I know that the GH 1965 Thanksgiving episode exists.... does anyone have it? I would love to trade for that classic episode or watch it ! Thank you!!

Since this is the classic thread, how recent can be considered classic? Because I got a specific opinion about a 2010 storyline.

I was thinking about Sonny’s start on the show recently. Running a strip club, providing drugs for people, sleeping with barely legal Karen Wexler. For the most part he has gotten a pass for this, and I think Karen and Jagger leaving pretty soon after that story helped. As did partnering him with Luke, Brenda, and Stone.

But what if Cari Shayne had stayed on the show, and that trajectory had lasted? While not as heinous as what happened between Luke and Laura, it’s still pretty awful. Would the show have had to deal with it down the road like they did when they revisited Luke’s assault? Would they have paired him with Karen? I think that would have been possible at the time if she stayed to expand the issues between Sonny and Jagger and Karen/Jagger. If Karen hadn’t gone to PC and been killed off, but stayed or returned for a long run, would they ever have played out what he did? Maybe even with another girl that danced there?

Even when Labine was there they already made excuses and gave him a pass. I know part of it is Tony Geary did not shy away from the darkest parts of Luke, and relished when they were explored. Maurice doesn’t seem to want to do much of Sonny’s self exploration as far as stories go. I know the recent fake Jagger return used Karen as motivation, but it didn’t ring true.

Lucky, Laura, and Lulu all had stories where they had to come to terms with the darkness within Luke, and their own histories. Sonny’s kids have largely given him a pass, as have Carly and Jason for the most part.

Edited yesterday at 08:25 PM1 day by titan1978

57 minutes ago, titan1978 said:

Even when Labine was there they already made excuses and gave him a pass. I know part of it is Tony Geary did not shy away from the darkest parts of Luke, and relished when they were explored. Maurice doesn’t seem to want to do much of Sonny’s self exploration as far as stories go.

I agree with this. The Spencer vs Cassadine or Spencer/Webber vs Cassadine dynamics has always been great for GH. One of the biggest reasons why the show is so dreary now is because Spencers don't act like Spencers, Cassadines don't act like Cassadines, Webbers don't act like Webbers, and none of them feud with each other anymore.

5 hours ago, titan1978 said:

I was thinking about Sonny’s start on the show recently. Running a strip club, providing drugs for people, sleeping with barely legal Karen Wexler. For the most part he has gotten a pass for this, and I think Karen and Jagger leaving pretty soon after that story helped. As did partnering him with Luke, Brenda, and Stone.

But what if Cari Shayne had stayed on the show, and that trajectory had lasted? While not as heinous as what happened between Luke and Laura, it’s still pretty awful. Would the show have had to deal with it down the road like they did when they revisited Luke’s assault? Would they have paired him with Karen? I think that would have been possible at the time if she stayed to expand the issues between Sonny and Jagger and Karen/Jagger. If Karen hadn’t gone to PC and been killed off, but stayed or returned for a long run, would they ever have played out what he did? Maybe even with another girl that danced there?

I don't think the show would have continued the Karen/Sonny arc too far. I guess if Sonny never met Brenda? But I don't think Sonny would have been long for the show if he didn't.

In a hypothetical world where ASJ stayed on as Jagger I could see a Sonny/Brenda/Karen/Jagger quad, I suppose.

Jagger/Karen getting a happy ending and leaving made it much easier to sweep under the rug. I obviously don't condone Sonny's behavior, but I really struggle seeing a long term place for Karen or Jagger post-Stone's death. With Sonny talking care of Stone in the way he did I would assume both Karen and Jagger would have come around to him eventually.

11 hours ago, carolineg said:

Jagger/Karen getting a happy ending and leaving made it much easier to sweep under the rug. I obviously don't condone Sonny's behavior, but I really struggle seeing a long term place for Karen or Jagger post-Stone's death. With Sonny talking care of Stone in the way he did I would assume both Karen and Jagger would have come around to him eventually.

The only way I see Jagger surviving Guza would have been because at the time ASJ would have still been popular, and harder to just write him out. If Karen had survived and not been subjected to vampires, I actually could see her returning during a later era and being subjected to a return to her darkest stories, because that is where that writing team almost always went.

Drugged out and begging Sonny for attention, but I don’t think she would have survived long either. Just enough to degrade herself fully. Plus she was a doctor to slide into the Grey’s Anatomy rip off they were doing with Scrubs and the those renewed hospital characters.

I just wonder if she had survived, would we ever get a story like the ones with Lucky and Lulu where they had to confront something a modern audience would have difficulty just brushing away. Again, Tony Geary did not shy away from that type of character examination, he almost went too far in trying to make Luke reviled. And Maurice doesn’t seem to want to play that type of thing too much.

5 hours ago, titan1978 said:

The only way I see Jagger surviving Guza would have been because at the time ASJ would have still been popular, and harder to just write him out. If Karen had survived and not been subjected to vampires, I actually could see her returning during a later era and being subjected to a return to her darkest stories, because that is where that writing team almost always went.

Drugged out and begging Sonny for attention, but I don’t think she would have survived long either. Just enough to degrade herself fully. Plus she was a doctor to slide into the Grey’s Anatomy rip off they were doing with Scrubs and the those renewed hospital characters.

I just wonder if she had survived, would we ever get a story like the ones with Lucky and Lulu where they had to confront something a modern audience would have difficulty just brushing away. Again, Tony Geary did not shy away from that type of character examination, he almost went too far in trying to make Luke reviled. And Maurice doesn’t seem to want to play that type of thing too much.

