Soaplovers

57 minutes ago, te. said:

With The City and Sunset Beach it's more the fact that they're so aggressively targeted towards Generation X (ie at the time 18-35 year olds), who just wouldn't be likely to be at home to watch television when they were on, hence they missed the boat entirely. Generations and Ryan's Hope weren't specifically target towards that group; who knows who Loving was targeted towards (and of course, The View is targeted towards stay-at-home moms, which fits the time slot like a glove). If there's one good thing to say about The City, it's that it had a very strong presentation about who their audience was; if they managed to convey that in the writing can be discussed.

 

(Incidentally, I'd argue that moving what was perceived as an old-fashioned soap like Love of Life to 4:00 PM was also a bizarre move as the hausfraus who've followed that likely would've been busy with afternoon activities)

Timeslot is key to a soap.

EON, Dark Shadows, and to a lesser extent Somerset benefited from the 3 or 3:30 timeslot since the demo targets were home from school, etc.

Had affiliates not had so much power, Loving/The City should have been a late afternoon soap 

For me, TPTB created the Loving murders in order to do away with Loving and be reborn as The City... but I was more interested in seeing a post serial killer Corinth and how everyone would deal with the aftermaths of this serial killer.

And if I recall, Corinth's main economic hub was the university so I imagine with the serial killer at large, people were opting to drop out of the school and opt not to go back for future semesters.

And if enrollment drops, that affects the # of employees working at the University and affects all of the businesses that depend on students for business, etc.  

To me.. trying to rebuild/reinvent Corinth after the deaths of most of the Aldens would have been fascinating to see.

GL:

I actually liked the Nursery Rhyme stalker story 

I always thought deep down Gwyn was framing Trisha out of her anger/revenge for refusing to come back and her mental state caused her to believe it was Trisha during the killings and not herself.

And I wonder if Trisha popping up right after Jeremy's death threw Gwyneth for a loop and she decided to hide her daughter in an attempt to protect her.

Marie came on in either late spring (like May) or during the summer pre-Marland.  She was the reason why Frannie/Kevin broke up.. and Frannie partly ended up coming back to Oakdale in the spring of 1985.

The only thing that Marland really did was connect Marie/Kevin/Frannie to the Doug Cummings story.. and also use Iva as a red herring because of the Tad situation.

2 hours ago, dc11786 said:

I hadn´t considered that. I like near a smaller size city and briefly hung out a neighborhood bar so I got that kind of vibe. I do think the show always felt more vibrant though when they explored the other aspects of the city (Kimberly´s attempts to become a Broadway star, Delia purchasing the Crystal Palace, the mobsters out in Sheepshead Bayy), while I also recognize that a lot of those ¨excursion¨ type stories, for lack of a better term, may not have been what most people wanted. 

I´ve only purchased the book yesterday and read some parts a few days back on Google books (it is a limited preview). Ana Alicia´s comment were disappointing, but not surprising. In thinking about how the show was developed, with Mayer and Labine writing intense backstories for those key characters, I can see why they were key to keep those core. With that said, they could have revisited whatever they had in mind for the Ramona Gonzalez character who never had anything to do. 

I think the narrowness in the setting though played into the narrowness in the story. Not only were the Ryans and Coleridges sleeping with each other, they were all working together as well. If they had expanded their worlds a bit career wise, it would have provided more opportunity for story. Those early days are heavy on the intense emotional family drama from all the interconnections, but often the career elements weren´t always utilized to their full potential. With that said, they could have had the characters in different careers and it would still have been narrow if they didn´t actively work to expand the canvas.

I really enjoy 1980-1981 becasue it seems to try and attempt to balance the more brazen storytelling of Labine and Mayer from earlier in their careers (¨Where the Heart Is" and ¨Love of Life¨) with strong domestic drama they had come to be known for during ¨Ryan´s Hope.¨ In reflecting on 1981, I can definitely see how the show pushed some of the core characters to the edge while the elements ABC wanted (Joe/Siobhan, Michael/Kim/Rae) eclipsed what the show had been about from the beginning. 

