World Turns for a buck!

[Mitch]

I think Sheffer could be good if he had a strong producer who was really into "traditional," World Turns. I think a producer keeping tabs on the history and feel of the show with a writer who had new creative ideas would be perfect..but I dont think Sheffer is the one, he keeps relying on the same old same old. In that regard I would love to see of course, Curlee come and write it (my fave quote of hers, about killing Mo was "You can scare the hell out of soap audience, they love it, but there has to be a safety net...they have to be able to be alone in the dark scary backyard, but able to run up the steps, across the porch, through the screen door and find that Nancy Hughes is still in the kitchen making a pie." Which sums up what I think ATWT should be, cutting edge with a traditinol base to build on and act as that saftey net.

I would love in Pam Long would do it..though she really, really needs a strong EP, one who again, knows exactley what ATWT is and what is should be.

[Khan]

I'm going with Mitch's choices, Pam Long and Nancy Curlee (or a combination of the two?). Both adore traditional, multi-generational storytelling that touches the audience's deepest emotions. But - again, like Mitch said - they'd need an EP who will stand aside and allow them to tell their stories their way.

[Mitch]

Who did Pam Long write with when she first came to GL..was it Jeff Ryder? That was when she was at her best, multigenerational, ALL the families were equally involved (including the Bauers which she ignored later) the intro of Reva, Alex, Lujack, the friendships we came to know and love: (Four Muskateers..including the first frenemies of Mindy and Beth, and the first bromance with Phillip and Rick) Ed and Ross. Even over Curlee that was my fave time of GL..it was exciting yet very, very, very traditional.

[DRW50]

Pam Long started on GL with Richard Culliton.

[Saving ATWT]

I said this somewhere before bit I think Jack Smith or Kay Adlen would both be good fits. Both have demonstrated that they know how to tell traditional stories and keep a show steady. My only worry is that they would not be hired because they failed the net Y&R kiddie demo gains. One of World Turns biggest problems is that it has never been a good fit with the rest of the CBS daytime lineup and, thus, did not benefit from having B&B as a strong lead in. The fact that ATWT looses .6 in HH is insane: Y&R at #1, B&B at #2 and ATWT at #7 is just wrong. I would never want World Turns to be a B&B clone (I dislike the show) but there were ways to make the show a bit more appealing in order to hold on to viewers. Ratings wise, the show did well under Sheffer and that is the main reason why I thought about him. Also, he knows how to shake a show up. When he came to World Turns he used Babs leaving Hal as a major umbrella to get the show moving again. My main issue with Sheffer's writing was the manner in which he abruptly changed a lot of characters: Craig would be a good example. Block was great and would have been even better if just brought in as a new character in Oakdale. I've always figured Goutman was to blame for stuff like this with all his talk of being commited to the show's history. I know Goutman is all about HIS vision for the show and think Sheffer and even Pissy have probably taken more blame than they deserve. I would like to see Sheffer's work without people like Goutman, MAB and Cordy getting in his way.

I have this feeling that if World Turns were to get picked up elsewhere, they would be working the whole 'anti-soap' theme. I find the term silly and have yet to ever see any showrunner actually pull it off. People decribe Y&R as an anti-soap these days and, even though it is boring, I fail to see it. I just see a network like Lifetime pimping the show as new and improved and an innovative take on the genre. The show will die in a year if they do this.

[DRW50]

Given that Sheffer has recycled the same stories everywhere he goes, I don't know if producers getting in the way is a problem. Women would rape men and this would be treated as amusing, or no big deal. Women would be coerced into having sex with men who hold the life of her boyfriend in their hands, but we would get some hints that she sort of likes it. Pets would be killed to show us how crazy the psycho of the month is. Sociopathic, sneering men would smarm around town boozing it up, as various other men are written as saps to make the smarms look better. Most friendships and family connections would disappear, or become very bitter and ugly. Past characters would return in name only, suddenly turned into thugs or lunatics.

