ALL Emotional reactions to the death of the genre

[Ryan]

Brian

[Darn]

Not if she's been a contemptible b*tch the past 15 years.

[EricMontreal22]

Hey Brian Man I miss Wost but gotta thank you and the site for exposing me at a yougn age to great soap moments I never dreamed I'd have a chance to see again.

ANYWAY--I actually agree with a lot of what yous ay. I guess my point was I don't see it as dire or drastic--if you read the soap press ever since the *80s* even, people, often the newer viewers have been told by older viewers that soaps are at death's door. My point was I've been hearing this so long it stops really having much meaning for me

[dragonflies]

Personally acting like the final nail is being drilled into the coffin of the genre isn't helping matters either. Spreading doom and gloom certainly isn't going to get people to watch, it will have the opposite effect IMO.

You want soaps to stay around? FIGHT FOR THEM.

My 2 cents

[JackPeyton]

I couldnt agree more.

[SteveFrame]

WEll not since the 80's. The 80's was the pinnacle of daytime - even more than the 70's. Ratings were still very high in the 80's and they were still a cultural phenomonom at the time.

The stars and the powers that be behind the soaps and the fans sadly all will play a part in what kills the soaps and are the clear reason soaps got into the shape they are today.

First off fans quit watching soaps for what they are about. No longer are fans devoted to the show but they are devoted for the most part to parts or elements of the show. Soaps are no longer about the characters - and fans have made the stars of the soaps the center and not the character. For years when soaps were striving many people didn't even know the stars name. It was very rare for a soap star to become a star - people knew the character and that was it. Soaps are a genre where it has to be about tthe characters.

There was no such thing as the "real" Greenlee that ABC bought into. Greenlee was a character - it had nothing to do with the actor that played them. But fans have created that. You would never in the glory days of soaps hear about the faux-Greenlee or the fake-Greenlee etc. Fans were first and foremost fans of the shows and the whole show and wanted what was best for it. And they were loyal to the show.

Don't even get me started on the powers that be - all the mistakes they have made. So many have made mistakes including Gloria Monty who was revolutionizing the genre but in the end created a youth phenomonom in daytime that changed daytime to the point that it ended up hurting daytime instead of helping. The thing that made it worse is every other soap producer and writer felt they had to copy GH and thus most shows became clones of GH and lost their identity. The only show that held on to it's original identity in all of this was Y&R because Bell didn't choose to follow the others - he remained the lone wolf. All the rest totally changed in the 80's and almost became different shows than what they were in the 70's - Days being the biggest culprit.

And the biggest thing that has killed daytime is stars and backstage personnel demanding bigger and bigger salaries. The stars have become stars and thus they can demand bigger salaries.

In the 70's, production costs were so low that the networks made enough in ad dollars from one day to pay for the show a whole week. The other 4 days were extra money they could pump back into the show and into primetime. Daytime TV magazine reported in 1975 that Days for instance cost $150,000 a week to produce. They made $100,000 plus each eppy in Advertising Dollars.

So the show cost $150,000 a week, but they made $500,000 plus in ad dollars for Days of Our Lives alone.

Stars and the producers and writers all wanted more of this money for themselves. And yes you can not blame them, but at the same time they have helped to create the big budget downfalls the shows are having today. Not only did we get bigger pay for actors, but the writing staffs got larger. Today the same hour long show that was produced in the 70's and the 80's with as few as 4 writers will not have up to 15 or 20 writers on staff. The shows are not better today and they are not longer. They don't even have as many characters to keep up with. Why does it take more writers? At the height of Days popularity in the mid to late 70's, William J. Bell wrote Days with a staff of about 6 as well as writing Y&R at the same time - again with a staff of about 6. He served as head writer for both shows. Most times the shows didn't even have 6 - 4 to 5 at the most I think. For instance the 1976 team only had Bell, Pat Falken Smith, and Margaret DePriest on staff. Bell served as HW of both shows. The show was an hour long at the time. And at the same time he along with Kay Alden wrote Y&R which was 30 minutes.

