1977: Agnes Nixon interview/AMC celebrates 2,000 shows

[DRW50]

[DRW50]

The time, late August 1977 - the place, the Merv Griffin Show - the occasion, the 1977 SOAPY Award Presentations. Stepping up to the microphone is Angela Calandrillo, President of Soap Opera Digest. She says:

Soap Opera Digest is extremely pleased to have this opportunity to honor the world of daytime drama. This award for Outstanding Achievement in Daytime Drama is given by the editors of Soap Opera Digest to a writer and creator of soap operas - who has had a serial on television five days a week, 52 weeks a year, for the past 20 years - through the birth and rearing of four children. She was the head writer of "The Guiding Light" and "Another World," co-creator of "As the World Turns" and is the creator of "One Life to Live" and "All My Children."

Mys. Nixon has been applauded for introducing relevance and social consciousness to the soap opera format, while still maintaining a high level of dramatic quality. This award carries with it a scholarship, in the recipient's name, at her alma mater, Northwestern University.

It is with great enthusiasm that the editors present the 1977 special SOAPY award for Outstanding Achievement in Daytime Drama to AGNES NIXON."

Agnes Nixon smiles, accepts the trophy and responds:

"I do want to thank Soap Opera Digest for recognizing daytime and for honoring me. I couldn't have achieved anything except for all the marvelous people I have worked with."

Merv then asks Agnes to sit beside him so they can talk about soap operas...just as earlier that day, this charming and gifted lady sat with me and discussed the creation of her very successful daytime drama, "All My Children..."

Just the Creation is Not Enough

Agnes always loved words. She had studied at Northwestern's School of Speech, intending to go into acting but immediately after graduation, she obtained a job writing for a radio serial. So the spoken word became the printed word, written parts for others to speak. After writing for many soap operas, how did the creation of "All My Children" come about? As we sat comfortably in my Los Angeles hotel room, I started with that question.

Agnes thought for a moment - "Well, it's hard to say. It's hard to say any one particular thing. I have a very keen sense of family - if you mean the feeling, yes - and grandma Kate, I had a grandmother named Kate and a great-grandmother Kate. I didn't set about and say I want to write a serial that's got my grandmother Kate in it, I think it was that I just could finally write the things I wanted and was interested in and so these people just sort of came to me by osmosis. I mean creatively in the sense that there they were. I thought of many people and the warmth that I had known but strangely enough my parents were divorced. In fact - they were separated when I was three months old and so I grew up like Tad (in "All My Children") in a house where there were three generations and it was wonderful in this house. Certainly not any money - but that wonderful feeling that I think a lot of Southern people know and understand and I'm not comparing myself with Eudora Welty or Truman Capote but that feeling I think is there, the closeness and solidarity.

"Now that your characters have been established, what do you draw on for new characters who are always coming on?"

"Well, you know," Agnes said, "it happens in so many ways. There isn't just one way. We have an actor on the show now who auditions for a part he wasn't right for but he was so good; he had something about him as a person, that he suggested a character to us...I don't mean he came up to us, I mean in seeing the audition it came to us...and that's very unusual. But then, the character of Donna Beck, came from reading in the NY Times the 'Little Ladies of the Night' in the magazine section, and at the same time we have a consulting psychiatrist on the show, who with her husband - a psychiatrist, too, practice at Haverford State Hospital, and she gave me several articles from psychiatric journals about teenage prostitutions, as a result of the runaway, of abused children, so, that's how that started. Other things can be, a dream or a line of conversation overheard in the supermarket. It's whatever you know; it's like the grain of sand in the oyster and that's what's exciting about it.

"But you created the whole thing yourself, didn't you?"

"Well, I have writers who work with me...they have a great input too, so that's why I said 'we' at the audition because everyone was saying 'gee, who could he be' I mean, it's very much an ensemble effort in that sense - yes, I'm the final creative person but I just can't praise enough the contribution from everybody."