[Saving ATWT]

Sheffer has an edge and will never do romantic, candle lite dinners scenes unless the couple has either been drugged or is under severe duress. I even get a kick out of his phychos of the month: Patty on Y&R was great! I could feel her pain, saw her as totally manipulated, and that peanut kiss for summer was creatively a brilliant touch. On ATWT, Rick Decker was fun to watch. I think soaps can be a lot more than just romance and splenda-sweet moments. Bill Bell knew this: he created Shiela and Cassandra Rollards. Sometimes I think soap fans have weak stomachs and only want pretty, fun and tender story. Also, I do not see Sheffer as anti-woman. On World Turns, he crafted a daring Allison, had Carly at her best, and injected life back into a backburnered Barbara. He also made both Emily and Molly stable for the first time ever on the show. BTW, he was right about the character of Jack having no balls. When Sheffer took over, Jack Snyder was being painfully manipulated by both Carly and Julia. He just bounched back and forth between women like a pathetic pound puppy.

Since when have soaps treated women well? Bell crafted a rather pathetic Nikki who would do anything to hold Victor. Remember when she lied and said she was dying? I still remember the coffin salesman at her house. Jack Abbot used all of his wives as did Brad. B&B has been no better with both Brook and Stephanie so pathetic when it comes to thier men. On GH, Monica let Allen walk all over her like a rug.

[DRW50]

I could never feel Patty's pain because I had no idea why she went from some sort of business mogul to a psycho within a few weeks. She was extremely plot-driven and the story seemed made up as it went along.

Soaps are also more than ugliness, darkness, and gimmicks revolving around rape and murder. Sheffer never knows balance. Even worse is that he has no idea of how to tell the dark stories he so enjoys writing. They just go all over the place and the ending is almost always an afterthought. Key scenes are left behind, because he doesn't bother to tell stories.

I thought Allison was about as tired as you could get, and Sheffer has repeated this same tired character on his other soaps (most recently on Y&R with Abby Carlton). She was the generic brat who was created only because the show needed to shove a deadly dull teen scene on people, chasing each other around campuses to find keys, or whatever. They trashed Susan and rewrote Susan's history to prop her. Then when the nonsense with Lucy and Aaron finally ended, they proceeded to put her in a weird relationship with a Chris Hughes who looked well over twice her age.

Carly at her best -- all I remember is painful "banter" with smarmy Craig, along with a reunion with Jack which Sheffer obviously loathed.

Barbara was a plot device. He made her into a crazy old veiled lady, rejected by everyone around her, just so she could be used to tell his lame attempts at gothic stories. Once he got tired of his own bad camp, he didn't write for her.

Sheffer's idea of a man with balls is a rapist or a murderer. Jack was neither of those, so instead he had Jack raped by Julia, and he invited us to laugh at the whole thing.

I never saw the Monica/Alan relationship that way. Monica always had a strong point of view and always gave as good as she got.

On a Sheffer show, she would have been dead, or the psycho of the month.

[DRW50]

By the way, sorry if my tone is too unpleasant. It's not directed towards you. I just hated that era of the show.

[Saving ATWT]

Carl, your tone is fine; debate is a good thing and we all see things a bit differently. My main reason for sticking up for Sheffer during his time at World Turns relates to the fact that he had to stabilize a show stuck in a messy transition. I'm 33, remember the Marland years, and know that during the mid-1980's, the main players on the show were around 50 years of age: a similiar place to where Y&R is today. By the late 90's, around the time of Kim's heart attack, the core of the show was aging and, for as much as I love Bob, Lisa, Kim, Susan, no network wanted a show composed of 60somethings. This was also about the time EP Behr was trying to couple up Lucinda and James which caused Liz Hubbard to quit. ATWT 1998-2000 is basically a blur for me mainly because it was so bad! I remember Alac Wallace (sp?), little Eddie and Lucinda's niece Georgia, and the into of Katie--watching the show was painful.