I can't find my figures right now. My site where I keep them is down for maitenance, but I was going to show how that Days cost $150,000 a week in 1975, but the early 2000's had gotten to over a million dollars a week to produce. Even with inflation figured in, it had well exceeded the norm in production costs growth. That is very definitely leading to the destruction of soaps. They cost more to produce now than they are making for the networks.

[MarkH]

I have gone so far on here to give SPECIFIC PREDICTED DATES of soap cancellations :-). So I totally believe the old lady is on her last breath.

And then...a week like this happens on OLTL. And I see that there is still such hope, such life in the genre.

My hopes will undoubtedly be dashed a week from tomorrow, when Toups tells me the ratings fell or something.

And therein lies the rub....every time there IS positive growth, it is not rewarded.

And that makes my more fundamental point. These shows could be written BEAUTIFULLY...every show could be perfect...and I HONESTLY doubt the ratings would be much better than they are now. I think out-of-house-women in the daytime, too many viewing options (esp in primetime when Soapnet competes), disdain for the serial form (and especially for dinosaur shows that grandma used to watch...can't possibly be cool) ALL would have conspired to give soaps JUST ABOUT THE SAME ratings now, even if the soaps had never faltered creatively.

Despite that, the hopeful little boy in me is watching OLTL's ratings FERVENTLY. If it could trend up a little bit each week, then I'd feel like all is not lost.

So, I'm going to be very intent on those Thursday ratings for OLTL. Meanwhile, I'll be sobbing in the corner for my Y&R. How could they have done that to my show??? Tom Casiello's blog has made me SO angry! How could they put a woman in charge who allowed scripts be cobbled together in 24 hours?? Steam rising from my temples....

[All My Shadows]

Great points, Steve and Mark! You guys always have some insightful posts.

[GoldenDogs]

Awww, Eric... thanks for that. I gotta pass on thanks, then, to all those generous collectors who shared their material with us.

And I totally understand your thoughts about the overused, overhyped "daytime is dying" line. It HAS been uttered here or there frequently in the past many years. In fact, I do agree with most all comments here regarding where some of the blame can be pinned for the state of daytime today. Steve's point about overbearing fans embracing a single star, couple, or element of a specific show rather than the whole package is a key one. If we're to be honest about it, I would say for example, if Nuke fans extended their "love" to ATWT as a whole rather than campaigning solely for a single moment in that storyline to occur - or to obsess over a certain character/actor (TomHughesFan anyone?) - maybe a more general fan base could start to rebuild.

But there is another side to that point... and this side kind of alludes to what I was thinking about in my original post here at over at Snark's blog. Zendall Fan and Jack Payton feel that "acting like the final nail is being drilled into the coffin of the genre isn't helping matters either. Spreading doom and gloom certainly isn't going to get people to watch, it will have the opposite effect IMO."

Well then... give me something GOOD to watch! I'm not going to be dancing lightly about singing the praises of a show with crappy storylines, bad production values, and a rather pointless reason for existence (Uhhh, hello GL!) Nuke fans probably feel this way... why talk about anything other than Nuke when that couple is the freshest, most progressive storyline ON ATWT these days? Two sides to every point... I see both here.

But what ISN'T going to help the state of daytime right now is to blindly watch daily out of some misguided loyalty or adherence to longtime tradition. Though the "suits" aren't listening... we have to keep TELLING THEM what they're doing wrong and how they are destroying the genre. So, as it has become painfully clear that they have no interest in what we think or how we feel (since they OBVIOUSLY know so much better than we!), we have fought back the only way we can and with the only power left to us -- and that is to stop watching the crap.

Oh, I do hold out hope... I watched a bit of OLTL a couple of weeks ago and while it still isn't what it once was, I do see some improvement. Is it a great show? Hell no. Better than it has been in ages? YES. And I watched because it was. Wasn't good enough for me to set the recorder to catch it after work each day... but it's better. What keeps me from recording it? Track record... this is still the network of "Frons and Friends" and I can't help but think some bonehead decision awaits that will set back the progress again... Who here honestly believes Frons WON'T interfere in some way and mess it all up again???

