17 hours ago, P.J. said:

So, sort of like Roger also raping Rita...it got lost in the dustbin.

Oh, they lost a lot of his backstory in the dustbin. Some of it was probably forgotten, other things deliberately obscured because they wanted to have the Roger/Holly thing. When he comes back they make it seem like the rape was a blip in his history. The truth is, he was abusive almost from the beginning. He attempted to rape Holly's sister-in-law, he didn't rape Hillary but he was physicially abusive while they were in a relationship. He did many other terrible things: blackmailed Alan into faking his death so Holly would go to prison for many years, tried to kidnap Christina, kidnapped a pregnant Rita instead and left her in a burning building so that she lost her baby, indirectly caused the death of his French girlfriend Renee, kindapped Holly and tried to kill Ed and Mike. Peggy was supposed to be his redemption and when she left him that's when he really lost it.

The other thing they changed (or possibly forgot) was that it was NOT Roger who was in love with Holly. It was always the other way around. She was obsessed with him for years, since she was a teenager. Only after her marriage with Ed ended did that kind of kill her feelings for Roger. She deeply regretted letting that marriage end. (Interesting that they didn't forget this yet they never gave Ed and Holly a real romantic story again). She married Roger only for Christina's sake. 

Sure, they had to find a way to work around this stuff to make him a viable character on the show after he returned. They probably assumed a lot of people wouldn't remember it or many of those fans who did had long abandoned the show by then.

1 hour ago, P.J. said:

Charita Bauer passed away in '85 (I believe) after developing cancer.

Although I think you are correct that she at one point had cancer, I believe her actual cause of death was complications from diabetes. That's why she lost her leg. She was open about it and spoke about it in interviews. Amazing lady, very brave. Those scenes between her and Josh during rehabilitation are classics. Watching them still make me emotional.

Edited April 30Apr 30 by DeeVee

1 hour ago, P.J. said:

Hope divorced Alan in '83, and never came back to town.

Never understood this. She was a core family member, had all that backstory with Alan, was AM's mother. It's ridiculous they never brought her back. And yet for some wild reason they had Michelle name her kid after her, so it's not like they didn't know she existed.

17 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

Never understood this. She was a core family member, had all that backstory with Alan, was AM's mother. It's ridiculous they never brought her back. And yet for some wild reason they had Michelle name her kid after her, so it's not like they didn't know she existed.

Actually, Dinah was carrying Cassie and Edmund's baby and only Edmund knew she had a miscarriage. He was with Michelle when she gave birth, stole the baby and presented her as his and Cassie's. Cassie named her Hope. When she told Michelle, she told her that she has a cousin named Hope

34 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

 He attempted to rape Holly's sister-in-law, he didn't rape Hillary 

The other thing they changed (or possibly forgot) was that it was NOT Roger who was in love with Holly. It was always the other way around. She was obsessed with him for years, since she was a teenager. Only after her marriage with Ed ended did that kind of kill her feelings for Roger. She deeply regretted letting that marriage end. (Interesting that they didn't forget this yet they never gave Ed and Holly a real romantic story again). She married Roger only for Christina's sake. 

Sure, they had to find a way to work around this stuff to make him a viable character on the show after he returned. They probably assumed a lot of people wouldn't remember it or many of those fans who did had long abandoned the show by then.

Although I think you are correct that she at one point had cancer, I believe her actual cause of death was complications from diabetes. That's why she lost her leg. She was open about it and spoke about it in interviews. Amazing lady, very brave. Those scenes between her and Josh during rehabilitation are classics. Watching them still make me emotional.

Are you talking about maybe Ken's wife? The one he'd shot Ed over? I didn't realize he'd attempted another rape.

I have caught some of the '79 episodes, and it blew my mind that Roger had slept with Hillary. And while married to Holly. What I got was that his obsession was really about Ed, and feeling inferior to him. So much like he ended up sleeping with the daughters of his enemies in the '90s', he's out to hurt Ed via the women in his life. 