When I asked, "How far in advance do you put it on the board?" Agnes explained, "Well, I write a long term outline, projection we call it, a year's projection - and the last one I wrote I turned in in June. I sent it to ABC and to the writers and the producer and then we got together and talked about it. But that one was about 75 pages - and inevitably I'm going to redo that in about eight months because that's like a road map of where one is going but then it's in those daily outlines, and we do very extensive outlines for an hour show now, our daily outlines run about 12 pages, that's the first step for long term. Then, on the daily outline basis, they go to the writers and copies go to ABC and to production about 7 or 8 weeks ahead of taping, the time depends on whether we're trying to get ahead for a vacation or a long weekend but then the writers have leeway."

I had something definite in mind when I asked, "Then you know, let us say that five months form now a certain character will no longer be on the show?"

Agnes knew what I meant, "Oh, in the case of Francesca James (Kitty) I knew it because she told us she did not wish to renew her contract so that was a superimposition; outside forces superimposing something on a story; we would have loved to have her stay and because she was so good and so unique, we felt that it would be difficult to recast and since death is a part of life, and people were very unhappy about Kitty dying but we did get some wonderful letters from people saying 'you did it in the right way and it was beautiful,' so that I knew. But it's all open and whenever a new idea comes; and that's what we're always looking for in the daily episodes, to keep them fresh and original, so that we can take quite a sharp turn from that long term but in general I know where I expect to be in five months; but if some better idea presents itself I won't be there, I'll be somewhere else and maybe I'll be at that spot in seven months."

"But do you ever say, 'This character is dead-ended and we really have no place to go with him but out?"

The explanation should interest viewers: "Only...if the dead-end is built in and the character knows it, as in the case of Jason Maxwell, a number of years ago on "AMC" he was murdered and we had a whodunit, and the actor knew that when he came in. We try to tell people so they can plan their lives, too. If we know that, I mean if we really know a certain story is going a certain way and the character is brought in only for a limited function at a time - we will tell them. Marvelous Eileen Herlie - actually wanted only to do it for six months, but we persuaded her to stay until after Kitty's death."

"So now that Kitty is gone there's no room in the storyline for Mrs. Lum."

"No, Eileen really wanted to leave, she's really a theatrical actress on Broadway and so she actually did us a favor of staying a little longer."

A question I had been wondering about for a long time: "What is behind the decision you made to go to an hour?"

Laughing Agnes said: "A lot of pressure from the network...no, they know about it, we blast about it, they say 'well, you finally did it.' We talked a lot but it was two years before we went to an hour."

"It's so much more difficult for you and for the people who are on the show and I suppose now that's the way all the soaps are going to end up."

Agnes was anxious for us to understand, "Well, let me explain, they pressured but they weren't going to make me and they weren't going to say, 'well, you've got to do it.' The definitive factor...what my concern was, you can have more actors and tell more stories, you just have to hire more people to write the scripts and you give more people jobs but my concern was the limitations of space and how to keep the show from dragging - you can't tell five stories if you've only got four sets, which we had. So the networks said, if you go to an hour, we'll move "One Life", we will tear the wall down and you can have 8 sets and a couple of sections. Then I really had no reason to say 'no.' I mean, if I was afraid to work any harder then I shouldn't stay in the business."

"But the criticism that's been leveled at some of the shows, I'm not saying yours in particular, you said it yourself - that it could drag."

"Yes," Agnes agreed but said, "to this point I don't feel that we have and the letters we have gotten certainly said that we haven't. We are telling two more stories. We have now six stories going at all times and hired more people. I think we are telling a very fast paced story, a lot happens, it isn't just forward movement of the story but what I call internal movement, like the thing that happened the other day. Tara and Phil had a violent argument at the beginning, and you saw it, and it took you back, but it was movement...you don't always have to race forward with the plot as long as you keep things going - that's my feeling. Some people don't like AMC, I'm sure, and they don't like that approach but that's the way I write. Some people have their favorite authors, their favorite soap operas. You can't please everyone."

Busy people seem to be constantly setting out on on new projects - was Agnes? "With all the things that you do now, do you contemplate anything else, do you ever have in mind creating another soap opera?"

"No. I really don't, because you know," she laughed, "I'm getting older - and besides that, with an hour - it's a full time job - it's a super full-time job to do it; constantly keeping it fresh, and keeping yourself fresh about it. I just feel that it would suffer...we're like a family all of us. This is from them."