I could see Karen fitting in fine in the Grey's Anatomy era especially with her previous bond to Robin.

I guess it's more I can't see a long-term Karen/Jagger pairing on screen.

I agree Mo probably doesn't want to delve into Sonny's character flaws that deeply. With the timing of Jagger/Karen's departure and then recast Karen's return there wasn't much of chance. Sonny/Brenda were just beginning and CS and ASJ were out the door. Then when Karen came back she was on PC, obviously, but Mo/Vanessa (at the time) were leaving, so forgiveness in a few scenes was the easiest way to tie it all up.

FakeJagger coming back avenging Karen didn't help. Karen, as far as we knew, had long forgiven Sonny and Jagger bringing it up felt like he was projecting his own flaws and regrets on to Sonny.

I think there might be a greater story for Sonny if someone like Brenda acknowledged the way Sonny mistreated her and started dating her so young and blah, blah. To me, at this point or any point past like 2005 lol, Sonny's actions towards Karen aren't terribly relevant for the show to deep dive. It's not condoning his behavior, but there isn't the fallout that Lucky and Lulu learning about their mother/father had.

3 minutes ago, carolineg said:

I agree Mo probably doesn't want to delve into Sonny's character flaws that deeply.

It's a huge problem. And it reared its head last year of course. I don't think Maurice faked his illness to get out of the Mulcahey story or anything, but I don't think he does well with being challenged onscreen re: Sonny anymore, if he ever did. Even if the story had unfortunate parallels to his real life that is an aspect of the character Mo himself pushed to put onscreen in the first place. But you don't need to invoke his mental illness to call out Sonny onscreen either.

3 minutes ago, carolineg said:

I think there might be a greater story for Sonny if someone like Brenda acknowledged the way Sonny mistreated her and started dating her so young and blah, blah.

I totally agree. Going back to digging up Karen and Jagger was pointless for me as well, especially with such a mediocre recast. He did have one great speech but that was more a catalyst for Mulcahey doing a larger Sonny story he didn't really get to tell. That was the only purpose White Jagger served for me.

To me Karen and Jagger fulfilled a specific function for the show in their era - find a popular young couple, any couple, to help anchor the show in very troubled times. They did that in '92/'93, and then the show moved far beyond them and evolved. I don't think they had much of a place in it beyond that, though you could've brought one back solo in another role someday. The show just had other superior (IMO) character priorities, and ofc Wagger's return flopped.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by Vee

28 minutes ago, Vee said:

It's a huge problem. And it reared its head last year of course. I don't think Maurice faked his illness to get out of the Mulcahey story or anything, but I don't think he does well with being challenged onscreen re: Sonny anymore, if he ever did. Even if the story had unfortunate parallels to his real life that is an aspect of the character Mo himself pushed to put onscreen in the first place. But you don't need to invoke his mental illness to call out Sonny onscreen either.

I totally agree. Going back to digging up Karen and Jagger was pointless for me as well, especially with such a mediocre recast. He did have one great speech but that was more a catalyst for Mulcahey doing a larger Sonny story he didn't really get to tell. That was the only purpose White Jagger served for me.

To me Karen and Jagger fulfilled a specific function for the show in their era - find a popular young couple, any couple, to help anchor the show in very troubled times. They did that in '92/'93, and then the show moved far beyond them and evolved. I don't think they had much of a place in it beyond that, though you could've brought one back solo in another role someday. The show just had other superior (IMO) character priorities, and ofc Wagger's return flopped.

I agree Mo seems to get very uncomfortable going outside of normal Sonny stories. I don't think he's faking his issues or being lazy exactly so perhaps bringing someone he's very familiar with like Vanessa might make him more at ease to play that type of story?And obviously that's no diss to Maura West who obviously is wonderful.

The Karen/Jagger rehash was too late and strange. There were backstage things happening clearly, but Sonny has mostly admitted to doing what he did to Karen. Jagger was speaking for the victim and that was annoying. It's not his fight or his pain to feel, especially 30 years later (and after their marriage ended because he cheated).

To be honest, I would have been fine never seeing Jagger or Karen again and know they lived happily ever after. They were a specific place and time like you said and while you can make room for them there isn't much of a reason to in any other era of the show.

Yeah Fake Jagger was pointless on every level. Maurice used to be able to play the complexities, but the truth is the writing was so skewed in Sonny’s favor that there were few actual reckonings. Jason got even more skewed writing and that added to the Sonny centric feeling the show had. They had no problem calling Carly out though, she had plenty of fights with Alexis, Liz, Sam, etc. But even Robin would trash Carly and then admit what Jason and Sonny did was criminal and dangerous, but not go so far as to say they were the problem.

But MB at least played the layers, even if everyone else had to be his fanclub. It’s part of what made the show so unbalanced- everyone could see he was the problem! As we have discussed before, when Michael was in jail and after, Jason and Carly were finally able to admit their lives were worse than the people they were trying to protect Michael from. And Sonny was getting darker as time went on. Plus Guza had his new favorite, Dante. The Sonny/Brenda breakup conversation was also a huge sign that things were headed in a direction of Sonny being the problem.

The whole Karen aspect is really on my mind because of how openly people discuss Luke and Laura’s terrible past together now. I know it’s been a long time since their heyday, but younger people really don’t like that they were as popular as they were. But people still give Sonny a pass, for the most part. Maybe not here as much, but certainly other forums.