I guess I had assumed Charita's leg amputation was due to cancer, the same as Bert. But yes--she's so good in those scenes with Josh. 

1 hour ago, P.J. said:

I don't think the comparison is a disservice to Jordan. Yes, Beverlee is mesmerizing as the antagonist, taunting Billy and reveling in the thought of destroying the image of Mindy that Billy had. It's a self-destructive masterpiece. 

But I think we can all think of times when one actor manages to suck all the air out of the room during confrontations. It's a credit to Jordan that he doesn't let that happen in this instance, and is so effective in the less flashy role. If you don't believe this is ripping Billy right down to his foundation, then the scene isn't as effective.

The actor who replaced him was Geoffrey Scott, who had most notably been on Dynasty. Jordan was fired after being arrested on drug charges.

In 93, the show announced Jordan was suspended for bad behavior on the set, but that's all I remember them saying. I assumed he would be back until they sent Billy to prison. When Clarke returned, he told SOD that he told JFP that he and a drug problem, and needed to leave to get help. He said she told him that it was not a good time to leave the show. I assumed that his reaction was the bad behavior on the set. I believe he and his wife were arrested on charges sometime before the clone story. I remember Rauch saying that he planned to heavily use him in the story. I'm not sure, but I think something also happened during the Billy/Holly/Buzz story, because he was gone from the show and someone in the press said that with the Holly/Buzz pairing that the writers seem to erase Billy's name and replace him with Buzz. I'm trying hard to remember, but I'm pretty sure something happened around that time too

Bert Bauer had cancer but Charita Bauer never did. She died from complications from diabetes. She lost her leg due to a blood clot. 

27 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

Never understood this. She was a core family member, had all that backstory with Alan, was AM's mother. It's ridiculous they never brought her back. And yet for some wild reason they had Michelle name her kid after her, so it's not like they didn't know she existed.

I think in part they feared a backlash over a recast. And the fact they wanted to emphasize A-M's Spaulding-ness, if you will. 

Did Michelle actually mention naming her daughter after Hope, or did that current regime simply stumble on the name and forget there was already a Hope in the Bauer family? 'Cause I know which theory I'd be first to believe. As I wasn't a Nancy St Alban or Manny fan, I'd forgotten she had a daughter, and when I rewatched the last episodes, it too me more than a little while to connect Hope Santos with Hope Bauer.

3 minutes ago, bboy875 said:

In 93, the show announced Jordan was suspended for bad behavior on the set, but that's all I remember them saying. I assumed he would be back until they sent Billy to prison. When Clarke returned, he told SOD that he told JFP that he and a drug problem, and needed to leave to get help. He said she told him that it was not a good time to leave the show. I assumed that his reaction was the bad behavior on the set. I believe he and his wife were arrested on charges sometime before the clone story. I remember Rauch saying that he planned to heavily use him in the story. I'm not sure, but I think something also happened during the Billy/Holly/Buzz story, because he was gone from the show and someone in the press said that with the Holly/Buzz pairing that the writers seem to erase Billy's name and replace him with Buzz. I'm trying hard to remember, but I'm pretty sure something happened around that time too

I could be wrong about when he was arrested. I know in '93, physically, he looks bad. I'm glad in the end he prioritized his health, but I'll always wonder how everything would've played out with Peter's custody had Jordan been in the role.

I do know he's not in the clone story much after the beginning, but I'd always assumed that was because of Jordan's recurring status and the difficulty of trying to explain how Billy could've been fooled by a teen clone when he'd known Reva all her life. 

18 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I do think that by the '90s, this type of freedom was much tougher to find. McTavish mentioned in her book about Agnes having to adapt as her power diminished, and how McTavish had to do the same by the time she went to OLTL. 

There are some writers who seemed to be able to get a lot of their voice on, like Sheffer or maybe David Kriezman, but I can have some sympathy for Jill Lorie Hurst as by that time I'm not sure if Wheeler was letting go. 