I was so sure ATWT was going to get axed during that entire period. Transitioning a show's focus is an almost impossible task and, at the least, Sheffer managed to get things steady. I agree Hunt Block should have been cast as a new character; however, Block did a fine job and in some ways reminded me of an early Lucinda: remember when she was the Dobson's anti-hero and owned the slum apt. buildings. The main problem with Block is not that he was sleezy but that the character never developed. I also like that Sheffer tried to rebuild the Walsh family by bringing back Sierra, Lucy and Bryant. Behr and Brodrick wanted to toss out the past and create or push characters who had no ties to core families: Julia, Carly, Molly, Eddie, Alec, ect.) Clearly, the Walsh family fell apart but, at the least, Sheffer tried to focus on history. Also, I am pretty sure that they were trying to model Allison on Sammy Brady on Days. The actress was a cute kid, not a hair model, who seemed very real to me.

I will agree that Sheffer has trouble finding balance. As you said, soaps are also more than ugliness, darkness, and gimmicks revolving murder. With that said, he is a dark, sardonic writer. I think he did a fair amount of romance and fun tossed in. An example was Molly's wedding party: those women were actually friends! Rose and Emily were partners in crime. I felt like Oakdale was a family again. Many things could have been done better: Bryant's death is a good example. All I know is that Sheffer got people excited about ATWT. It won awards, got soap mag covers, had good ratings. Things were a lot better then than they are today.

[DRW50]

I see what you're saying, but I thought a lot of the hype over ATWT then was about Sheffer, not about the show itself. Endless fawning press coverage over him and how witty and clever and brave he was and how he was not a soap writer yet he deigned to do ATWT. I think it just enabled the arrogance of Goutman's ATWT run, which is that Goutman does not care about the show's history, he just believes he himself is the great visionary. That era of ATWT ran roughshod over history and yet anything they did to try to branch out usually seemed very derivative and ultimately went nowhere, like Allison as the Sami wannabe. I can't even remember one good new character actually created during the Sheffer years.

I think Bryant came back before Sheffer's arrival. It was Sheffer and Passanante who killed him off. Sierra never had any storyline, and Lucy, she was a horrible actress for most of her run. I felt like they never made any actual effort to build up the Walsh family, which is why Lucinda remained a back number for all those years.

I do agree with you about Behr and Broderick and their run. I still don't know what was worse. New characters who were poorly developed, or gutted, in-name-only characters who showed up with huge rewrites and seemed to flounder soon after arrival, and only survived through endless propping.

[Saving ATWT]

I agree that all the Sheffer press made Goutman unstoppable. The 2005 Daytime Emmy made both Goutman and Pissy almost impossible to fire. Goutman is a dictator: no care for what fans want; driving out Martha Byrne (I think he planned it well in advance); Clashing with Hogan Sheffer over writing to the point where Sheffer only wanted to do breakdowns; ignoring vets like Eileen Fulton because they didn't get kiss his ass.

I had the impression that both Sierra and Roseanna were underused due to financial issues but I could be wrong. As for Allison as Sami clone: imitation is the best form of flattery. She worked as a new Stewart and worked really well during the period when she fought Lucy for Aaron. It was that classic underdog gets the boy tale. As for Lucy, Peyton List was great. No one can blame Sheffer for casting--during his time or after. I do agree that there was little character development but, again, some of this should have been happening after 2005.

I still feel that Behr and Brodrick were the worst. All I can say for Brodrick is that she used Liz Hubbard--even though it was in a silly way with James. It was Goutman who killed ATWT. He was unable to transition ATWT properly and the show has mainly stayed on the air for the last few years due to it having a powerful lead in. B&B has lost a lot of viewers over the last two years and that is what really killed ATWT. Right now, tell me who is the 'new' Kim and Bob? Who is the 'new' Lisa? Right now someone like Emily should be a diva! Goutman, along with his writers, failed at grounding the show and it has almost no foundation. The show is hollow and, some days, almost as dead as GL. The sad thing is that there is still so much potential.

