Soaplovers

On 1/8/2024 at 6:38 PM, Jonathan said:

By the end of the show, Jamie Lunar transformed into a reminiscent version of past Liza. Despite the age gap between Jamie Lunar and Michael E. Knight (as well as Debbi Morgan and Darnell Williams), I didn't find it a big deal, unlike some fans and the press. Throughout her previous roles, Jamie Lunar consistently portrayed characters who seemed older than her actual age.

When the show wrote LIza in 2010 in character, JL played it very well.

There were a few moments where I could see her Liza resembling MW's Liza such as when she would roll her eyes, would look at someone disdainfully, etc.

Perhaps JL should have been a recast Mia instead.

Creative consultant: Harding Lemay...just because he would remind us to value the characters and focus on motivation.

Co-headwriters: Pam Long and Nancy Curlee.... Long would provide the energy & warmth while Curlee would provide a Tennessee williams southern gothic element

Script writers:

Melissa Salmons 

Patrick Mulcahey

Susan Dansby

Guiding Light:

Nadine was originally bought on in early 1989, and the writers made some attempt to say she was similar to Reva with her wearing red and interacting with Josh.  But eventually, she seemed more like a replacement for Nola Reardon in terms of her scheming, quirkiness, and even feuded with Vanessa.  Once Nola was bought back in 1995, Nadine was eliminated from the show.

Maeve Stoddard was the newspaper editor with a slight sarcastic/cynical edge.  Within a few months of her character being killed off, it seemed as though Long/Curlee had a recently returned Holly fill the void of the Maeve character with her running WSPR then later the Springfield Journal.. even marrying Fletcher (Maeve's widow) in the mid 90s.   Holly basically served the function that Maeve had, but the difference was that she had history and connections on the show.

16 minutes ago, j swift said:

Could you clarify?  Because it seems akin to saying the problem with musicals is all the singing.

day to day episodes are inherent to soaps

Day to day episodes help execute a vision a head writer has for a show and story.

I've noticed since the scab written episodes have started airing that we're getting more character moments, somewhat better pacing, and a bit more depth in how the plots are being carried out.

It doesn't Ron's ideas gold..but at least there seems to be more effort in making them less stupid..thus far.

9 hours ago, AbcNbc247 said:

Today was a long one. 44 minutes.

Good episode today. We got some really good character insight. Some people might find episodes like this boring, but I like them. Episodes like this provide an understanding as to why these characters act the way that they do and do the things that they do. The storytelling has become a lot more layered and that, to me is one of the best parts of the current episodes. 

I like how the idea of parenting and whether or not people were making mistakes or flat out failing as parents or step-parents was weaved into so many scenes today. It’s such a realistic dilemma that so many people must face. And I also enjoyed all the foreshadowing today. A lot of things that were brought up today can play into future story and I hope they do, especially the Eric/EJ dynamic.

I’m still impressed by the changes in EOB’s Theresa. Theresa’s finally acting like the mother that we’ve always been told that she is.

Chad/Alex was really good as well. I like that Alex finally had someone to talk to about how he’s been feeling lately. I hope we continue to see that. They’re finally giving his character more layers and chipping away at the facade that he puts on. And to me, it also seemed like they were implying that Alex is somewhat envious and sad that he’s never had the life or family that Chad has. Him playing a game with Chad and Thomas was nice to see. It always good to see characters just having fun. 

Btw, kids still play Monkey in the Middle?

And I’m looking forward to what may happen with Lucas. Not only is it time for him to get out of prison, it’s also time to end this crap with Clyde.

Again, I really hope people BTS are noticing how positive all the opinions about Days have been lately.

I read somewhere Ron C said May is when Days will kick in high gear...so doubtful.

I think part of the problem with soaps are the day to day episodes.  

The strike has shown that to be apparent since it appears as though the scab writers were basically left alone to write day to day episodes at GH and DAYs also.

How was Y & R and Bold during their strike episodes?

SLC:

I understand that Monica 'saved' the show.. but why enable a sociopath?  There needs to be a point where things have gone too far and that toxicity needs to be dealt with.

She actually turned me off the show because she gave off numerous red flags.  Thankfully, her red flags aren't in the same level as Jen Shah's red flags.. but she didn't authentic.

In fact, none of the women are authentic and it makes me miss the early days of the franchise when it wasn't so fake/produced.

Marland made the Barbara change too quickly...and I think he recognized that and pulled back in it...thus making Barbara (Babs as my late mom used to call her) a multi dimensional character.

Barbara between 1986 to the explosion was her own worst enemy...she did some not so nice things from a place of insecurity (probably in reaction to her more doormat years of pre 1986).

