This is the Presidential Campaign Thread.

Barack Obama Vs. John McCain.

Edited November 6, 200817 yr by Toups

You know over here, I think people should either pay attention and vote or not complain. Voting and participation is part of democracy.

You know something else, Jess?

Remeber how Obama got blasted by some in this thread for taking that trip overseas and giving that speech at that huge rally in Germany?

NOW when it suits people's purposes, non-Americans' thoughts are now warranted.

No I don't have selective memory, but I think you do. They did not admit to surveying an audience with a Dem majority, the admitted surveying undecided voters and most undecided voters classify themselves as democrats. Is that surprising to you?

What the hell is the difference?? "Classify" themselves as Dems...isn't that what I said?

As far as the Constitution, here is specifically what it says and it is in Article 2, the Executive:

"The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided."

That is what Biden said.

Joe Biden said ARTICLE 1..Ahhh! Wrong answer Joey!

Yep..like it or not...breaking a tie in the Senate is a legislative role...

By the way, nobody is making personal attacks against you, you just take everything personally, particularly when anyone disagrees with you. Get over yourself and have fun with this.

Get over yourself...I am not the one that singles others out...!! For the love of God..just read back...Wales talks about me being extremely offensive...Roman says he agrees with Wales...WTF? Who cares?? Other posters are far more guilty of taking things personal than myself..

So Casey, would you prefer that they ask people who did NOT watch the debate who won the debate?

The point I was trying to make was that ...they stated the audience that they surveyed were had a Dem majority? Did you see that part?

You know something else, Jess?

Remeber how Obama got blasted by some in this thread for taking that trip overseas and giving that speech at that huge rally in Germany?

NOW when it suits people's purposes, non-Americans' thoughts are now warranted.

Granted they don't get to vote over here, but I think their opinions are more important than ever. You think about our standing internationally and it is very alarming. I fear that we have lost our respect in the international community. The war and our immediate reaction to the war (you know the U.S. quitting the UN and shunning Germany and France) made us look bad. Now our economic mess is effecting the rest of the world. I am concerned.

And Roman beats Casey 1-0 in posting polls.....

Period.

And now we return to out regularly scheduled ISSUES discussion......already in progress.......

{{{{DRUDGE POLL}}}} WHO WON THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE?...

BIDEN 28% 60,604

PALIN 70% 149,183

NEITHER 2% 3,654

Total Votes: 213,441

http://drudgereport.com/

What the hell is the difference?? "Classify" themselves as Dems...isn't that what I said?

Joe Biden said ARTICLE 1..Ahhh! Wrong answer Joey!

Yep..like it or not...breaking a tie in the Senate is a legislative role...

Get over yourself...I am not the one that singles others out...!! For the love of God..just read back...Wales talks about me being extremely offensive...Roman says he agrees with Wales...WTF? Who cares?? Other posters are far more guilty of taking things personal than myself..

The point I was trying to make was that ...they stated the audience that they surveyed were had a Dem majority? Did you see that part?

Casey, you said the poll was the same as the Drudge poll and it is not. Also, give CNN credit, they acknowledged that more Dems than R's watched the debate and that was reflected in their survey. The bottom line, also and a point I made in an earlier post, is that who won the debate does not matter. People don't elect a debater. She made no big errors, she did not cost McCain votes.

Second, Biden said the vice president has no legislative role except to break a tie and that is what the Constitution says. He also said the Constitution included the vice president in the executive not the legislative, which is what it does. Yes, he said Article I when it actually was Article II, but what he said about the Constitution's role for the vice president was correct. (I trust you when you say he said Article I. I really do not remember if he said I or II or either) The vice president is not part of the legislative branch and the vice president's only role in voting is to break a tie. I think it is a fair discussion of the view of the President and the Vice President in regard to other branches of government.

I think President Bush, and particularly Vice President Cheney, tried to stretch the power of the executive beyond what the Constitution sought. Also, I disagree with what Palin said tonight and I think she overstated the role of the VP in relation to the legislative branch.

Finally, If you want to take things personal, have at it. I really don't think it accomplishes much for you, but it is up to you.

You know something else, Jess?

Remeber how Obama got blasted by some in this thread for taking that trip overseas and giving that speech at that huge rally in Germany?

