GH: Classic Thread

[carolineg]

Oh, I agree that neither were root for pairings, but I thought Tracy/Ned were both more popular than Jenny/Paul individually and there was some humiliation involved in both Tracy/Ned being deceived. 

Anyhow, I think once it was decided that Jenny/Paul didn't fit into the new era of GH that Labine and Riche envisioned they just got rid of the characters ASAP.  The whole wedding switcheroo with Felica/Mac was a lame send off but I am not sure where the two really could have gone.  Paul/Jenny already seemed like a dated cliche of a couple by 1994.

[titan1978]

I thought it was pretty well known that there was bts strife after the writer’s strike, and Guza and JFP were both in agreement about the show being dark but not who the focus should be on or where the stories should go. GW went fi-core and most of the others went out on strike. I don’t know how long she would have lasted under RC, because they pretty much cleaned house of the veteran writers. But I think, as others have pointed out, that her issues were with either GW, JFP, Altman, or some combination of them.

[dc11786]

Julia Barrett is interesting to me because she is one of the few female characters who seems to escape the wrath of Levinson’s whore/Madonna complex. It’s this narrow, misogynist view which is what I would put forth why the audience struggled with characters like Jenny and Karen. Julia is essentially lusting after her friend’s husband and there appears to be actual layers there. One of my favorite scenes in the Dominique is at death door sequence is Julia realizing that she and Ned cannot work because she deserves a man that loves her like Scott loves Dominique. For that reason, I don’t necessarily think I would support Ned and Julia.

I know Jenny Eckert isn’t a beloved character, but she is goes through so many iterations that it really is hard to like her. With that said, by March, 1993, the character slowly shapes up into someone who reacts when something happens rather than just allowing it to happen. In the latest set I watched, Tracy has run down Jenny with her car in an unplanned, and unintended, hit and run. While Jenny lingers in a coma for a few days, it would appear we’ve reverted back to Jenny the victim after the version of Jenny that told of Brenda and the woman who checked into the Port Charles Hotel in order to make her paparazzi problem Ned and Julia’s problem. The more active version is back. After waking up from her coma, Jenny remembers that it was Tracy who was the driver and proceeds to blackmail Tracy in order to drop Paul’s theft charges and to grant him the divorce he has been seeking. With Tracy days away from leaving Port Charles, I guess they had no choice.

In the beginning, Jenny was very abrasive with her environmentalist outlook to the point of crashing Dawn’s funeral lunch thinking it was some cocktail party. There is almost an overcompensation by the end of 1991 acting like she is the waifish ingénue who won’t have sex with Ned because she is still a virgin and lusting after her future stepfather-in-law. I really enjoy the angst in the Ned – Jenny – Paul – Tracy scenario. Jenny and Paul aren’t running behind their spouses backs; they both just are married to the wrong person. The trajectory of Tracy and Paul’s marriage interests me because it starts with the Cartel blackmailing Paul into marrying Tracy in order to gain access to the Quartermaines, but Tracy’s late in life pregnancy complicates the tenuous dynamic by reuniting Tracy and Paul.

Regarding where to go with Jenny and Paul, I would have had Jenny embrace more of a ruthless attitude when it came to the Quartermaines even possibly going farther than she should in pursuit of securing Paul custody. I would then “reward” Jenny by bringing in a dynamic younger actress to play Susan Hornsby and let Susan make her stepmonster’s life miserable while also befriending Sly Eckert and Lucky Spencer. And Paul, as the new attorney for everybody, could have become embroiled in some of the Bradley Ward mystery and possibly positioned himself as an ally to the Wards, which could infuriate the Qs, at least initially. I don’t think Jenny and Paul could be the A-couple that carried the show, but they could be tasked with supporting an A- or B-story with their own arc or carrying their own C-story.

I think having Julia in the bigamy story would have shaded Julia too much as a villain, but I can understand why replacing Katherine in that story would make sense. I imagine that Labine ran with the fact that Damian and Katherine were already established as schemers and that positioning Katherine in the Q circle would make more sense post-Scott than other options.