Of course then it gets to a point where I say oh all the bad stuff wasn't hers, which is not a great idea - I am sure she did get some material on, like Otalia, which I was OK with, so that means some of the stuff in the last year or two I would say wasn't good would have ties to her as well.

That's a good question. My guess is they didn't mention it as so much time had passed. I don't remember if Peggy was ever mentioned in these years.

I keep trying to remember if Fletcher possibly being Michelle's father was ever mentioned on the show or if that was just in the Follyworld fic that was being written online around the same time.

Jean Carol mentioned in her ill-fated attempt to stay that she had worked with so many characters and no longer did. Another gift from JFP (I would blame Buzz, but Buzz was a fictional character...but I'll give him some blame anyway...).

Bill was called Little Billy until 1993 or 1994, when he wanted to be called Bill.

There was some storyline, I don't really remember it aside from reading about it in books, where Dylan as well as Nadine's boyfriend Carroll were working for some trucking gang. I think they may have been responsible for his blindness, although Ed, who had relapsed around that time, was suspected.

A number of Leonard's friends and co-stars are still close with him - Jocelyn Seagrave (who played Julie) is still close with him and has done interviews with Locher Room and elsewhere about him.

Fletcher possibly being Michelle's father is because he was with Claire when she and Ed did the deed, and he said he couldn't be the father because of the vasectomy, so from the beginning of the pregnancy we all saw Ed as the father. When he got Holly pregnant, I thought as those in the soap press, and fans writing to soap mags that because he did get Holly pregnant, he could've gotten Claire pregnant too. However, I'm sure none of us wanted him to be the father, but it should've been addressed, but I don't think ever was. And because Michelle was a baby/toddler when Claire took off, I don't know if they ever did the story where Michelle finds out Maureen adopted her but Claire was her biological mother. It's downright stupid if they didn't. Imagine in press reports of Maureen's death, this scandal was brought up and that's how she found out. Or was it addressed when Claire came back? Anyone know?

7 minutes ago, bboy875 said:

, I don't know if they ever did the story where Michelle finds out Maureen adopted her but Claire was her biological mother. It's downright stupid if they didn't. Imagine in press reports of Maureen's death, this scandal was brought up and that's how she found out. Or wsit addressed when Claire came back? Anyone know?

I'm pretty sure they didn't. I think one of the Michelles explains that she'd always known Maureen wasn't her biological mother, and that it was never really a secret. And that to me seems consistent with Maureen's personality and philosophy. 

5 minutes ago, P.J. said:

I'm pretty sure they didn't. I think one of the Michelles explains that she'd always known Maureen wasn't her biological mother, and that it was never really a secret. And that to me seems consistent with Maureen's personality and philosophy. 

Thanks! It would seem consistent with Maureen, but confusing for those of us who were there when she was conceived but missed this pivotal scene lol

2 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

BTW, i'm not sure if you got an answer but Charita Bauer who played Bert did die. IRL I mean. Before that her health was in decline & her age was advanced. So her death was not a surprise. It was just a good thing that she got to work as long as she did. 

Actaully...Charita's death came as a BIG suprise...she was only 62 (she was one of those people who looked a certain age when she was young and never got older) and THAT is not old...(at least, not to me now.) Everyone thought she was okay (she died from complications from diabetes) and Charita, like Bert, was counted on to always be the "up person" who everyone counted on so she didn't let on to anyone about how ill she was post surgery. As a matter of face Gail Kobe killed Hillary, wrote off Mike and recast (disasterously) Ed as she thought people would tune in to her new GL as long as Charita/Bert was there (which is why it took them so long to do let Bert die offscreen...they didn't know what the hell to do.)

48 minutes ago, P.J. said:

Are you talking about maybe Ken's wife? The one he'd shot Ed over? I didn't realize he'd attempted another rape.

Yes, I think her name was Janet or Janice? (We're talking over 50 year ago here.)