At first post explosions Barbara was intriguing...she was scarred and already at a low point in her life.  With better writing, she could have really evolved into a more gothic 2000s answer to Vanessa Prentiss...but alas...not to be.

21 hours ago, Khan said:

I think GL blundered in domesticating Buzz and Jenna.  You don't take someone as vixenish as Fiona Hutchinson and tie her down with a husband and kids and a business that she runs with another soccer mom.

Jenna circa 1992 to 1995 was very India esque.  

When she came back in late 1996, she was almost a different person. 

Only when she visited everyone in that well written 1998 episode after her death did she regain some of that early spirit.

And the script knew India and Jenna were alike because India said she wished she had gotten to know her and Alex laughed stating they would have had a lot to talk about.

I always thought Laura was adopted.. but she didn't know she was adopted.

That's the thing I liked about GL, they had numerous themes and would change it up.

I much prefer the 1975 to 1981 theme over the stupidity that was the 1982 disco theme.  

Y and R:  Traci vs Lauren  

AW: Iris vs Rachel, Rachel vs Alice

Days: Marlena vs Kristen

I don't think Justin Deas became over the top until the late 90s.

During ATWT and the period pre-Santa Barbara, there were some performances/roles he played that he had a sexual energy that made me think he was kind of sexy.  There were traces of that when he first started on GL in 1993, but that went away after a short time.

On the GL board, there was talk about the Dobson's and how their GL was almost the exact opposite of their work on GL and ATWT.

I would say ATWT in the 1982 and early 1983 was closer to the tone of Santa Barbara then anything seen from them on Guiding Light, or even their first stint at ATWT.  

For example, you have Barbara having past life dreams about Gunnar/James, you have Barbara in the bull ring, you have Mr. Big, and you have Dr Bob married to Miranda.   All situations that would have been just another day on Santa Barbara

16 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

In soaps, nothing is a coincidence, so it seems fitting that I got back into watching, and talking about, the Dobsons' work on GL, we hear about Bridget passing away.  I just wish more of their run was around because so much of what I have seen is top-tier, breathtakingly complex, and engrossing to watch. I often feel that the GL I prefer is messy, wild, mixed with the straight drama (similar to where the show was in the late '80s and early '90s), but somehow Bridget and Jerome got the tone so perfect in their run that they remind me just what a lost artform this more restrained, psychological touch could be.

I know you had said one of the things you noticed about Marland's GL was that his ability to write more complex characters, especially the female ones, was not as strong as the Dobsons.

And I think it's because Bridget Dobson was a complex person and because of that, she was able to write very complicated women that people either loved or didn't like... and I don't think Marland could have written them as well because he wasn't a woman and because he seemed to believe that therapy fixed everything.

I think the Dobson's figured that tapping into unresolved issues in their lives was the way to go when writing.. while Marland had a more pragmatic approach to his writing.

Case in point, an example of something the Dobson's wrote for Diane Ballard

There's an episode from 1979 where Diane finds out from Roger about something unethical that Alan did.. and she's tortured by this.  She confides in her good friend Ann about her father.. and how he had disappointed her so much by being an embezzler.  She then went on to say Alan was what she wished her father was like and that if Roger was telling her the truth, she didn't know what she'd do if her image of Alan was tainted.  It was a rare moment of emotion from Diane and a way to show behind the pragmatic nature of Diane was a human being hurt by her parent.

I think that Diane under Marland had less layers and was more of a villainess.. rather then a pragmatic anti-heroine.

25 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

What I've seen of the Dobson era at GL seems wonderful.  GL truly had a unique identity among the soaps at that time -- not a copy of Agnes Nixon's style, not as plotless as Harding Lemay's AW but still very character driven.   Does anyone have an explanation as to why the Dobson's style on ATWT seemed so extremely different than their work on GL?  It did to me, anyway.  And then when they created Santa Barbara, that show was an entirely different animal with all that comedy and camp, with dialogue full of irony, that frankly got tiring fairly quickly at least for me.   Was Santa Barbara actually what they really wanted to do at Guiding Light?  Or at ATWT?   Why was the Dobson's work on GL so wonderful, while their later work seemed to have little in common with their material at GL?  Anyone care to speculate?

From what I understood from their time at GL, the Dobson's came up with the overall plot and the monthly/weekly outlines of what was to happen.. and the script writers were given free range to do with the material what they wanted.  

Also, I think GL had a more youthful approach going by the time they took over in mid 1975 so they spent a good year or so modernizing/fixing the show.  I wish we could have seen episodes from their first year or so of their stint on GL to see what they had to work with.