I haven´t rewatched the show from the beginning in many years, but my teenage self, on the first go around on SoapNet, loved the first seven months, and then struggled to maintain consistent interest in the next couple of years that followed. I became much more interested around late 1979 when Faith started boozing and Kim decided to pursue Seneca and so on. It was probably the third viewing before I ¨got¨ why people thought Mary and Jack were so special. I felt that first year presented some very raw characters that had their edges shaved down over the years in order to present an idealized version of the Ryan clan. I felt some of that edge came back in the early 1980s, but not with the characters it probably should have. I was very pleased that the recently published book mentioned how unlikeable people were allowed to be, but I struggled because of the lack of consistent accountability by the family for their own.

I think Jack and Jill would have been interesting as well. I just have to wonder how well Michael Levin and Nancy Addison Altman would have done with each other given that they both seem like such strong personalities. 

Of the 1981 experiments, I liked the Judith Barcroft soap opera character arc the best.. at least from the little of it I saw.  It managed to include Seneca, Delia, and Roger into it... and I do think maybe Jill could have been incorporated into it based on the law aspect and her past ties to the other core characters.

Jill/Jack would have been lots of head butting and arguing.. which would have been a real acting workout for both Levin and Addison Altman.. and given them something to do until Leigh Kirkland and Frank came onto the scene in early 1983.

And I haven't seen much of 1982, but I just can't imagine Ilene Kristen playing Delia co-owning the Crystal Palace nor trying to fight with Hollis for air rights to the property.  Randall Edwards had a ditzy aura to her Delia.. but she was more crafty and seemed more assured as Delia then Illene was ever playing Delia.

I

I always thought the time that Roger/Holly slept together in mid 1993 after the cliffhouse story was the start of the end in terms of good storytelling for the two of them.  

I think Megan McTavish had said when she took over that she didn't understand why they were a couple again especially after the way he had raped her, kidnapped her, and dragged her through Santa Domingo.  So I understood her reasoning as to why they split them up as a couple... but the execution was wrong.

It would have been better if Holly saw Roger yelling at someone.. and it triggered her memories of what happened between them in 1979/1980.  She then realized she still had a lot to deal with and pulled away from him... which made him feel the impulse to keep pursuing her.  

Eventually they could have come to a place where they couldn't be a couple.. that the past really couldn't be forgotten and then the two co-existed in Springfield in separate stories/couplings.. but would come together if Blake had a crisis, etc.

I think Iva kept her drive and quirky/youthful fashion look until the pitchfork scene where she revealed to Lily that Rod/Josh was her dad and that she was raped.  After that happened, it seemed as though Lisa B and Marland both became intent on making Iva this sad put upon victim.

I also wonder if perhaps when Ellie was introduced in 1988 that Marland decided to difuse Iva's early personality and put that into the Ellie character.

On 11/6/2023 at 7:09 PM, Xanthe said:

I'll go out on a limb and say I didn't hate Jensen's Marley. She had the advantage of having storylines that didn't depend on Victoria (Anne's Marley, even at her peak which took a while to get to, seemed to exist chiefly to showcase Vicky) and she resembled a person and not just a line-delivery system. But Ellen's 1999 Marley was more raw and I wish that her storyline at the end had been better, that her trauma (especially vs Jake's treatment of her and any issues she had with Donna) had been treated fairly, and that she had been able to portray identical Vicky instead of towering over Jensen.

While I am at it (I've been looking at some May/June 1999 episodes) I think that Sandra Ferguson (Rinehart?) was a slightly better actor by then than she had been in her original run but even if Lumina had been a good idea, she didn't seem to do very much to make Jordan Stark's beloved Amelie interesting or compelling. (Also I did not care for Cameron at all.)

If they had not been in a hurry to wrap up the show due to the cancellation I wish that it had been possible even after the reveal that Remy was Paulina's daughter to keep Tito around rather than just make him the irredeemable villain of the piece. I liked Troy Hall and even though Tito was scamming Paulina I enjoyed the scenes where he was being sweet to her.

When Jenson first debuted in 1991, I found that she had a better handle on playing Marley then in playing Vicky.  Most likely because Jenson had played Sarah on OLTL... and her character on there was more like Marley.

