vetsoapfan

Awww, shucks. As an original cast member, beloved by the fans, Jacqueline Courtney was an important cornerstone of Bay City at the time. The day I dropped the show for good, as a daily viewer, was the day I saw Susan Harney in the role of Alice. It hadn't helped matters that I found David Bailey so stodgy and one dimensional as Russ, and that Virginia Dwyer and George Reinholt had also gotten the axe. I was hanging in for Courtney, and when she was dismissed, my patience with the show evaporated. (It takes A LOT for me to drop a favorite soap. I continued with ATWT and TGL to the bitter end, primarily because of a few veteran characters/actors whom I cared for.) TIIC at most soaps have made this same blunder for decades, and they never learn. P&G continued the idiocy by decimating several vets Hughes from ATWT and the Bauers from TGL in the early 1980s, moves which seriously damaged those series. Right. Recognizable human drama is relevant at any time, through any decade. This reminds me: at one point, someone asked Jamie how he and Sally were related, since his father was planning to adopt Sally too, and Sally had ended up as a Frame. Jamie replied, "She's like a cousin or something." That line has always stuck with me, because...it was stupid, LOL. If anything, Sally could be called his stepsister, through her adoption by Jamie's stepmother. (But since Steven died, even that description is "iffy"). THIS! As long as viewers are emotionally attached to the characters, they will persevere with a soap for a long, long time. If all their best-loved characters are written out, however, and the shows are poorly written and produced, viewers drift away. AW, ATWT and TGL (among others) lasted much longer than their substandard quality deserved, and I believe die-hard viewer loyalty helped them...until it just wasn't enough anymore.

@DRW50 You wrote a fine piece here. For those of us who had watched and loved AW from the beginning, eliminating the Matthews family was like choosing to get rid of the Waltons from...well, from The Waltons. It took the heart out of the show, and after they were gone and the writing continued to get worse, many veteran viewers simply felt that AW wasn't AW any more.

Antipathy towards a certain host does end up bringing the viewing community together, however.😁 That is a fact, and can engender various sentiments.🤨

"It's nice to see her responding to fans and to see memories of people who were watching back then. I can imagine cost saving was a factor, especially given the quality of some of the recasts (Alice, for one)."--@DRW50 God, yes. I think Wesley Pfenning was the most bizarrely-miscast Alice, and Vanna Tribbey was the blandest, but Susan Harney's version of the character just didn't have the depth, vulnerability or warmth that Alice needed. She also couldn't cry convincingly to save her life (but I guess I am quibbling now, LOL). George Reinholt once acknowledged that he was earning 70 thousand dollars a year on the new, hour-long AW in 1975. I imagine Jacquie Courtney had a similar salary. I wonder what P&G offered Susan Harney as JC's replacement.🤔

Alan makes my teeth ache, LOL.

I couldn't deal with it. The entire scenario was just so far removed from the ATWT that I had grown up with; such a drastic shift in style, tone and presentation made the show feel alien to me. That era, to me, started the erosion of the show. https://henryjenkins.org/2013/04/as-the-world-stopped-turning-lynn-liccardo-talks-about-soap-operas-part-one.html?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1scP4YRmhJe4AhP_pY4w2d4aajFpquIW3XwRAY0qAmL6EROeqKTHlbwZE_aem_rlFB18R38LxZzf2v22mrxA

LOL, personally, I loathed both of those characters, so having them featured so much did not endear the show runners to me at all.

Yes, if Y&R had not been having trouble, it might have had stronger ratings. My point is, however, that GH was a cultural phenomenon at the time, garnering endless publicity, buzz and huge ratings. Unlike Y&R, TGL was in DIRECT COMPETITION with this daytime powerhouse, and still held its own. Maybe as GH's direct time-slot competitor, Y&R would have done much worse, considering it was weaker than TGL then. Even under such challenging circumstances, pre-Kobe's TGL was still strong. After her diddling, not so much. Soap fans are a hardy bunch, and hang on for a long time, but there comes a point when they've finally had enough. After years of dreck on screen, I think viewers had just become disenchanted with the show, expecting it never to become "the real" TGL again. Ironically, they turned away from it just when its short-lived rejuvenation was underway. I've seen that happen so many times to so many shows. They make marked improvements after years of being in the toilet, but viewers are so fed up and burned out by then, they don't come back.