ATWT, on the other hand, had a more stodgy and conservative vibe to the show.. so the Dobson's had a lot more work to do in order to fix it.  Plus, when the Dobson's did outlines at ATWT, the script writers might have been less skilled at making the day to day scripts come alive. 

The ideas from the 1980 and early 1981 were intriguing ideas, but the day to day episodes seemed stodgy and old fashion.  Even the scenes with James/Barbara were kind of formal and lacking any passion in the 1980 episodes I saw. From what others have said on here, they only went to this soap because they felt they had to.. not because they wanted to.  I think the Dobson's would have been more at home at Search for Tomorrow then at ATWT.

Santa Barbara was created outside the P & G world.. so they had less rules to abide by and they went mad scientist on their creation.   Agnes Nixon had said she created OLTL with ABC because she felt stifled by the P & G world and wanted more freedom to do a soap her way.. and I think Santa Barbara was the same for the Dobsons.

2 hours ago, Lye-C said:

This thread ought to be for fans only. You can bash JER and my soap elsewhere. 

In a forum, people are allowed to have dissenting opinions... so long as there is mutual respect between both parties.

I watched Passions when it was first came on in 1999.  It had a lot of strong elements/potential that sadly weren't followed up on or developed.

The Russell family had such a strong foundation with potential for years of story. 

 T.C had a steady job as a gym teacher, but was still resentful over the accident that caused him to give up a promising career as a professional tennis player.. and also had that shed in the backyard that he would go to.  He put all of his hopes and dreams onto his eldest daughter Whitney and kind of ignored his 2nd eldest daughter Simone.

  Eve was a successful doctor, wife, and mother.. but she felt something was missing in her life.  She had a less than stable upbringing, was a jazz singer, did drugs, and had a forbidden love/romance with Julian Crane that no one knew about.  So while she was giving her daughters the life she'd always wished she had growing up, a part of her still longed for the past.. and she was careful never to reveal her past and feelings to her husband T.C.

   Whitney was the straight A level headed eldest daughter that did everything by the book, and was driven to be the professional tennis player that her father wanted.. even if she might have secretly wanted something else for her life.  She had this drive for perfection and approval due to her parents seemingly happy marriage and her mother Eve's 'perfection'.

   Simone was the younger daughter, always feeling like she was in the shadow of her perfect older sister Whitney.  Deep down, she knew she could never be like her sister Whitney so she just lived her life.. while secretly wishing her parents loved/valued her as much as they did her older sister Whitney.

    These elements could have created years of stories for the Russel family that could have been done without repetitive scenes and hamster wheel stories.

I've been watching the last few weeks of her stint head-writing Guiding Light (December 1979) and I understand exactly why Douglas Marland said that GL was the only soap he ever inherited that was in excellent shape.

Those last few weeks neatly resolved the Holly prison story, revealed Roger was still alive, Rita revealing her affair to Ed, and Diane starting her full descent to the dark side. 

It's no wonder why Marland's first few months on GL is thought of in such a great way because he had inherited a strong show... and that was due to the Dobson's.

RIP

5 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I'm never sure how much the comments reflect viewer opinion at the time - I imagine couples like Kelly/Morgan were more fondly received than anything I've ever said about them. I can see why in the random clips it would be easy to rag on Eve but she seems alright to me, especially compared to the versions of her on ATWT around this time. 

The actress who played Lainie showed some comic flair in The Guiding Plight. I feel like Marland just wanted rid of the character, maybe because all she did before he arrived was pine for Ed (a decision that felt unnecessary considering Holly was already there for that purpose).

From what I recall reading from 1979 summaries, the Dobson's had Lainie develop a crush on Ed.. but she also was dating Floyd.

Once Marland took over, he broke Lainie/Floyd up.. paired Lainie with a guy named Carter and then left for Australia in early 1981.  I'm guessing that Marland wasn't inspired to write for her character.

I kind of liked Eve, and I think she lasted until late 1982/early 1983 before she left town.  Reason she lasted so long beyond Rita's departure was because she was tied to the Jackie story.. and also Marland was slowly reuniting her and Ben.   So I think the interim writers between Marland and Pam Long just reunited Ben/Evie.. then both just left town.   However, I think the main function for Eve was to show how Rita could potentially be as an individual if she felt secure and lvoed.  Because Eve loved her sister unconditionally, you saw Rita more relaxed and confident in her interactions with Eve.

I think it was more that ATWT was the #1 show for many many years so that when it faltered it threw P & G for a loop.