Also, Goutman never pimped the show by even getting it Soap Mag covers. Does TeleNext even do PR?

[Mitch]

I think that even more then B & B's lead in (which to be honest, I never watched that piece of crap, though I did love the psycho pouring honey over the girl to attract the bear they played on the Soup...I have to wonder why that show hasnt picked up Zimmer as an overweight, frouzy, messy, foul mouthed psycho by now??) I think ATWT is a "brand name," even more so then GL. Someone in another thread (had to be AMC) was going on about how AMC through the 70s and 80s was more successful with ratings and critics...but until 78 ATWT was number one and hit that number several times during Marland..(AMC hasnt hit that since,what early 80s) Anyway, ATWT based on the ratings has been probably one of the most successful soap ever (21 years at number 1) and even now isnt doing that much worse then OLTL or AMC, which gets more press. I can't imagine that if any soap was going to be picked up they dont pick up ATWT, everyone knows that means "soap."

Oh, I digress dont I. Anyway, ATWT and GL both had the same problem over the last few years, alternately embarrased by their history and not brave enough to cut it. Because of that we have not seen a natural progression as we should have seen, i.e. Grandpa Hughes and Judge Lowell handing the torch over to Nancy and Chris who handed the torch to Bob and Kim, Papa Bauer handing it off to Bert, who handed off to Maureen, etc. GL was stuck in a time warp, Alan hadnt "aged," in years, and he was stuck repeating the same tired schemes over and over again, with no consquences or character development (well actually his character did develope from a strong sophisticated aristocrat business mogul with shades of grey, to a ridiculous snidely whiplash who went around with EVIL on his forehead and was trumped by the likes of Gush and the Cooper family.) There was no Bauer patriach as the didnt want Ed and wouldnt allow Rick to grow into that role, they kept him as a pathetic lovelorn goof. Same as Frank, who had more moral authortiy to run the Coopers then did the troll known as Buzz. was kept as a middle aged man living at home and not having a life. The show needed to kill Alan off before the last week of the show and transition Rick, Beth, Phillip, Mindy, Frank and Harley into "adults." AND they would need a 20 something pack of characters to take their place, but they didnt, they just kept trotting young characters not attached to the core at all but taking up screen time (Grady, Cyrus, Christina, etc. ) ATWT has the exact same problem in that there has been no organic metamorphis. Lisa should be mentoring Carly and we can see she is younger Lisa, causing havoc for a core family but still loved by them, Kim should be mentoring Frannie, Sabrina could be the new Barbara, a morally ambivalant woman who wants the love of her family but at the same time does her best to ruin it. Dusty, could be the new John Dixon...not a part of any core family but constantly at odds with them. Instead of doing this, they backburner the vets into oblivion and then bring in totally unattached boring "young," characters who dont interact with any family.

[Khan]

I'll reiterate what I said about JFP and Megan McTavish's OLTL a long time ago: I don't mind my soap opera being "dark," but it still has to be entertaining. Sheffer's ATWT (and his DAYS and Y&R) was never entertaining. It was just sad.

[Saving ATWT]

This could not be better said. I am in a rush today so will need to be brief. Firstly, if ATWT can not get picked up SOMEWHERE then the genre is really dead. There was talk about turning GL into a once a week (13 eppys a year) but, clearly, that never happened. I kind of thought this would be the plan for World Turns--that someone would want this iconic brand in some form. I think the failure of getting a pick up may be found in the demos. Granted, no soap is doing well in this regard.

You are on the mark regarding how ATWT ran from history. I see Y&R passing the torch: Jack to Billy/Jill to Cloe. You hit it on the nail when you spoke about Dusty as John Dixon. Goutman dropped the ball back in 1999 and it has been down hill ever since. I'm watching today's show and it is rather good. If they could keep steady like this till September, the show could have a promising future. I still think the best maintained element of this show RIGHT now is the Stewart and Ryan families. So much else in the show feels forced. As an aside, I loved seeing Susan today ;-)