NOW when it suits people's purposes, non-Americans' thoughts are now warranted.

Who in this thread is now warrenting non-American thoughts?

WOAH! Bill O'Reilly absolutely goes off on Barney Frank...I've never seen anything like this!! Crazy...

Thanks for posting that, Casey. Finally somebody tells the truth and calls an idiot like Barney Frank out for his ignorance.

Yes, friends, the Democrats have a huge part in this financial disaster. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Casey, you said the poll was the same as the Drudge poll and it is not. Also, give CNN credit, they acknowledged that more Dems than R's watched the debate and that was reflected in their survey. The bottom line, also and a point I made in an earlier post, is that who won the debate does not matter. People don't elect a debater. She made no big errors, she did not cost McCain votes.

Agreed..

Second, Biden said the vice president has no legislative role except to break a tie and that is what the Constitution says. He also said the Constitution included the vice president in the executive not the legislative, which is what it does. Yes, he said Article I when it actually was Article II, but what he said about the Constitution's role for the vice president was correct. (I trust you when you say he said Article I. I really do not remember if he said I or II or either) The vice president is not part of the legislative branch and the vice president's only role in voting is to break a tie. I think it is a fair discussion of the view of the President and the Vice President in regard to other branches of government.

Historically, the VP presides over the Senate (although, is only allowed a vote in the case of a tie)...but the VP is allowed to participate in debates and convey the President's messages.

I think President Bush, and particularly Vice President Cheney, tried to stretch the power of the executive beyond what the Constitution sought.

How?

Finally, If you want to take things personal, have at it. I really don't think it accomplishes much for you, but it is up to you.

Look...I'm not...so give it a rest..

I have to say I was impressed with how both potential vp's conducted themselves at the debate. I felt like Sarah is still dodging questions though, its fine that she wants to talk to the American people, she can do that and answer hard questions about herself and McCain. I didn't like all that talk about alaska, she is running for vp, not re-election for the gov. of Alaska. I think both were winners tonight, sarah proved that she does have some sort of grasp on things. But I think overall Biden was the winner, he was more knowledgeable, did not dodge any questions, and was more confident.imo

Thanks for posting that, Casey. Finally somebody tells the truth and calls an idiot like Barney Frank out for his ignorance.

Yes, friends, the Democrats have a huge part in this financial disaster. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

O'Reilly went wild...didn't he? I applaud him as well..

Agreed..

Historically, the VP presides over the Senate (although, is only allowed a vote in the case of a tie)...but the VP is allowed to participate in debates and convey the President's messages.

How?

Look...I'm not...so give it a rest..

OK, we agree on most points and I will respect your argument that you are not taking things personally.

On Bush and Cheney, Cheney has tried to maintain that he is part of the executive and the legislative and as a result does not have to turn over certain documents sought by the legislature. That is just not true. Bush sided with him on that.

Bush has also tried to argue that he does not have to respond to legislative requests for information (in his defense, I will say other presidents have tried that too).

Mark my words...you will see a shift in the polls...in the direction of McCain..

Great job Sarah!

I'm not interested in the polls. They can shift this way and that, I don't think they're accurate. I don't care what they say... they serve only to attempt to sway others in opinion or action.

I think Sarah Palin did a great job. Did she win it? I don't know. I don't think it is possible to win a debate unless your opponent screws up so badly that those who judge such things can't help but declare a winner. Biden didn't screw up... he was all so very... bland. Your typical older, white smile-and-a-wink politician. He is, in many ways, the exact type of person liberal Democrats DON'T want in office. But ideology wins out over principle every time when it comes to those people.

I have to say I was impressed with how both potential vp's conducted themselves at the debate. I felt like Sarah is still dodging questions though, its fine that she wants to talk to the American people, she can do that and answer hard questions about herself and McCain. I didn't like all that talk about alaska, she is running for vp, not re-election for the gov. of Alaska. I think both were winners tonight, sarah proved that she does have some sort of grasp on things. But I think overall Biden was the winner, he was more knowledgeable, did not dodge any questions, and was more confident.imo

I agree with you. I think they treated each other with a great deal of respect also. I will say that I think both of them dodged the question about where they would cut the budget.

I'm not interested in the polls. They can shift this way and that, I don't think they're accurate. I don't care what they say... they serve only to attempt to sway others in opinion or action.

