Absolutely. @alwaysAMC the worst example was on another world and Jensen Buchanan didn't want to play Vicki and het twin Marley so they had Marley burn up in a fire so Ellen Wheeler (who played both twins in the 80s) could reprised Marley. So suddenly, the one twin is like 10 inches taller than the other one. 😆

The DeMarco plot was just poorly written. If ppl were honest, Annie was probably more popular than Reva despite being the "villain. They really needed to be done with Annie-- rest the character at the very least.

My folks never liked Mallet, or "Adrian" as they'd call him. 😆 Adrian was a Y&R villain who was in with Cassandra Rawlings and the bunch.

I wonder how many CBS old timers realized that Meta Bauer wasn't Jo (SFT).

Edited 6 hours ago6 hr by Spoon

6 hours ago, P.J. said:

You do (or at least I do) what Marland thought about Josh's turnaround/Robert Newman after Josh and Reva got huge. I don't think DM was very inspired by him either.

I don't remember him ever talking about Josh/RN in interviews. I only recall he was miffed that they changed Kelly Louise's name to Stacy. I believe he said that was something that always connected him to Nola and was an issue for Morgan, again implying he wasn't done with Kelly/Nola.

The post-wedding storyline for Kelly and Morgan was so flaccid, it was obvious to me he wasn't really invested in them. That may have had something to do with Jennifer Cook replacing Vigard. Tired old "marriage vs. career" story. Then Kelly wanting to have a baby when he was constantly haraunging Morgan about money because they didn't have any.

Gag, I couldn't stand Kelly. He was such a jerk. Nola was too good for him.

I have to say it's pretty impressive that Long came in and saw RN's potential to become a leading man, and then she made it happen. Of course, that had a lot to do with the chemistry between him and KZ. But also the family dynamic with Billy and HB, and you started to understand why he would be different around them.

45 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

I don't remember him ever talking about Josh/RN in interviews. I only recall he was miffed that they changed Kelly Louise's name to Stacy. I believe he said that was something that always connected him to Nola and was an issue for Morgan, again implying he wasn't done with Kelly/Nola.

The post-wedding storyline for Kelly and Morgan was so flaccid, it was obvious to me he wasn't really invested in them. That may have had something to do with Jennifer Cook replacing Vigard. Tired old "marriage vs. career" story. Then Kelly wanting to have a baby when he was constantly haraunging Morgan about money because they didn't have any.

Gag, I couldn't stand Kelly. He was such a jerk. Nola was too good for him.

I have to say it's pretty impressive that Long came in and saw RN's potential to become a leading man, and then she made it happen. Of course, that had a lot to do with the chemistry between him and KZ. But also the family dynamic with Billy and HB, and you started to understand why he would be different around them.

How odd that seems to me....I never once considered Robert Newman/Josh as a leading man. He was always Reva's b*tch.

Did Josh ever have a full-blown story that centered squarely on him? I can't think of a single one. Even where he figured prominently, the story was ultimately about Reva and Reva's reaction.

The closest he ever came when the Josh/Harley story after Reva drove off the bridge.

Then again, I stopped watching in roughly 1998, so maybe something was actually about Josh and his character development,

1 hour ago, Speed Racer said:

How odd that seems to me....I never once considered Robert Newman/Josh as a leading man. He was always Reva's b*tch.

Did Josh ever have a full-blown story that centered squarely on him? I can't think of a single one. Even where he figured prominently, the story was ultimately about Reva and Reva's reaction.

The closest he ever came when the Josh/Harley story after Reva drove off the bridge.

Then again, I stopped watching in roughly 1998, so maybe something was actually about Josh and his character development,

When I first started watching in Feb 1995, I thought Josh felt like leading man material. He started courting Annie and I just felt like he was a strong, handsome male presence at the time. That continued into the Ghost Reva story, but then it turned into Amish Reva and then once Annie's backstory was introduced and she became an alcoholic, the story was more about Annie and Reva. From there, you're right (at least over the 1996-1999 period, save for maybe a month in the early clone storyline when I do think it let RN shine with his acting abilities, as well as some character development with Josh's feelings/emotions during the time).

1 hour ago, Speed Racer said:

How odd that seems to me....I never once considered Robert Newman/Josh as a leading man. He was always Reva's b*tch.

Maybe a better way of putting it is romantic lead? As opposed to resident creep.

Let's face it, pretty much EVERY guy who got involved with Reva was Reva's ***tch. Billy, HB, Alan, Kyle, Buzz, Richard, Jeffrey (did I miss any?) - when they were involved with her, that was their status.

I wonder if any of the actors resented being paired with her for this reason.

I guess what I was trying to say was that Robert Newman (while not Chris Bernau, Michael Zaslow, and IMO Jordan Clarke) was better than Marland gave him credit for. Marland treated him like Peter Boynton, ATWT's Tonio Reyes, a cardboard villain, shallow and smarmy.

45 minutes ago, P.J. said:

I guess what I was trying to say was that Robert Newman (while not Chris Bernau, Michael Zaslow, and IMO Jordan Clarke) was better than Marland gave him credit for. Marland treated him like Peter Boynton, ATWT's Tonio Reyes, a cardboard villain, shallow and smarmy.

I can see why Marland felt that way as there was always a coldness in Josh, but I agree Newman could do more. Even before Long arrived, the show seemed to take him out of boo hiss mode - he's not written that way in the available early 1983 episodes.