Agnes showed me a beautiful gold charm she wears - a replica of the book pictured on the show and on the minature page, it was lovingly inscribed from the cast to Agnes.

"Do you think that the criticism, it's not so prevalent now but it was at one time that soap operas were unreal, is unfair, taken as a whole?"

"Well I think it's incorrect, because soap opera is the cliche denigration used by all people who can't think of anything else. You see it about a Broadway play or a novel and then it gets soapy. I mean, could I put Son of Sam in a soap opera? No way! What one reads in the daily newspaper is so much worse - what goes on in real life. I don't care what the critics say, I know the people who view it are interested, it serves a function. It's not a Broadway show, it's not "Chorus Line", it's not Shakespeare, it's soap opera - and it does a very good job, I think."

I comments, "Well, some of the actors themselves resent the term soap operas." Agnes didn't agree. But I explained, "They feel it's a put-down and it's true. A reviewer will say 'Oh, it was so bad it was like a soap opera.'

"Absolutely!" Agnes now agreed, "And you are never going to change their minds. So why bother? Life's too short, we know we work very hard, we have standards, goals, we do public service when we can, and are educational at times."

I quickly reassured Agnes of the support and confidence of her many fans and those of her show, "All My Children."

Ruth J Gordon

[EricMontreal22]

I'll get back after reading this--but thanks SO much for posting it!

I always wonder if there was some resentment to AMC and the ABC soaps in general in the mid 70s by old fans. Or maybe it was juyst that they were still relatively new--but in most of the soap books from the 70s I've read they kinda gloss over AMC without much interest--focusing much more on the CBS shows and AW and Days in general.

(I lover how older soap mags seem to always comment so much more on describing the fashion the actors are wearing, etc The journalism lingo is also much more ornate--you'd rarely read things like "as we sat comfortably in my Los Angeles hotel room" in those types of mags now unless it was fiction)

[DRW50]

There probably was some resentment, that and I think AMC and the ABC soaps in general were seen as still finding their feet.

Thanks for reading this. I post this hoping people will have interest and even though I'm sure you may already know a lot of what she says in the interview I thought you'd enjoy it since you're a fan of her work.

They seem to have much more detail and are willing to go their own way. They don't pretend to be some kind of annoying common voice, like Carolyn Hinsey and her talking down to readers. But then a lot of media now seem to think people are stupid...

[EricMontreal22]

That's exactly it! I think they also feel it sounds more--well the way newspapers, etc, are all much more to the point and even brief, but I don't think it does much good for soap opera criticism if it's not in your voice.

Anyway that was a great read--I had no idea that Eileen left as Myrtle for a while. And of course Francesca James returned as Kelly not that long after. As usual I think Agnes tries to be too nice (which is the way she is, so can't be helped) when she makes the point that ABC didn't force them to go to an hour--though it's interesting about the sets (poor OLTL ). I'd also love to find out sometime why she then later decided to make another soap opera with Loving.

Also always find it of interest when they give her official co creator credit on ATWT--since I don't think it ever said that in the actual credits, though it seems to have been true (though then she went to GL and Bill Bell helped Irna a lot at ATWT)

[DRW50]

I wonder if by then she felt AMC was in strong shape and she wanted the chance to do another half-hour soap.

She was diplomatic but I thought the interview was a bit more forceful than some of her others, perhaps because, as you mentioned, AMC had gotten some criticism. She repeatedly says the old if people don't like it what can I do about it.

I didn't know Myrtle had ever left either. I wonder who the actor was they created a role for when he wasn't right for another part.

Thanks for reading. I know some of this stuff probably starts to blur together or is dull but I figure there are soap fans here who want to know the history or what isn't easily available and this can shed some light. I have some stuff from 71 or so with Ellen Holly and with Robin Strasser, I'm going to try to post that in the next few days.

[EricMontreal22]

I do find it amusing she says they couldn't do a Summer of Sam story--and of course a few years later serial killer stories (starting with DAYS?) became pretty standard. Not quite on the level of Summer of Sam or that brutal, but...