I think it was also because Marley had more stuff going on when she first took over.  She was dealing with the after effects of the rape, the trial, and trying to grow her relationship with Jamie... plus trying to be able to conceive.  There was more to play then what Vicky had going on at the time (which was her growing relationship with Ryan.. that was more on the backburner).

And Marley's emotional issues started coming up again after she was taking a new fertility treatment where she assumed Paulina/Jamie were carrying on.. and then after finding out Paulina was the one to shoot Jake.. she was furious.  All of that got dropped/resolved quickly and once she started dating Dennis in mid to late 1992.. her character lost purpose and focus.

On the other hand, by mid to late 1992, Vicky's next long term story really started... which was her entanglement with Grant... and then she became the character with more going on then Marley.

To me, how I would rank the actresses playing both twins:

Marley:  Ellen 1st, Anne 2nd, and Jenson 3rd (after mid 1992, her Marley had no story).

Vicky: Anne 1st, Ellen 2nd, and Jenson 3rd (her Vicky in 1991 started off unlikable/mean... then became entitled.).

It sounds like Beacon Hill jumped too quickly into the serialized waters before audiences had a chance to care about the characters.... and introducing 19 characters in a pilot episode would be too much to keep track of right off the bat.

Also, wasn't Upstairs Downstairs still running on PBS back then?  Why make an American version when you could watch the original version on television.

RHOSLC

Monica is trash.  She has nothing to offer except showing that she's thirsty and has no place in the housewife world.  

Dubai:

It appears as though Brooks and Stansbury are on the outs as well.

@Catthe fact that Ayalan has blind loyalty to Ubah tells me that maybe she needs more therapy.  Family should not trump common sense or morals.

What I didn't understand was why didn't the show revist Jack/Jill during the time when Frank was off the canvas between fall 1981 to early 1983.  Jill barely did anything during the time Frank was off the show.

My mom was a hug Jill fan.. how she was a lawyer, independent, etc... so when I watched the reruns.. I said 'how can you admire a character that settled for being the other woman, and waiting for Frank to get his ass in gear'.  My mom said 'well I just loved the actress.'.

At least Faith was given different stories during the times when Pat was off screen.

It seemed as though 1991 had three characters that were recast during major story (Vicky/Marley, Paulina, and Grant).

Now Grant had to be recast, but I often wonder how stories would have been different had Anne Heche and Cali Timmons remained as Vicky/Marley and Paulina.

Cali's Paulina had a manipulative persona while Judi's Paulina was more tough on the outside/soft on the inside.

Anne's Vicky was more crafty while Jenson's Vicky was more chip on her shoulder.... Anne's Marley was more composed while Jenson's Marley was more frantic.

The main things I could think of that wouldn't have changed storywise was that Marley/Jamie wouldnt have broken up (since AH and Russell Todd had chemistry), and I don't think Ryan/Vicky would have had to deal with Grant as a spoiler.  And I think some of the story given to Vicky in terms of Grant would have remained with Paulina.

41 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

I was surprised in 2002/2003 when Soap Opera Digest covered the Michael / Kim / Rae story with a featured article giving the same impression that this was a very big story for the show. In retrospect, it is more likely that it was considered a big story because Michael was murdered during the summer of 1981 when ABC daytime was exploding because of Luke and Laura and ¨General Hospital¨ in general. Personally, I enjoy Kim´s stories because things happen when she was on. Her moral code is very different than most of the other characters which makes her more intersting to me. I also think the Kim / Seneca / Rae / Michael story is a bit of a variation on both the Mary / Julian / Liz / Michael story Labine & Mayer wrote on ¨Where the Heart Is¨ and the Meg / Rick / Cal story from ¨Love of Life."

I´m not sure Michael had the potential to be a longterm character. That whole grouping (Rae / Kim / Michael / Seneca) plays in such a bubble that the whole lot seemed to be limited in their story opportunities.  

Corbett ends up at ¨Search for Tomorrow¨ in late spring/early summer 1982. So there was more than enough time from his departure from ¨Ryan´s Hope¨ and his arrival on SFT to bring him back. Kelli Maroney gets a quick September, 1981, departure at the end of the Writer´s Strike upon Labine and Mayer´s return and she´s back by March, 1982, probably at ABC´s insistence. 