In the long run, TGL was significantly more crippled than helped by Gail Kobe. Pamela Long eventually developed into a decent scribe, but her early years were a mixed bag at best, with a lot of weaknesses interspersed with some successes. When left alone at the helm, Jeff Ryder's deficit as a writer was painfully apparent. When GH lost Luke and Laura and sunk into sci-fi hell, sure, alienated viewers took a look-see at TGL. This produced a temporary, artificial bump in the ratings. But it did not last. The steady downward spiral in numbers experienced by TGL throughout the rest of the 1980s confirms that it was just not producing the kind of material its former audience wanted to see. When GH was a stellar soap and a rating's powerhouse at the beginning of the decade, TGL was pulling in an impressive 8.2. By 1989, even with GH in poor condition, it was much better rated than TGL, with its measly 5.4. Despite Kobe's and Long's assertions and bragging, our show was healthier before they tampered with it.

Gotta love John Beradino!

@DRW50, I always love seeing footage of Ellen and David Stewart, but this what not the best era of the show. Miranda was a dud. Everything with Mr. Big was an insult. Thank God ATWT was able to rebound from the mess Mary Ellis Bunim wrought.

Thanks, @slick jones. I remember Hobbs from various things, but mainly for his appearances on the stellar television drama I'LL FLY AWAY. I've always wonder why that fine series has never been commercially released. I've never seen it released in syndication, either, at least in Canada. Pity.

While Bailey was perfectly adequate, he never managed to bring any range to Russ, as opposed to Sam Groom whose performances were varied and nuanced. Bailey felt to me like he should have been cast as a generic, stolid lawyer on a Quinn Martin production. (Yikes, I'm aging myself there!) Firing cornerstone actress Jacqueline Courtney was a massive blunder. While some of her replacements were less bad than others, Alice just wasn't a draw anymore. While Victoria Wyndham eventually became accepted as Rachel, Robin Strasser's original replacement, Margaret Impert, was a flop. Major actors should not be replaced unless there is no other choice. With JC, the show had had a choice and made the wrong one. Richard Bekins is a good example of a replacement who worked out very well. Judith Light on OLTL took over the role of Karen and brought it to new heights. But IMHO, more often than not, viewers tend to prefer the original actors whom they know. I called Peter Simon "the fake Ed" for a solid 27 years, LOL! Soaps have always made the inexplicable decision to kill off beloved characters by choice. I don't like it, but at least Lee Randolph never had to endure being turned into a clone, a ghost, a time traveller or a San Cristocrapian queen. She can rest in peace!

Marie Horton, Lorie Brooks and Heather Lawrence (Somerset) had no idea they were falling in love with their brothers, so there was less of a toxic component to those relationships, particularly since they ended as soon as the truth was revealed. If Susan Matthews had loved Bill "too much" when she knew very well they were siblings, the ick factor would have been significant. In the 1970s, I found David Bailey to be bland after enjoying Sam Groom as Russ. I found Susan Harney to be shrill and unable to carry heavy emotional scenes effectively; a big comedown after JC. IMHO, Brian Murray was pompous as the new Dan Shearer, and Lynn Milgram was just...a little creepy as Susan. Aside from Irene Dailey as Aunt Liz and Beverly Penberthy as Pat, the Matthewses were not flourishing in my eyes.

IIRC, The Somerset Register was a fan site launched and written by the same gentleman who gave us The Edge of Night Home Page. (If I'm misremembering, someone please let me know.) Back in the day, I kept extensive scrapbooks on Another World, Somerset, Days of Our Lives, The Young and the Restless, The Guiding Light, Dark Shadows, and How to Survive a Marriage, with newspaper and magazine articles and interviews, storyline synopses, photos, critiques, etc. Everything on TEON and SOM websites correlated with the published information which I had collected in my scrapbooks. The sites were well-researched and highly informative. If the info about Bill Matthews and SOM was posted on the Somerset Register webpage, I'd bet it was accurate. Speaking of soap sites, Jason's DAYS page and The Another World Homepage are extraordinary achievements with mountains of historical data.