[DRW50]

You're right. Of course I don't think AMC ever did any.

For some reason I didn't think Devon was on the show at this time. I guess she was one of the characters brought in when they expanded to an hour.

Do you think the AMC of the 70s most reflected her vision?

[Paul Raven]

In 77, the following characters were added;

Tom,Mark,Ellen,Billy Clyde,Devon,Harlan,Dottie,Carl,Ray,Estelle,Claudette,David

In 76,perhaps in preparation for the expansion,several new characters were added.

Brooke,Myrtle,Donna,Benny,Christina,Dan.

The only major characters to leave around that time were Ann Tyler and Margo Flax.

What happened to Nigel Fargate,Myrtle's husband?

[EricMontreal22]

Well, it was, I guess, and she seemed ok with Wisner Washam having more control (wasn't that around when the new EP, Babbin came in who felt she should "modernize" the dialogue? I believe that's when Agnes stopped being co-EP. There was an interesting interview with her posted here a while back). That said, maybe she felt she wouldn't have to focus quite as much on Loving with Marland as official HW (and originally of course it was meant to be co created with Dan Wakefield, the author of All her Children and novelist behind the teen drama James at 15 and we're not sure quite what happened there--with Wakefield or Marland leaving after such a short time--of course Marland was busy around the same time with New Day in Eden too--but perhaps it caused Agnes to have to focus on the show more than she had planned).

Right, that's a good point. It certainly was a time when soaps were changing--the GH explosion was about to happen and P&G soon would begin--if they hadn't already--to attempt to modernize ATWT and GL.

HAHA well it might blur together a bit for me but I don't find any of it dull--I live for reading this kinda stuff--so it's appreciated.

[EricMontreal22]

Devon was there by Fall 1978 at Tom and Erica's wedding (the episode's on youtube) so she prob was added just around then.

And actually I think AMC managed to somehow stay away from serial killer storylines till the mess of a Satin Slayer one but certainly they haven't done the dozen or so some soaps seem to have (DAYS prob holds the record but OLTL the last little while would be up there...)

Yeah I do think 70s AMC most reflected her vision--a reason I'd like to be able to see more of it. That said I think probably late 70s AMC more than early--for some reason.

[DRW50]

Thanks Paul Raven, for the character list. It's interesting that so many soaps, when they expanded to an hour, gained characters who went on to be very important to their soaps. AMC had Brooke and Tom and Ellen among others. OLTL had Karen and I think Jenny (although that might have been 45 minutes). GH had Rick and Monica and Jeff.

Devon must have been on the show in late 77 as she's in the photo at the top of the page.

I had totally forgotten about the Satin Slayer story What a classic that was, huh.

I see what you mean about later 70s AMC. I think that is when more complex issues began to come in. I'd like to see any of that decade but especially the earlier stuff as I'd like to see more of Amy Tyler.

Thanks again for taking an interest in this stuff. It's great to be at a board where people are interested in a soap's past.

[EricMontreal22]

I think Karen, etc, for One Life was at the 45 min mark--I always forget it was 45 mins with GH. They became 45 mins pre AMC's hour right but AMC became an hour before them? Anyway it's an interesting idea--when I briefly lived in England you get used to tv shows starting at what seemed odd times--ten past the hour sometimes, etc. It seems so strange to think of a North American commercial network starting anything at the 15 minutes pre or post mark but of course that was the whole reasoning--to keep people watching.

The first half of the 70s anyway, for AMC seems really quite simplistic--huge focus on the young love, and then some on the juxtaposition of the Tylers and their money, etc. I mean a lot went on from all I've read and seen but as you say it didn't really get more into heavier issues till after-- That's a HUGE generalization, but it just feels to me like a simpler show (partly of course as there are less major characters so it has even more of that small town feel). Agnes certainly never went gothic till after the expansion with the whole Cortland storyline. That said I think (again from the tiny bits I've seen) the transition was done well and I love both eras.

