, her disapproval over Rachel/Carl was in character... but her shooting at Carl at their wedding ceremony was out of character.   Framing Carl for something that would cause Rachel to doubt he changed was more up her alley than shooting Carl.   

The ending I would have done to Iris's stint on the show would have been a big showdown between Rachel/Iris over the past.. and Iris again lamenting that Cory Publishing was given to Rachel.. that 'daddy' only cared about Rachel over her, etc.   And Rachel would have promised not to expose/turn Iris in for what she did if she left Bay City and was out of her life forever.

And we could have ended with Iris lamenting how she messed things up again and focused back on her life in NYC living the high life.

21 minutes ago, j swift said:

Speaking of Pam made my mind wander to Ada's step-children. 

I don't know if others agree with this interpretation, but it is interesting that Rachel was so possessive of the men in her life, but equally willing to share Ada.  For example, I don't recall any jealousy by Rachel of Ada's relationship with Clarice or Nancy.  But, she'd rip the eyes out of any women who looked twice at Mac, Steve, or Mitch.  I would've assumed that having lived so long as just the two of them, Rachel would have been resentful of others who preoccupied Ada's attention.

I guess she had a more mature relationship with her mother than Iris did with her father. 

Also, in going back to read older posts on this thread about the affectation that VW acquired over time playing Rachel, it struck me that Ada would've never tolerated that tone.  I recall Loretta assumed that role for a time, but Rachel needed someone to bring her back to earth sporadically.

 That's why I bought Rachel's relationship with Carl because 1993 was a year of incredible change/loss for Rachel.  She lost Ada, almost lost Cory Publishing, and then was basically pushed out by Amanda.. so she went to NYC to recharge and had Loretta as a surrogate mom.  Loretta didn't have the history with Rachel that Ada did so even if Loretta had reminded her that Carl was bad news.. Rachel wouldn't have listened.

Also, the only reason I could think of that Rachel was cool with Ada's close relationships with Nancy/Clarice, plus was accepting of her mom's marriages was because Rachel wasn't abandoned by Ada.  She was abandoned by her father so her outlook was different.  In a weird way, Rachel and Iris were more alike then either would admit... both had daddy issues, both had abandonment issues, and both didn't always parent their children effectively.

Nice to see history being respected.

Cole/Victoria sobbing in one another's arms after finding out they're 'related' was so sad..and the scene when Victoria threw her ring at Victor and blaming him for all that happened was powerful.  HT's Victoria always stood up to Victor and was so good at it.

For me, the Cole/Nina/Ryan/Victoria quadrangle was effective and ended too soon. Cole/Nina had chemistry, Nina/Ryan had chemistry, Ryan/Victoria had chemistry and Cole/Victoria had chemistry.  Plus Nina and Victoria were evenly matched in acting and verbal putdowns.

Shame he'll be saddled with sad sack AH as Victoria.  

Sharon Gabet should have been Pammy for sure.

Rachel having both half sisters in Bay City...close to one and rivals with the other.  Pammy would be more like Rachel of old.

I think the City was too focused on the new film style, new setting, and getting Morgan Fairchild instead of focusing on strong plots and good characters.

I did think over that first year, the show did smooth out some of the early rough patches.. and started to connect the characters in a found family sort of way.   Had Morgan Fairchild opted to renew her contract.. her character would have continued being intergrated into the show.  Heck still hire Jane Elliot as Tracy Quartermain because I did like the few Sydney vs Tracy scenes that we got (unless I'm imaging the two interacting with one another).

And Jocelyn was a poor subsitute for Ava.

On 11/15/2023 at 9:15 AM, Mitch64 said:

Good point, this was before or at the very beginning of the Stalker Storyline where Kim found a dead body in the woods behind her house and called Margo.  I remember Shannon being a jewell smuggler but I have no idea what became of that or the body in the woods. How could Shannon start off as a jewell smuggler and turn into such a Marland bore worried about Lily and honesty? 

John and Lisa were both red herrings in the stalker..John with the card (why would John Dixon send out cards to anyone, much less Lisa) and Lisa still being in love with Bob (which started pre Marland when I think when Harding LeMay was consulting) and doing some fun stuff like pitting Kim against Nancy (who LeMay or someone had as her usual stern self) by not telling Kim Nancy headed kidney pie or something) Lisa broke down crying telling Babs she was still in love with Bob and yes, Marland was great in dredging up the Ellen/Lisa feud of Ellen not trusting Lisa (and in one scene insulting her handwriting "Lisa, I never could read your handwriting...') fun stuff that made the characters seem more real. 

Marie was brought on as the spoiler in the Kevin/Frannie thing..but that was as about as interesting as a wet cracker, and Marie was killed during Shannon's Halloween party when she was dressed as Madonna.

Because Marland had trouble writing certain characters well... and a character like Shannon needed a different writer to really keep her interesting/popping.  If you ever saw Susan Bledsoe Horgan, who created the character of Shannon, in interviews or seen pictures of her.. you would understand how pre Marland Shannon came to be.  Very similar personalities.