Regarding Dawn and Decker, I think the issue was the merry go round of Dawns and not really reigning in Michael Watson. He’s not bad, but his comic adlibbing (I’m assuming it was adlibbing) prevented him from being the real lead in that pairing. Kurt McKinney’s Ned might be a hot mess carrying the burden of having slept with Monica (and Wendy), but it’s hard to root for Dawn and Decker when Decker could be so offputting, particularly in his relationship with Charlene. I wish at some point someone had pointed out to Decker that he was running around with a married woman after giving his mother so much grief about her own past.

I think Dawn was better off rested in 1991. Monty’s treatment of Dawn and Decker, and Dawn in particular, is a new level. Bludgeoning the heroine to death onscreen is just too much especially after staging Dawn and Decker’s engagement in the Eckert’s bakery with Dawn and Decker acting as extras to the show’s new stars, Fred and Angela Eckert. I don’t know if I have seen anything that deliberately off putting in quite some time. As much as I love the Nikki Langton story, I think the show would have been better off saying Dawn was Rick Webber’s child. Dawn as Rick’s daughter would have promoted more internal strife in Alan and Monica’s marriage and made Alan jumping into Lucy’s bed almost reasonable. In addition, as Rick’s daughter, she would have had greater ties to the canvas.

I think Bill and Holly became a necessary evil under early Riche. Tristan Rogers and Finola Hughes’ departures took a lot of wind out of that sail. I think removing Bill from his previous story grouping (Julia / Ned / Paul / Jenny) was a mistake, but given what I can only assume were substantial salaries, I can see why you’d want to play Geary with Samms rather than Crystal Carson. I’m just not sure that’s what I would have wanted. In my current viewing, Victoria has regained her sight and now Holly is declaring war against Victoria to get Bill. It is the easiest story to ignore.

On the otherhand, I do think Karen and Jagger had more legs. Jagger was joining the police academy and Karen was going to be a doctor. Those sort of professions would have easily lent themselves to the work going on during Labine’s “General Hospital.” I think Stone’s ties to Sonny would have escalated heat from Jagger and led to conflict between Stone and Jagger and Jagger and Karen. I’m not sure Scott as Karen had as much mileage as people thought, but, had she stayed, I could see some scenarios where Karen as Luke’s daughter would have complicated things. I think marrying them off and letting them go was the smart move with plans on resetting later, but I do think they had more story juice than others.

I also would add that there were just a nice intricate set of connections built across the canvas by Riche in 1992-1993 that I could easily see these characters remaining leads if Riche felt they needed to. Also, with that said, I am looking forward to the direction Labine will take the canvas while also a bit bummed to see some characters leaving that I enjoy.

[carolineg]

I feel like there could have been a way where both Julia and Ned were unwittingly involved in the marriage where no one would be the bad guy exactly, but Ned would have easily been able to tell Lois if that were the case.  I have to agree with you here.  It would have been hard to not make Julia AND Ned the bad guys.  Katherine and Ned always just felt random to me.  Marrying Ned felt like a strange move for Katherine because she just wanted money and power.  I never got the sense she really wanted Ned.

 

As I said upthread, I do believe Jagger/Karen had more legs as a couple than Jenny/Paul.  I just struggle to see what their conflict would be after Stone's death.  I can't really see them fitting in without entering into the Sonny/Brenda drama and Lily/Jax were just better interlopers than Karen/Jagger would have been.  Now bringing them back post-Sonny's departure would have been interesting on the main show when Karen came back to PC.  They should have recast Jagger then because all the story happened off screen and would have been interesting on PC to play out or on GH when you add Jason/Brenda to the mix.

[Khan]

Could I just say again how much I am floored by your analyses, @dc11786?  You bring so much insight into GH (and other shows) that, in many cases, have me re-assessing my own opinions about them?  Thank you so much for all your contributions to this board (and for God's sake, will someone PLEASE hire @dc11786 to join their show's writing staff, lol?).

[dc11786]

I have seen very little of 1994 so I can't comment much on Katherine's trajectory, but I definitely feel there was value in 1995-1996 of having Julia return. I would have had Julia had Ned's baby via artificial insemination. Julia returns in 1995 after the bigamy plot wraps up and maybe not even mention the baby at first. She could come in on some business matters and then slowly the pieces come out (preferably in May, 1995, just prior to Ned and Lois' wedding). Ned could be aware the child is his, A.J. could believe it was his, and maybe even play A.J. agreeing to play daddy in order to keep Lois from getting hurt. At some point, I'd let Labine do another sick child story to reveal the paternity well into 1996 after Stone has died, Monica is in remission, and a much more optimistic outlook was being played. 