There's that great Amy Tyler episode on Agnes' website (I wish she'd find more old clips to put up--not that I've gone in some while, I should check it out), and then she's featured in one of the other 5 1970-1971 episodes that's aired--I think one of the ones in the I Love Lucci marathon. I admit I LOVE those clips--the same way I love that 1969 OLTL--it just seems such pure soap to me, and very basic in terms of--well everything yet it draws you right in. But then again I spent nearly all my teenaged years trying to find out as much about both soaps history--but particularly AMC's and to see ANY clips (Daytime to Remember was--pre youtube--a revelation, like a dream come true) that I just eat that stuff up--as I do articles and interviews like this.

[DRW50]

For some reason I thought AMC was still a half hour before they went to 45 but I'm not sure. I posted an article a week or two ago where they talked about the reasons for the change (mostly to dent Another World) but I can't remember about AMC.

You're right that the early 70s does seem more traditional. Class systems, puppy love, and so on. It's mostly some things like Nick, Amy, which I'd want to see. And Phoebe at her worst. The later 70s sounds more complex, it's just some of the stuff I think I might not enjoy as much, as by then they'd started the string of Tara recasts, her story with Phil and Chuck was winding down, Donna's stories seem kind of heavy, there was the Christina stuff which seems odd...but I'd still love to watch it though. And AMC seemed to be able to relatively seamlessly transition out some of their original players with new, in some cases more vibrant personalities.

Yes I remember what a godsend Daytime to Remember was. I wish the ratings had been better. I don't remember the AMC ones as much as the OLTL ones, which I just loved (although the GH ones were the ones which were panned -- whoever thought we needed to see Demi Moore I don't have any idea), but it was nice to get to see some AMC moments I thought I'd only be able to read about, like Tom's furiously confronting Erica over taking birth control pills.

[EricMontreal22]

I'm trying to find exact dates but the 45 minute thing happened in July 1976, and AMC went to an hour in June 1977. I was wrong about the test week of hour eps for AMC in 1975--it actually pushed AMC to the first slot when they were finished as a lead in to Ryan's Hope--then in Jan 1977 they switched Ryan's and AMC for some reason putting AMC back to its original start time--where it still remains. OLTL moved to a full hour in Jan 1978.

In regards to OLTL's expnasion Karen's story started in ernest in 1977 (and that's when Judith Light came on) when it was 45 mins, but right after the hour switch they did basically bring in Tina right after the switch partly as it was felt they didn't have a strong enough youth element on the show at the time )particularly sexually charged youth).

AMC's move to an hour did coincide with it briefly becoming the top rated soap, so I guess it worked well unlike some other shows that suffered dips for a while when they transitioned (Y&R, etc) I know Schemering says that the production values, which had been poor, became excellent with the move and they started having more interesting male characters, which I guess he felt they'd suffered from. It was also around then that Agnes Nixon really started to bring in her more over the top Dickensian comic characters (though she always had some like Myrtle, etc) for which she became known for, but I know some soap fans disliked (Schemering says some old time soap fans found AMC in the 70s jarring how one scene would be young ernest love, then you'd have a more comic scene, etc--again which is very Dickens where if anything the young heroes are often kinda boring--but I appreciate that on AMC.) Although she had started having some over the top comic characters like that as far back as Another World (I forget the character name but one was played by the guy she later hired as Vinnie for One Life)

And yeah, the days of Youtube make it easy to forget what a big deal Daytime to Remember was--especially since all of the episodes (even the ones shown over two half hour episodes) were edited (that Tom discovers the pills episode was repeated for I Love Lucci's marathon and the odd thing is while the Lucci marathon had several scenes cut out of the Daytime to Remember airing, one of the opening scenes is different...). One Life really got the short end of the stick--one of GH's weeks shoulda gone to One Life, but Iguess they were leading up to a GH spin off. I thought ratings were about as good as The City, which was better than most expected?

It was great seeing (again edited) that 1976 One Life to Live ep where Kevin's born, with Nancy as Dorian, etc--it's funny until the Karen Wolek stuff, the only One Life I've seen even in clips is that 69 episode online, and the 1976 one--similar to how there are those five episodes from the first year and a bit of AMC, and then the next earliest one, or even clip I've found is the 1978 Tom and Erica wedding.