I think there may have been more issues about the existence of Arley in the mind of Labine and Mayer because it forced them to play that story and they probably didn´t want to or at least not explore that at that time. 

I think the show´s peak ratings were in August, 1981, when Kim gave into labor on the houseboat after either shooting the drunk vagrant (who I think was played by Robert Pasorelli) or being shot by him. 

I believe the source of this information was a poster on danfling´s board who claimed she had interned for Claire Labine on ¨Ryan´s Hope" in the early 1980s or late 1970s. She also claimed that Rae´s surname was originally Whitney, but that ABC had insisted on a change because of the Whitney clan on ¨Edge of Night." Several yars later, I remember SoapNet´s online episode summary listed Rae as Rae Whitney in the episode summaries, which I suspected might have been based on scripts. Or it was just a wild coincidence. 

In thinking of the origin of ¨Ryan´s  Hope," one of the things thhat I haven´t really seen discussed much is the impact of the original ABC idea for the series: a show set in a hospital. While dismissing the original Frank dies story was a problem, I think the adherence to the hospital based drama was also ineffective because there just doesn´t seem an intense interest from Labine and Mayer to tell that kind of show, which is interesting when you consider Labine´s 1990s run on ¨General Hospital.¨ The medical group was easily the group that faded into the woodwork in terms of the original cast and story with Ramona being the first one dropped, Clem never having a story of his own (his shining moment seems to be the hospital strike), Bucky becomes a supporting part after Reenie is dropped, and Nell and Ed die. I would have been interested to see how the show would have been shaped if there hadn´t been an insistence on a hopsital drama element. 

Bibles do not necessarily translate into what happens onscreen. Also, there may be versions of a a bible. I know that Labine had stated that the ¨Ryan´s Hope¨ bible included 100 years of the Ryan family history prior to what played out onscreen. As the show evolved, there may have been a bible for ¨A Rage to Love¨ and one for ¨Ryan´s Hope" even though they ultimately are the same thing. Onscreen, Jack and Jill had shared a romantic past prior to July, 1975. This wasn´t addressed much, but it did seem like that the show would consider pairing Jack and Jill again at some point. There was also the abandoned Roger / Mary pairing that seemed to be in the stages early on. 

It may not have been the kind of shows they had wanted to write, but it is the kind of stories that got them hired. Labine and Mayer´s earlier work on ¨Where the Heart Is" and ¨Love of Life¨ sounds much more energized and much more creative than the material in the early years of ¨Ryan´s Hope.¨ I don´t think that ABC thought they would be buying a show where an entire flashback would be spent with a drunken Michael Hawkins explaining to Helen Gallagher about how he bought her lineloum. The early days of the RH still maintain a bit of the psycho-sexual undertones that the writers had embedded into their earlier work. I find the first six months fascinating as it goes in such a different direction than the next couple years with Pat advising Bucky to avoid Faith because she was frigid, to Faith recalling a distrastous affair with her older professor (this may have been the revision to the Faith/Jack romance), and Maeve telling Jill she would never accept her as Frank´s wife because Frank had married Delia first.

The first few years is definitely strong writing, but it´s just not my favorite period. I enjoyed Nell´s right to live her final days on her terms. I thought that was beautiful especially when Maeve bluntly told Johnny, who had been disparaging Seneca for removing Nell from life support, that she hoped he would do the same for her. I think Delia´s Chinese cooking lessons affair with Roger and her later faking her pregnancy with Pat was fun. Nothing is more enjoyable for me as Ilene Kristen as Delia calling Alicia Nieves and doing her best Mary Ryan impression trying to get details out of Alicia about how to fake a her miscarriage by asking how to prove someone was faking. Another gem is Frances Foster (I think she was in the role at that point) as Miriam telling Jack that she hits Ryan because Miriam and Maeve have determined Jack is Ryan´s pal at the park in hopes that Jack will go to Mary and reveal he does care. 