I'm thinking maybe P & G thought that GL was in a strong place so they placed Marland there and decided to place the Dobson's over at ATWT to work their magic.  I think forcing them was probably the wrong move because it sounded as though neither one wanted to head-write the show.. and perhaps it would have been better if P & G let the Dobson's pick which soap they wanted to write instead.

14 hours ago, Cat said:

BH

While lost amid the SLC finale of it all, BH's episode harked back to ye olden days of RH, showcasing a lot of the women's individual stories.

Crystal surprisingly had some stuff going on, re: her background, her dominating her brother, and an unexpectedly candid appraisal of the other women on Ozempic which leaves her comparing her body to theirs. 

Sutton had a date. It actually looked like somewhat of a success. 

Garcelle and Dorit had a face to face. I'm sure everyone will have thoughts because the subject matter is emotive. Both women expressed their viewpoint well, which was good in some,ways, but also left the situation intractable. Some corners of social media accused Garcelle of purposely trying to destroy Dorit in the eyes of the audience. Well, Dorit kind of did that herself with the 'diverse help' comment a few seasons back, but like I said, she was no pushover when it came to Garcelle's points. And overall I thought Garcelle had good points. At the end of the day, these two are oil and water (or rather fire and water signs!) and just don't mix. I also think that Garcelle has held back in past seasons before accusing anyone of microaggressions, but that last season with Diana and the bots changed her and she won't tolerate them poking her anymore. 

The standout scene for me was Kim and Kyle talking about their family dynamics and Big Kathy. Kim is never not an authentic presence and her childhood pain is close to the surface. This was the first time she openly admitted to past anger at her mother. What surprised me is Kyle, who'd usually be hero-worshipping Big Kathy as the bestest mom ever, admitted to close to the same thing by alluding to the chaos in her childhood and why she purposely went the exact opposite direction when raising her family. 

First of all, I love Julia, she is one of my faves, and I love that she is both logical, empathetic and kind. It helps balance the show IMO.

But I take your overall point about Bravo being attracted to the crazy and rewarding the villains while punishing the good. I'd like to hope that they will handle SLC and Miami with more balance than that (old seasons of RHONJ and SLC show what happens when the crazy are let out of their cage), but we will see.

I'm lowkey impressed Julia has maintained that 3 seasons and counting.

RHOBH:

Yeah....Garcelle lost me with the Karen remark.  That term is actually now low key derogatory...maybe she needs some education.  She certainly happy invalidating Dorit's mental health...maybe she should talk to her teen son.

Elizabeth seemed like someone that was kept in a bubble and I wonder if she had past mental health issues.  Why else would Alan pretend to have Jackie's baby be Elizabeth's baby.

I do think the actress opted to leave because we all know Marland was  obsessed with therapy and she would have been used for that alone during his regime.

Had Ms. Dalton opted not to leave in early 1981, she would have been written out for sure in 1983 since Gail Kobe wanted to move the show away from the Gothic elements of Dobson and Marland's works.  That was why Amanda was written out in 1983.

We know why Jackie opted to give Philip up and quite frankly I think it was fitting and karma that she perished before Phillip ever got to know she was his mother.  She was kind of selfish and vindictive.

Salt Lake City:

I bet Meredith is secretly wondering if she should have maintained her 'disengaging' iDEA that she had in season 1.

I knew Monica was not to be trust and I'm glad I was proven right.. and I hate her deceit will be rewarded because evil always gets rewarded and good is always punished.

Miami:

I respect Julia's stance that she doesn't say she's sorry unless she means it.. and I love that she tries to play devil's advocate and to think logically.  These are traits that will take you far in life, but are roadblocks on a housewife show.

Bold:

Donna Logan:  Carrie Mitchum's Donna was impulsive, but wasn't campy at all.   Her Donna seemed like a realistic character that you would see in day to day life in the 80s/early 90s.. she served as a good balance between Brooke and Katie's characteristics.   Jennifer G's Donna was a completely different character except that her Donna also didn't strive for Stephanie's approval just like Carrie's Donna.

Katie Logan:  The original Katie was shy and sweet, while Heather Tom's Katie is almost cold.  She would have made a better Donna Logan recast.

I think the character would have worked if the character of Eve was still on the show since he was a bit player back during Real Eve's (Charlotte Ross) time on the show.   

And didn't Val figure out that Laura pointed the finger at the wrong guy during the 'Laura is raped' episode?

I still remember Val's combined look of concern and resignation when she saw Laura doing the same thing at the bar as the episode was coming to a close.

Season 1 was a good season for developing the characters, but later writers totally missed the boat on mining those episodes for ideas in later seasons.

Blair on OLTL would be the top spot for recast making a character different in so many ways.