Season 2 proved that the show could have focused on the rich and famous.. and still had strong characters/plots.

Claudia's emotional and mental decline that played out throughout season 2 was so well done.. and it climaxed at the start of season 3 as an effective red herring when Little Blake was kidnapped.

Krystal vs Alexis was very effective in season 2 with the two correctly sizing one another up and being more subtle in their battle.  Their catfight in season 2 was effective because there was motivation behind it (Alexis causing Krystal's miscarriage).

Sammy Jo was an effective Have not element... but I do agree that maybe Heather Locklear should have been a recast Lindsay... who would have gone after Steven romantically for revenge because she blamed him for breaking up her parents marriage.  And her schemes against Krystal in later seasons would have been effective had she been Lindsay.

Season 3 did have potential stories that were more emotionally deep.. but you could see the show veering toward the over the top tropes.

You had Adam coming on as the kidnapped son of Alexis/Blake, the introduction of Joseph's daughter Kirby (the have not element), and I do remember one heart felt scene between Krystal and Alexis once it came out that Steven was alive.

Sadly.. Steven was miscast, Adam became a creepy rapist, and Kirby was sweet.. but lacked agency.

RHOBH:

There is not one redeeming quality about Ericka.  Why is she allowed back season after season?  She offers nothing interesting.

Kyle is a professional victim.

Dorit's one nice trait are when she's with the kids... so Bravo.. film her more at home to provide layers to her.

Sutton is a control freak.. and I get why she's a control freak.  Being married to someone that made all that decisions left her in a very fragile place after the divorce... but she's become just as bad as her ex-husband in terms of the controlling tendencies.

Garcelle I think might turn against Sutton... why else go to Ericka to talk about Sutton.

Crystal was the reason for the Vegas trip.. but she was non-descript.  Why wasn't she made a friend of?  Her brother was more interesting than her...imho.

@Cat Bethenny has been delusional for a long long time.. and I don't think she's ready to admit that she's stumbled anytime she's tried to do something outside of the Housewife world.  The delusion for that one started back in season 7 when she was bemoaning being 'homeless' even though she was living in a hotel.  My late mom watched it and said 'wow.. Bethenny has lost touch with the real world if she says something like that'.

47 minutes ago, j swift said:

ITA  80s soaps used the term 'impotency' to mean a variety of male fertility and virility issues. 

The origin of my question is that we know Mac was a complicated man who was often driven by libidinal urges - but - are we to assume that he regularly cheated on Iris's Mother with Sylvie, Miriam, and Maria?  Because it is interesting that he was later written to be such a family man and an upstanding citizen.  Rachel's love really changed him, even though the focus was on how she was changed by their marriage. 

Through a modern lens, it is so sexist that Rachel was punished several times for her one indiscretion with Mitch, whereas Mac continually had a hard time keeping it in his pants.

And it made me think that perhaps Iris's romantic issues were not driven by her Electra complex issues with Mac, but her insecurities about being raised in a home with constant infidelity.   Suddenly, I am much more sympathetic to Iris's takeover attempt. 

This made me chuckle - way to hold a grudge @vetsoapfan - I'm guessing you were a huge Phillip Wainwright fan ( - kudos to AWHP for helping me research who was fired in 1975)

Also, your insightful point about the inability to distinguish opinion from fact made me think about the idea that a lot of supposed 'insider information' about relations on set may originate from fans being influenced by the allure of parasocial relationships with actors, writers, or producers, and confusing their experience with truth.

 

Iris always had a fear of abandonment.. and I do seriously think that Mac and her had an emotional incest type of relationship.  It stands to reason that the woman Iris thought was her mom probably was resentful toward Mac and to a lesser extent Iris so she withdrew any sort of attention/affection.   I'm guessing she was also a jet setter as well.

If I recall.. when she was first introduced to the show.. wasn't she a jetsetter and wasn't a present parent to Dennis?  

Watching episode 780 on Youtube, I was pleasantly surprised to see Delia's fantasy scene showed me that IK could have easily played a more upper east side Delia... and have been at ease as hostess/part owner of the Crystal Place.  Also, seeing Kathleen Tolan playing the meek secetary was the best acting she had done up to that point... maybe she would have been better playing a different role than the strong willed Mary Ryan.

Shame IK felt off playing that aspect of Delia when she came back to the role in 1982.

Season 2 was the last time that Krystle had layers that made her more than just the 'good one'.   The way she went after Alexis in the gatehouse during the catfight and the way she felt guilt over being the other woman while Claudia was in the mental hospital showed that her character still had layers.

Starting in season 3, Krystle became a stepford wife... losing all the layers/strength she had in the first 2 seasons.   In fact, right before Claudia's death in season 6... Claudia rightly called out Krystle's passiveness remarking how that was more dangerous than the people doing horrible things.