I think Sarah Palin did a great job. Did she win it? I don't know. I don't think it is possible to win a debate unless your opponent screws up so badly that those who judge such things can't help but declare a winner. Biden didn't screw up... he was all so very... bland. Your typical older, white smile-and-a-wink politician. He is, in many ways, the exact type of person liberal Democrats DON'T want in office. But ideology wins out over principle every time when it comes to those people.

IA. I believe Palin was far more successful in reaching out to the undecideds..That is what I would consider "winning"..I think the polls will reflect that..(sorry I am a poll junkie).

Palin Takes On A New Foe: Her Image

The challenge to Fey, who is scheduled to play the Alaska governor and Republican candidate again on the next "SNL" broadcast, will be to out-Palin Palin, to make the parody more outrageous than the original.

At the same time, Palin seemed determined to banish thoughts of her as airheaded and inexperienced; she was really debating her own public image rather than Sen. Joe Biden. She subverted the whole purpose of the exercise by merely repeating the key points of her running mate, Sen. John McCain, and ignoring questions that called for more specific answers.

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People who came to the debate loving Sarah Palin probably went away from it loving her as much as ever. People who came to the debate hoping to see a fiasco, to see Palin make colossal gaffes, had to have been disappointed. She may have swayed a few "undecideds" her way with her mom-next-door demeanor and seemingly indomitable smile. There were mistakes here and there, but they were mostly minor -- but then, Palin's answers in the debate were more about herself than about the policies of McCain or George W. Bush or even the country's current economic crisis.

Palin scolded the Democrat from Delaware if he dared to mention the name of Bush, the similarities between Bush and McCain -- in terms of philosophy, voting record and approach to foreign policy -- or even to acknowledge the existence of the past eight years of Republican rule. "There you go again, pointing backward again," she said to Biden, imitating Ronald Reagan's famous "there you go again" rejoinder to Jimmy Carter in a 1980 presidential debate. She continued her smiling reprimand by using the phrase "now, doggone it," another of the folksy colloquialisms with which she (carefully?) seasons her speech.

"Sarah Palin was sensational tonight," roared Pat Buchanan in post-debate comment on the MSNBC cable network. "She regained that magic she had at the convention."

He may have gone too far -- it wouldn't be the first time -- but Buchanan was correct that Palin made and sustained very good eye contact with the camera. (Buchanan chided Biden for addressing himself mostly to the moderator, PBS's Gwen Ifill, though Biden also looked at Palin.)

MSNBC anchor Rachel Maddow, one of the fastest-rising and most enigmatic personalities in talk television, listened patiently to Buchanan's praise for Palin's presentation and responded, "Boring but right versus exciting and wrong -- that's America's choice?" Commentators on many of the networks marveled at Palin's insistence on avoiding substantial comment on issues and on simply ignoring questions she couldn't answer convincingly.

Palin basically stated early in the debate that this would be her strategy. She said she wasn't necessarily going to respond to the questions of the moderator or charges from Biden, but instead, "I'm gonna talk right to the American people." Since this was billed as a debate, not a speech, her remark came across as arrogant, and as an admission she would duck tough questions.

Biden had many eloquent moments and spoke with conviction throughout, also being careful not to attack Palin and look like a big mean Beltway Bully. But after Palin had called McCain a "maverick" for maybe the 4,000th time, Biden had perhaps his finest moment, speaking loudly and emphatically when he said of the senator from Arizona, "He's been no 'maverick' on the things that matter to people's lives" and on "the things that people talk about around the kitchen table."

Virtually the only emotionally affecting moment in the debate came when Biden was talking about knowing the challenges of being a single parent. He choked up and briefly lost his voice when he spoke of not knowing if a child "is going to make it." In 1972, Biden's wife and daughter died in a car crash and his two sons were so badly injured that it was feared they would not survive, but they did.

Old charges against Sen. Barack Obama, Biden's running mate, were repeated by Palin and shot down again by Biden. At moments the debate seemed oppressively predictable. But even those who find Palin anything but an ideal choice to be vice president (an office she said should have more power), much less president of the United States, had to admit that those winks and twinkles are brought off with a certain style.

Tina Fey has her work cut out for her.

Edited October 3, 200817 yr by Roman