I would make it clear though that Julia was raising the child on her own and that she had asked Ned to father the child via artificial insemination. Lois might have questioned that, but ultimately the bigger issue would be the lie. I'd even drag Monica in to remind Ned how keeping the truth about Monica / Ned ended up hurting Dawn in the long run. 

In this speculative "General Hospital," it's hard for me to say specifically what could have happened with Jagger and Karen. I think there were enough ties that you could have kept both characters in the thick of things. I would have revisited Gina with more depth than they did on the show(and you were right, she's only 13 in 1993). Given the proximity to Jason and Karen's closeness to Monica, I would have played Karen in Jason's car accident story and this would have caused tension between Jagger and Karen especially as this slowly led to Jason's descent into the mob. I probably would bring in Jagger's mom for an arc (possibly filling in some of the role of the Tammy character) probably on the verge of Jagger and Karen having their first child. Mom's presence would have Jagger question his ability to be a father especially given what happened to his own nuclear family. If you keep Scott as Karen's father, having Scott and Jagger on different sides of a legal battle would also be a situation that would cause internal strife for the couple. I would have also played Karen in the Dorman story (due to her connection to Monica and the past relationship between Alan / Rhonda) and Liz's rape story (given the Ray Conway story). I think there was story to tell, but I am not sure if it would have been compelling to anyone other than me lol

In terms of big story, I think you made the point earlier that their young marriage is something that should have easily crumbled. Both had significant reasons to rush into marriage and weren't secure enough in their places in life to be fully happy. Karen could easily been drawn to a college classmate who was more educated and tapped into a different part of Karen that Jagger had no access to. Jagger, always loving to play the hero, could have easily been swayed by a cunning manipulator posing as a damsel in distress (maybe Carly when she was in her early stages). 

Thanks for the praise. I also have to remind myself that I am looking back on something having never seen it during its original airings when I would have had to watch day to day and considered what else would have been available on the daytime landscape ("Guiding Light" was pretty solid still in 1993). I am fairly enamoured with GH of 1993 in 2024, but I am not sure if that would be the same case in 1993.

Production, though, is spectacular. I am becoming obsessed with the background score. I can see why people were raving about Marty Davich's work because it just elevates solid material to remarkable. 

[carolineg]

If you continue watching you will see Katherine's trajectory is just a mess lol.

You make a very good point about seeing something for the first time while I am looking back in hindsight.  I think it's okay they fired CC/Julia when they did, but there were so many opportunities to bring Julia back. While I do understand wanting to make a big hire like MBE work there were a lot of ways to go if you inserted Julia back into the fold with the Q's, with AJ/Ned, with Brenda, etc.  Julia just fit more organically than Katherine ever could into that Ned/Lois drama.

With Jagger and Karen there were definitely beats to play.  I just think the end result of what we got in 1996 was better than what it would have been with them.  I fear Jagger would have taken the place of Jax in the Sonny/Brenda triangle and Karen might have taken the place of Robin in the Jason Morgan story.  Obviously there were other ways to move Jagger/Karen into different orbits, but I think both of those scenarios were likely. 

I do wonder if GH were somehow able to keep ASJ/CS until 1997 if they would have been able to help stabilize PC.  I think having a younger popular established couple would have helped keep the initial idea of PC alive instead of the craziness it devolved into.

[Vee]

Nothing was going to keep Antonio Sabato on daytime in 1994. He was becoming too big too fast.

[carolineg]

Oh, for sure.  I was only speaking in a very hypothetical sense.  GH didn't even need to come back with a better offer for ASJ or Cari Shayne because they had a great teen/young adult scene without them.  

Did they offer Cari Shayne or ASJ to come back on Port Charles?  I assumed they turned it down, but I don't know if they even tried.

[dc11786]

When I first watched early PC, I found it very disjointed, unlike GH of early Riche. I think on an hour long show, it is easier to try out stories and charactes because you have the time and other layers to cover up the gaps. With a half-hour, it needs to be tighter and early PC is not tight. The characters were interesting for the most part in concept, but I don't really remember anyone doing much of note. I thought Chris was delightfully wicked, Joe was a hothead, Eve was a spitfire, and Julie seemed to be a bit spoiled. It will also be interesting to see Karen having "made it" in medicine after having that goal for so long. I just don't remember anything anyone did. 