48 minutes ago, P.J. said:

What I got was that his obsession was really about Ed, and feeling inferior to him. So much like he ended up sleeping with the daughters of his enemies in the '90s', he's out to hurt Ed via the women in his life. 

Yes, I agree, it had a lot to do with resentment of Ed. Ed and the rest of the Bauers were very close to Peggy. They were almost like siblings. I think Roger felt that Peggy left him in part because of Ed being hurt by Christina's real paternity. Also, he chose the night of Rita and Ed's engagement party to rape her. He was once involved with Rita and even saved her from a murder charge by giving her an alibi. He may have felt her getting with Ed was a betrayal.

59 minutes ago, bboy875 said:

Actually, Dinah was carrying Cassie and Edmund's baby and only Edmund knew she had a miscarriage. He was with Michelle when she gave birth, stole the baby and presented her as his and Cassie's. Cassie named her Hope. When she told Michelle, she told her that she has a cousin named Hope

I missed this entire storyline. Thanks for filling that in! That makes a little more sense. Kind of, LOL.

46 minutes ago, P.J. said:

I think in part they feared a backlash over a recast. And the fact they wanted to emphasize A-M's Spaulding-ness, if you will.

I wonder if Elvera would have come back. At any rate, they didn't seem to care as far as recasting Alan and Amanda. But you could be right about AM--once Maureen dies (I remember he was there in the hospital and very distraught when she was brought in), they don't talk much about him being a Bauer, do they?

I'm playing catchup after not being on site for a few days, so I'll say this instead of more quote replies. First, I never knew Roger had a vasectomy, so this was missed with Hart, and the baby Mindy miscarried (for me a fail with Calhoun/Curlee/Demorest/Reilly. Mindy giving birth to Roger's son would of had major consequences for them, and everyone connected to them, more far reaching than Nick). Also, I always thought it was a mistake to downplay a lot of Roger's past. Dealing with them the right way would have gone to show how much he changed after falling off the cliff, and realistically, those who knew him wouldn't have believed him. It's kind of if he had to earn it. But I think they chose to sweep it under the rug to justify Alex marrying him. Though it made for great story, I don't see why she would marry him knowing/learning about his history. And ignoring Rita was unforgivable 

9 minutes ago, Mitch64 said:

As a matter of face Gail Kobe killed Hillary, wrote off Mike and recast (disasterously) Ed as she thought people would tune in to her new GL as long as Charita/Bert was there (which is why it took them so long to do let Bert die offscreen...they didn't know what the hell to do.)

While I don't dislike Peter Simon as much as some people, I think if Mart Hulswit has been retained as Ed, the show would have weathered Charita's death a bit better (Richard Van Vleet was Ed at the point she passed away no? Even moreso). There was something about Mart that was so relatable. Peter was kind of dour, and RVV was...well, he just wasn't Ed. It was like Chuck Tyler was visiting Cedars.

7 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

Yes, I think her name was Janet or Janice? (We're talking over 50 year ago here.)

Yes, I agree, it had a lot to do with resentment of Ed. Ed and the rest of the Bauers were very close to Peggy. They were almost like siblings. I think Roger felt that Peggy left him in part because of Ed being hurt by Christina's real paternity. Also, he chose the night of Rita and Ed's engagement party to rape her. He was once involved with Rita and even saved her from a murder charge by giving her an alibi. He may have felt her getting with Ed was a betrayal.

I missed this entire storyline. Thanks for filling that in! That makes a little more sense. Kind of, LOL.

I wonder if Elvera would have come back. At any rate, they didn't seem to care as far as recasting Alan and Amanda. But you could be right about AM--once Maureen dies (I remember he was there in the hospital and very distraught when she was brought in), they don't talk much about him being a Bauer, do they?

I haven't seen it since it aired but I believe AM had a scene with Michelle at Maureen's repose, and I had to remember they were cousins. Weird because Carl Evans' AM was a fixture at the Bauer House, but they seem to move him futher away from them when Rick Hearst took over, and this was even when Blake faked a pregnancy to marry him, and then a miscarriage after they married