Daytime has disappointed me one too many times... and that's why I don't have lots of positives to bring to the table. Sorry. I guess I'm just a bitchy jilted ex-lover who is nostalgic about how good it was and resentful that it is no longer that way. I'm such a bitch.

B

[SteveFrame]

Mark H,

Part of what you are talking about in that last post - goes back to fans too.

In the glory days of soaps fans stuck around - they were loyal because they got rewarded for that loyalty. Loyalty is a two way street - so I don't blame the fans fully on that one. The soaps have not given them any reason to remain loyal today.

But at the same time there is a new breed of soap fan today. And it is not so much that they are busier or anything, because they do still have loyalty to primetime shows and other shows that they will not miss an episode.

But daytime fans come and go with the tides these days. They don't stick around for the day to day growth of characters and plot. They tend to watch when things get exciting and then tune right back out - which makes GH's and others sweep stunts work out great.

The producers have bought into this and that is why you have these sudden surges of energy at various points. And that is another reason I can't give the powers that be any breaks. If I knew for sure that the mundane haphazard stuff they give us on a daily basis was all that they were capable of I could give them the benefit of the doubt. But when these same hacks can pull out a week of great programming because they actually tried then I know they are capable of a whole lot more. The rest of the time they just don't make the effort. So why should I reward them for not giving it 100%. My time is more precious and more valuable than that. If they can't give me their best then why should I give them my best.

And as to the thing of the comment: "the disdain for the serial format"

That is not longer true either. Over half of primetime now is basically the serial format. People don't have a disdain for the format. Soap Opera is not dying as a genre it is alive and well breathing fully in primetime.

Daytime soap opera is what is dying.

[EricMontreal22]

I stand by what I said. I've read a LOT of soap publications from all era and after the huge peaks of the early 80s rating wise people DID start VERY quickly predicting soaps were on the way out--I've read the Death of Soaps articles dated from as early as 1983 that's why it's hard not to think it's all exagerated.

(I do agree with nearly everything else you've said so well)

[marceline]

I think that the point is a lot of people don't think they're worth fighting for anymore. Like Brian said above, many of us tried to fight. We wrote and called and campaigned and got nothing. So screw 'em. Let em die.

[JackPeyton]

i understand that, but IMHO to have that stance means you need to stop watching and shut up.

dont mean to be harsh, but its true.

[GoldenDogs]

I think it's perfectly appropriate for those who are sad and disappointed to express those feelings. By this logic, Jack, you are asking those of us who feel disappointed or disgusted with the current political climate in America to stop voting and shut up about it. Unless I've misunderstood your statement... If I have, please tell me...

B

[JackPeyton]

Not at all. I'm saying that if its to the point where you do not enjoy it at all then why are you watching it? why are you dwelling on it? There is a lot more to life.

I understand being fed up and feeling like you cant take anymore, and even quitting watching and still posting, but when it comes to the point where its 100& negative and you feel like soaps ARE dead and there is no reason to watch then i just don't understand it.

The difference with the voting and what not is as long as you are active and you are voting and unhappy then by all means, but you cant note vote and then bitch. You made a choice to give up and IMHO just need to deal with it.

I guess i could never imagine being so angry and still going on and posting, i mean at some point doesn't it just get old? I feel i would move on and go to other message boards about things i like, but then again i try to post about things i like. Like when I'm not watching soaps i don't discuss them because obviously I'm unhappy.

I'm not saying no one has the right to be negative and get how they feel out there, by all means. You have every right to and i hope no one took it as me saying you don't.

But given the choice between venting about how soaps are dead and might as well be off the air and there no point anymore vs. discussing a new hookah flavor, or a vegas club, or a new drink mix, or a show i enjoy, its no choice for me.