I think Riche knew if she wanted to solidify Karen to the canvas, she needed stronger family ties. Karen and Jagger were introduced just as Riche acted as defacto headwriter in 1992 so I could see her wanting to cement Karen as part of her legacy. I'm not sure Scott was the right tactic. I think someone who's identity might have given Karen more grief (Damien Smith?) might have helped. I think Karen easily could have returned to General Hospital as a doctor, but I think it helped giving her Gail, Lee, Scott, and Serena. 

I'm not sure what could have solidified PC. I think there were other avenues I would have explored (I think I would have had Tom and Simone on PC with Ellen Morgan as an old rival of Simone's or maybe tied to Harrison Davis) and, even enjoying original flavor Karen and Jagger, I'm not sure if that would have helped. I think launching with the interns meant that everyone was getting to know each other and there were few pre-established connections. Those pre-established connections (Joe / Frank / Karen) worked well and if there was more of that, it would have helped to anchor the show. Early PC always feels like edits rather than an entire show. 

Does Labine end up getting a better handle on Jason? Levinson's younger set (outside of Karen / Jagger) seems very unsettled. I just watched prom 1993 and Brenda and Jason go together (which I think was worth pursuing), but then there is Robin off with some dude name Darren and ends up in a flirtation with some musician, Val Duncan. I can't tell if its all to establish Jason has feelings for Robin or just to give Kimberly McCullough a bit more to do. 

In my viewing, Tracy's days are numbered and her exit arc is very emotional. Tracy having to explain to Edward what she has done (mostly offscreen because I imagine they were catering to Lewis' request that he have less to do) followed by Lila rolling up on the duo and overhearing the conversation is powerful stuff. Edward attempting to bribe Jessica into dropping the case with a contribution to her future campaign for DA was interesting (a road never taken). The most heartfelt stuff though was Tracy relaying to Ned that she was the one who ran over Jenny. Kurth is also remarkable in the confession scene playing a gambit of emotions. There is a nice line in either this (or later in her exit scenes, I cheated and watched them on youtube) where Tracy tells Ned she loves him and he says he can't even remember the last time she said it. It has the aroma of Levinson's hatred for women, but between the script writers, director, and the actors, it plays out more as a confession of heartbreak by Ned rather than an accusation. I think this story (Tracy's hit and run) is one of those stories that is quintessential Riche / Levinson; it probably shouldn't work, but it is so well executed day to day that I am willing to forgive the lengths they allowed Tracy to go to. I'm dreading Tracy's last episode because she has had such a presence. 

In watching the latest twist in the Ryan Chamberlain story (the return to Broken Top for a final showdown), I am noticing how lucky Kristina Wagner was to return under Riche. During the year of Hardy/Palumbo, I don't think Felicia did more than be pregnant and eat. She has no story, no agency. In Riche's world, Felicia carries a substantial part of the show. This was a much needed shift from Monty to Riche and what Monty really needed to do in 1991 and failed to do. The show needed to be centered on strong female characters; women who could save themselves when necessary and who's men didn't dominate them (and the screentime). 

I didn't realize how emotionally brutal the Rhonda / Alan emotional affair becomes with Alan lying about being with Rhonda claiming he went to grab a bite to eat at Kelly's and then moments later Monica brushing off Amy's offer to get her food because she just came from Kelly's (where Alan hadn't been). Then, Monica tails Alan down to Jake's bar where he danced with Rhonda to Billy Ray Cyrus while Monica looms in a booth by herself. It's hard to watch, but entirely compelling. It's interesting to see Alan becoming emotionally attached to Rhonda, and Rhonda's reaction (confusion) to this relationship. 

There's been a little of the setup for Julia / AJ and they got Julia sporting a slightly different hairstyle. These front curls which seems very 1990s. Crystal Carson truly was a team player and lets Sean Kanan play a very different side to AJ. 

[carolineg]

I don't feel like I watched enough of PC to be any sort of expert.  I just think Jagger/Karen both returning might have given me more a reason to watch to at least see what they were up to.   The interns all getting to know one another was probably ahead of its time, but it wasn't terribly interesting to me.

Tying Karen to Scott was a curious decision because it happened either when Karen was practically out the door or when Kin was.  I can't recall.  Maybe both?  Lol. There wasn't a lot of drama to squeeze out of it because the main players weren't there.  