I know that Harding Lemay had flirted covertly with Iris having repressed incestuous feelings for her "daddy," and because they were his own creations, I couldn't quibble. That being said, even covert feelings of incest being hinted at within the Matthews family would have made longtime viewers' heads explode! Like, ewww.🤢

Although I was no longer watching and recording AW every single day in 1978-79 (I had become disenchanted with the show after the cast purge of 1975), I did tune in from time to time. I remember the speculation about Bill Matthews potentially being alive, that nothing ever came of it, and that the entire business just faded into oblivion. One curious scene I recall vividly had Susan Matthews out at Alice's house in the country. Alice cheerfully suggested that as an outing, they could go boating on the lake. Susan visibly flinched and looked away, distressed. When asked what was wrong, she quietly reminded Alice that her brother Bill had died in a boating accident, which resulted in her being resistant to engaging in that sort of activity ever since. She spoke about how much Bill's death had affected her, because loved him very deeply. Then, almost in a reverie, she murmured, "Sometimes I think I loved him...too much." Um...what the heck was THAT supposed to mean? The show never elaborated on what Susan was implying, and she never said anything like that again (as far as I saw/heard), but I wondered what kind of can of worms Harding Lemay might have been toying with there.

Yes, but P&G could have recast the role if they had chosen to. So it's hard to say whether they wanted to kill off Bill Matthews to facilitate a new story for Missy, anyway, or if they had hoped to include him on Somerset if Gallison had been free and interested. I hate back-from-the dead plots, but I found it to be a blow to the Matthews and Randolph families to lose Lee Randolph and Bill. Both clans were basically wiped out over the years. If Bill had ever popped up alive, I would not have objected too strenuously.

There were many questionable and/or pointless story and character decisions made at that time. There have been different reports on this situation. Some contend that Joe Gallison wanted to be done with AW. Others say it was not his choice for Bill to be killed off, but TBTB felt there would more more storyline fodder for Missy in Somerset as a young widow. Still others point out that he was on OLTL when Somerset began, and just wasn't available to return to AW as Bill anyway. This makes the most sense, IMHO. Gallison continued in daytime for years, on OLTL, Return to Peyton Place, and DAYS, so I doubt he would have willingly turned down a chance to return to a leading role on a popular soap, only to remain in the world of soaps elsewhere. His current employment tied his hands. In any case, with conflicting stories on why Bill was killed off, I doubt we will ever have a definite answer to the mystery after 54 years, alas.

Both AW and TGL were riddled with so many disposable and irrelevant characters in their later years; many of whom never caught on with the audience (IMHO). If either show could have benefited by crossing over highly-popular actors/characters from the other soap, it would have been a bonus for the audience to continue seeing old friends on screen. I never felt there was any real chemistry between Willis and Angie, or Will and NuAlice. Plus, the idea of Alice falling in love with him felt absurd to me, since she had already made it clear she did not trust Willis. What??? An actor who vexed Paul Rauch??? Whoever heard of such a scenario?🤔🙄 I remember Uncle Dru being talked about when the family received a postcard from him after he had left town on his world tour in 1971. Russom just wasn't leading man material. For Alice, especially, the show needed a dynamic romantic lead for her. When Jacquie Courtney returned in 1984, AW tried to pair Alice with the character of Mark Singleton. Actor Robin Thomas was serviceable enough, but had " tepid supporting character" written all over him. That relationship was a dud.

I was furious.

LOL!

Great post, @slick jones! Your wrists must get worn out from all that endless typing! I got exhausted just looking at the lengthy text!

In real life, many parents would become self-destructive in that circumstance, I believe. I cannot imagine anything being worse than losing your child. I'm not being facetious or making a joke when I say that even losing my beloved dog sent me into deep despair for an extended period. Losing a child would literally kill me.

After her passing, John did not mention Lee much (if at all) for a long time. Then one day, Pat and Marianne had a conversation about her. This was under Harding Lemay. Marianne asked her mom why John never spoke about Lee, and Pat acknowledged that he still found it unbearable, because losing her was so painful. Also under Lemay, someone brought up Aunt Liz's late son Bill. Irene Dailey (who played the moment beautifully) choked right up and struggled to get the words out: "There are some things you never really get over." Both of this scenes were poignant examples of the small moments soaps can do so well.