As disjointed as the early 1980s can be, I do appreciate that the show doesn´t seem as tied to the slice of life material that had dominated. There is nothing wrong with it, but I found it made any attempts to try anything outside the box stand out, and not always in a good way.  The narrow focus in the early years almost seems out of place given the nature of the setting. For a show set in New York City, it often felt small. 

I grew up in Chicago.. and in a lot of ways Chicago was similar to New York City in terms of their being various neighborhoods within the city.  You tend to stay in your neighborhood for various things such as shopping, bars, and sometimes even places of employment.

So I could buy Ryan's Hope being so narrow in focus because the family had immigrated to America, open their bar, and had regulars that had coming into Ryan's Bar for decades.  That is how urban areas.. or were at that time.

I think the reason Steve/Betsy worked was because Betsy was connected to vet characters such as David, Ellen, and Kim so viewers got to see them while Betsy was heavily featured.

The Dobsons came in at the end of the Don Hughes stint on the show.. long after his more dramatic period was concluded (i.e. his marriage to Joyce).  I was surprised that they didn't make more use of Joyce.. a character that the Dobsons should have excelled at writing.

Based on the 1980 episodes I watched, the show wasn't bad.. it just didn't have the energy of GL and I don't think ATWT ever was a soap that had the wacky off beat vibe of GL to be honest

I thought I had read that the Kim/Michael/Rae climax in the summer of 1981 during the writer strike netted the show some good viewership.  

Maybe Labine had sour grapes because this wasn't her idea and that idea helped the show get a bump in viewers.  

RHOSLC:

While it's horrible that Monica had a horrible unbringing, my belief is that anything that happens before you're 18 is your parents fault.. and anything after 18 is your fault.  Monica should be in therapy and cut ties with her mother instead of having her mother around her kids.  

Also, I know people that had mothers/fathers like Monica's.. and they didn't cheat on their spouse with an inlaw, didn't get defensive anytime someone gives feedback, nor be so judgemental.

RHOBH:

Sutton is confused why she can't have a 2nd date... but I have a feeling she talks to her dates the same way she talked to her assistant... and if so, then I don't blame the men for ghosting her.

RUGT:

I mean why is anyone surprised that this franchise has gotten toxic?  You invite the likes of Brandi, Ramona, Kenya, and Gizelle onto these trips... of course, each season will be toxic.

Btw, I was rewatching season 1 of RHOBH and the one thing I noticed that was done back then was that there were episodes where the women weren't together.  They hung out with their own friends, their significant other, their kids, etc... unlike now where the women are together way too much.

Barrett could have have played the awkward fragile quality of Faith.. but like others said, she was too old to play the part.. and I imagine she would have grown bored playing the  role like Catherine Hicks did.

On 10/30/2023 at 10:13 PM, dc11786 said:

I get what you mean about Maree Cheatham being a big personality and hard to replace. If Cheatham had stayed as Stephanie, I think the character was still have been diminished. She wasn going to win in the romantic rivalry with Liza over Lloyd and a Liza/Lloyd pairing ultimately would have been the impetus for a Travis return from the dead plot. NBC casted everyone else in the story with much younger actors (Joe Lambie and Louan Gideon). The show had made Stephanie always appear older. I´m not sure what Shaffer or Cheatham would have looked like opposite Lambie. Shaffer didn´t evoke Cheatham´s Stephanie sexuality, but I don´t think there was much attempt to explore that side of Stephanie once Gary Tomlin left. 

On that note, when Stephanie´s romantic life does reemerge, it is in the that very odd romance with Bela which definitely made Stephanie come off as past her prime and desperate. The only way Louise Shaffer´s Stephanie was able to seduce Bela was through her wealth and position.  