I know Newman also played a psycho on Santa Barbara - no idea how he was on that show - but similar to Andy Norris, there wasn't anything engrossing about this nastiness. This wasn't a Roger Thorpe situation. It didn't help that Morgan and Lesley Ann were so dreary, and Floyd and Kelly weren't that thrilling either. The stakes felt low and gross at the same time.

I'm not sure how many times Marland managed to write scheming or slimy male characters who were compelling.

2 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

How odd that seems to me....I never once considered Robert Newman/Josh as a leading man. He was always Reva's b*tch.

Did Josh ever have a full-blown story that centered squarely on him? I can't think of a single one. Even where he figured prominently, the story was ultimately about Reva and Reva's reaction.

The closest he ever came when the Josh/Harley story after Reva drove off the bridge.

Then again, I stopped watching in roughly 1998, so maybe something was actually about Josh and his character development,

I think the crux of the character revolved around Reva, but he had some other moments - his pairing with Olivia, which was surprisingly nuanced at times. And later on when he became a minister.

18 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

and I can see why Marland felt that way as there was always a coldness in Josh, but I agree Newman could do more. Even before Long arrived, the show seemed to take him out of boo hiss mode - he's not written that way in the available early 1983 episodes.

I know Newman also played a psycho on Santa Barbara - no idea how he was on that show - but similar to Andy Norris, there wasn't anything engrossing about this nastiness. This wasn't a Roger Thorpe situation. It didn't help that Morgan and Lesley Ann were so dreary, and Floyd and Kelly weren't that thrilling either. The stakes felt low and gross at the same time.

I'm not sure how many times Marland managed to write scheming or slimy male characters who were compelling.

I think the crux of the character revolved around Reva, but he had some other moments - his pairing with Olivia, which was surprisingly nuanced at times. And later on when he became a minister.

Was Long writing SB at some point? Wasn't Krista T also some kind of loon on that show? RN was a psycho? Lord--save me. It must've been like Frankie D kicking a puppy---Earth666 stuff.

Sigh--Carolyn Ann Clark--about the most reluctant 'ho I've seen on a soap.

There should be honorary emmys for those actors who have withstood the scenery chewing of La Zimmer and lived to tell the tale.

Honestly, I don't think Marland created a great, sustainable villain. There are short term ones like Doug Cummings and Henry Lange.

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by P.J.

3 minutes ago, P.J. said:

Was Long writing SB at some point? Wasn't Krista T also some kind of loon on that show? RN was a psycho? Lord--save me. It must've been like Frankie D kicking a puppy---Earth666 stuff.

Long was the one who had Krista as a psycho. I'm not sure who was writing when Robert was there (he was taking over for Joseph Bottoms). Maybe the Dobsons. He returned to GL not long after.

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by DRW50

1 hour ago, P.J. said:

I guess what I was trying to say was that Robert Newman (while not Chris Bernau, Michael Zaslow, and IMO Jordan Clarke) was better than Marland gave him credit for. Marland treated him like Peter Boynton, ATWT's Tonio Reyes, a cardboard villain, shallow and smarmy.

All his villains were like that. Andy, Mark Evans, Silas, gosh, even Diane. Diane was VERY different when the Dobsons wrote her. She wasn't a schemer, exactly, more a woman in love with a man she's never going to have but still trying to protect him.

It's not hard to believe that that would eventually make her bitter and turn her against him, but she just became a pretty rote villain in the end. I didn't even understand half the vindictive things she was doing. (If anyone can explain how she benefited from having Alan take Phillip out of his will, PLEASE do).

In Diane's case it was not being great at writing a nuanced villain and also that she was a woman, because unless the actress was especially esteemed by him, like Lisa or Jane, he didn't write them very well.

And I just realized--all the nuanced villains he inherited: Ross, Alan, Roger, Lucille, Diane--were either put on the road to redemption or killed off. (I know MZ, Sofia, and Rita Lloyd were on the way out anyway, but I wonder what would have happened to their characters if they had wanted to stay).

Even one he created--Nola--was eventually redeemed.

Anyway, we were talking about RN. I always say that actors can surprise you when they get the right material. That definitely happened with him. It's true that this started happening before Long came on. They made Josh less sleazy--he was a good friend to Amanda, he had a complicated relationship with Morgan, he was trying to succeed in business in an honest way. His character was already evolving.

I don't think they did a "redemption" thing for Josh--it was more memory holed and since few cared about sleazy Josh, they got away with it. It would have been a little difficult for him to be holier-than-thou with Reva if people were bringing up his past with Leslie Ann, etc.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by DeeVee

Ugh - that newer BauerBBQ account I mentioned a few weeks back just got removed from YouTube, so all those episodes are gone once again .

1 hour ago, DeeVee said:

Anyway, we were talking about RN. I always say that actors can surprise you when they get the right material. That definitely happened with him. It's true that this started happening before Long came on. They made Josh less sleazy--he was a good friend to Amanda, he had a complicated relationship with Morgan, he was trying to succeed in business in an honest way. His character was already evolving.

I don't think they did a "redemption" thing for Josh--it was more memory holed and since few cared about sleazy Josh, they got away with it. It would have been a little difficult for him to be holier-than-thou with Reva if people were bringing up his past with Leslie Ann, etc.

"Memory holed" is pretty accurate. I think the Oil Rig disaster is his turning point, but it's not like he did this great redemptive thing--he just kind of decides he doesn't have to be an ass. I'm not even sure writers after Curlee really realized Josh had been a sleaze. Ross and Vanessa would occasionally reference their earlier selves---from what I recall, Josh didn't. Then again, he was too busy putting up with (or reminding her of) Reva's BS.