I don't think Labine ever got a great handle on Jason.  I think there was a thought to pursue Brenda/Jason, but I always thought Brenda/AJ would be the better match.  Jason doesn't do a whole lot except romance Keesha and I think you know how much airtime that got.  I don't think Jason Q and Robin was ever seriously considered at the time because Jason seemed totally clueless to Robin's romantic interest.  I think Robin's flirtations with other guys were to give KMc something more to do and the show was waiting until she looked old enough to pursue a serious romantic relationship.

I always wondered how Rhonda/Alan were supposed to end up.  It doesn't really have a satisfying conclusion and amounted to not a whole lot.

[Vee]

I watched this not long ago. IIRC Scott was already gone months before in December '93. Karen exits in March or April '94. It always struck me as odd.

[carolineg]

Thanks!

I wonder if the show thought they could use that down the road?  Or maybe they just wanted to tie up Karen's story?  It would make a lot more sense to leave the whole paternity situation unanswered so if they did bring Karen back there were multiple options for her father.

[Kane]

Scott was gone. My recollection is that shortly before Karen and Jagger's wedding, Rhonda made a call to him to tell him that he was Karen's father and then at the reception she took Karen aside and gave her a letter from Scott (I think there was a check from him in there, too). Karen wanted to go back inside and tell Lee and Gail the news, but Rhonda was like "No, it should be up to Scott whether or not they ever find out about it." So not only did Karen not get any kind of family moment with Scott, she didn't get it with Lee and Gail, either. When the reception ended, she and Jagger rode off on his motorcycle and out of Port Charles, so it was a very weird detail to tack on in the final hours of their time on the show.

[dc11786]

The problem I had with PC's early episodes was how the Scott / Lucy / Kevin stuff played out in one orbit and the interns in another. There was some crossover with an attempt at a Scott / Eve pairing and Karen being Scott's daughter, but it just feels odd. Revisiting the Dominique story with Rex Stanton and Danielle Ashley when Katherine Bell was still over at the mothership (I believe) is just an odd choice. I thought Rib Hillis was a stunning man, but he was very green in those early episodes and the attempt to do Marland's Morgan / Kelly with Jake / Lark wasn't going to work in 1998.  

Tying Karen and Scott is such an odd post note, but I do believe Riche wanted to tie Karen back to the canvas to revisit the character. I doubt the Cullitons were super interested in revisiting Karen independently. 

I know Labine has Karen in therapy with Gail to process and heal from the abuse she had suffered at Ray Conway's hands. I wonder if the question of her paternity was raised in those sessions and that this was the thread that was going to be pursued had Karen and Jagger stayed. Or maybe it was just completely as left field as it sounds. 

I know he is popular, but I haven't enjoyed Sean Kanan in 1993 or 1995 episodes. Gerald Hopkins isn't a master thesbian, but the character seems more tailored to his strenghts, the self destructive loser, while Sean Kanan's AJ just always seems sleazy to me. AJ almost always seems to be the contrast of Jason once Jason arrives and there never seems to be much too that characterization. I think Jason / Brenda / AJ with a side of Julia and Robin would have been wickedly destructive, but it would tear the characters apart in a way that Levinson seems to thrive in and would cause Labine to balk.   

Robin's June, 1993, flirtation with Val Duncan is very odd. I almost wonder if Riche had lined up a musical guest star and it fell through. The look of Val is very on point for some of the music of the time from what I reall. It's just very odd. 

I'm not there yet, but I think Rhonda / Alan / Monica was another story that reached a quick death under Labine like Karen / Sonny. I believe in the final weeks of Levinson, Monica creates a fake boyfriend, Rod, who she uses to make Alan jealous. It seems very juvenile and demeaning to Monica so I can see why Labine revealed the ruse within the first week and moved on. I can't imagine Rhonda / Alan were end game, but given the way the Q boys were treating Karen, I can't imagine what would have been said to Rhonda had she and Alan shacked up together. I do think the Ray Conway murder was the origin of the Labine / Riche argument "Is anyone capable of murder?"

Speaking of 1993 lore, do we know when Tracy was anti-choice that led Elliot to leave? I may have asked before, but I imagine the comment was made during the Jenny / Kensington story and was either early on or I missed it.