1981 is disappointing. I think there are hints of what could be an interesting show from about April - July, 1981. The jade story is bad. It is half-baked Luke and Laura without the network of connections and relationships that ¨General Hospital¨ developed. The boxing story was well received in the press. I think it´s an interesting concept and I´d prefer that over the plane crash story I watched from 1982 in the jungles. I do feel that Brian and Suzi may have been attempting to cash in on the success of ¨Rocky¨ and ¨Fame.¨ 

Part of the issue with the plot involving Stephanie´s son is it goes through so many writers. Linda Grover and John Porterfield start it in May/June, 1980 when Brian Emerson comes looking for his biological mother with his buddy, Spence Langley. Then, Brian just decides he wants nothing to do with her before meeting her and Spence decides to claim to be Brian in order to cash in on the success. Spence impersonates Brian for a few months while romanicng ¨Dawn," a waitress at a diner who is really Wendy looking to escape her own issues with her mother. Around this time, Gabrielle Upton picks up the story and plays the reveal that Spence is just a con artist. Upton weaves Spence into the Cissie Mitchell story towards the end. Then, Harding Lemay comes in and uses the trial to have Stephanie befriend Cissie and support her in her fight for custody. This is what reignites Stephanie´s interest. By the time that Brian comes in, Don Chastain is writing the scripts. And Brian is on and Spence is written out when the dynamic between the two could have easily fueled story for a year or so.   

In the interviews I´ve read by Don Chastain from the newspaper columns of the time, Chastain seems like someone who was from the Hogan Sheffer camp of wanting men to be men and not being neutered by female charaters. I think it was an attempt to be edgy, but obviously lacking of any actual substance. Part of the issue is there doesn´t seem to be much idea of what to do with Tom. He returns as a shoulder for Sunny Adamson to cry on as I think they had been involved the last time Tom was in Henderson. They also try him with Cissie and Wendy before landing on Kathy. I suspect Tom was in Lemay´s projections, but I don´t know where he would have been storywise.  

I haven´t seen any material with Gary, but I´ve seen Stephen Burleigh in other roles and find him suitable. 

So many choices made sidelined Jo. I know a lot of people liked the Murder with Mayhem plot, but I don´t like Jo in the Jessica Fletcher role. Though, I would have been interested to see what could have happened if the show had tried doing a ¨Golden Girls¨ setup post flood with Jo and Estelle sharing a space at Liberty House with Wilma Holliday. Three different personalities sharing the space. I´m not sure how successful it would have been, but at least it would have been something different. 

I know Louise Shaffer in her Locher Room interview said her taking the part of Stephanie was a huge mistake, but that she needed the money.  She said that having her take over what after Cheatam left was a huge mistake because it didn't give the audience time to mourn/adjust.

She also did say that Cheatam infused Stephanie with a playfulness/a sexiness that she herself did not have... and mentioned that the big wigs just assumed Rae and Stephanie were rich bitch characters without realizing that both characters were a lot more naunced then just being a rich bitch.

16 minutes ago, TVFAN1144 said:

The Dobson’s did not know what to do with the history of this show.  I did not care for their writing on here. Which I don’t understand because they did good things on Guiding Light 

The Dobson's had a quirky writing style that only worked on certain soaps... and ATWT was kind of staid and conservative.. while Guiding Light had a somewhat more out there energy that worked with what the Dobson's had to offer.

1 hour ago, All My Shadows said:

Assuming that Joan or Linda would have been no-gos, Emma Samms would have been fair representation. Even Catherine Oxenburg.

I mean, Heather would have been the ONE, but...

Emma Samms still has health problems so most likely she couldn't do it even if she wanted to.. heck I would have tried for Pamela Sue Martin if you needed someone from Dynasty.

It would have made sense for Mary to have left Jack and taken Ryan with her instead of killing her off.  The show had been setting up marital issues between Mary/Jack for months and he was basically having an emotional affair with Siobhan already.

And later on, the show could have either recast Mary.. or just had Kate Mulgrew come back as Mary for visits (she did come back twice in the 80s).

It was a 2 week strike and it was about residuals for the burgeoning home video market... and it only lasted 2 weeks because the Guild accepted the low ball offer from the studios because 'home videos were an untested market'... and as we all know the WGA lost out on  money because of giving in too quickly.

On 10/19/2023 at 8:33 PM, danfling said:

I loved Ms. Sloan immediately when she was first appearing.   I thought that she had much more chemistry with Joel Crothers than Jayne Bentzen ever had.  

Ms. Sloan was my favorite Nicole, and I am sorry that she is no longer acting.

I also thought Ms. Sloan captured the essence of Nicole better than Ms Bentzen did.. and also carried herself off as more mature even though she was 29/30 when taking over the part.