San Cristobel was when the show had officially past go and couldn't turn arond and fix itself. Yet a bunch of new characters that we were stuck with for years (Edmund, Olivia) and just a vehicle to feature Reva.. when her time as main character was well and done. Shame no one with enough backbone and balls didn't just backburner the character and/or fire Zimmer (who I find to be almost a bully)

36 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

LOL at the bolded part. I agree with you here. Sure, it's her brother, but Blake really takes the cake with lying and hurting people. Sure, not physically, but absolutely emotionally and mentally.

It's part of the problem after watching for a long period of time, you know where everyone's skeletons are buried. It's part of the reason I got so fed up with Reva by the end. (well, long before the end, but at the end, I couldn't watch her without going out of my mind. She does crap to Lizzie (long story), but then everyone's supposed to feel sorry for the fact she's briefly considered a murder suspect thanks to Dinah (a longer story).)

6 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

San Cristobel was when the show had officially past go and couldn't turn arond and fix itself. Yet a bunch of new characters that we were stuck with for years (Edmund, Olivia) and just a vehicle to feature Reva.. when her time as main character was well and done. Shame no one with enough backbone and balls didn't just backburner the character and/or fire Zimmer (who I find to be almost a bully)

I don't think SC was the end - the show had some real signs of recovery in late 2002. I think if there was an end it was down to the show having no set identity and just flinging itself around too much based on the writer or producer at the time. I think that was an issue with GL for so many years. No show can be sustained with such whiplash.

10 minutes ago, P.J. said:

It's part of the problem after watching for a long period of time, you know where everyone's skeletons are buried. It's part of the reason I got so fed up with Reva by the end. (well, long before the end, but at the end, I couldn't watch her without going out of my mind. She does crap to Lizzie (long story), but then everyone's supposed to feel sorry for the fact she's briefly considered a murder suspect thanks to Dinah (a longer story).)

Ohh the intrigue now! Sounds like Dinah is still a schemer when she returns, and I sort of love that she's going against Reva. She did slightly during Dinah/Annie's friendship during Alan/Annie's wedding and all that drama, and I liked it.

@alwaysAMC yeah, David kreizman basically reset Dinah to how she was when WM started in the role.

Could so.eone refresh my memory on the murder plot? I started to lose interest when they began those wednesday "inside the light" episodes.

2002 was a brief glimmer of hope which was all dashed by ConJob. Taggart/Culliton had three stories lined up..

1. Marah connecting with reva's stalker who was going to be revealed as jonathan.

2. A business storyline with Holly and Josh teaming to take over Spaulding. Blake rejoined SE and the PR biz. Ben (and Marina?) started working at Spaulding.

3. Gus being revealed to be Alan's son instead of Miguel Santos and Selina's son. ConJo. Kept this one but put their own spin with Alex drugging Alan and gaslighting.

4. Also, Holly was helping Ed from adjusting to home life and dealing with a hinted traumatic experience in Africa. Bill/Michelle were paired. Danny was paired with Cassie. The island and mob stuff was clearly being phased out after Prince Richard died and Carmen was put into an endless coma. Also the ex-wives club with Joan Collins Alex felt like old-gl. Mindy and India briefly returned.

To me the beginning of the end was ConJob. After that their was the first few months of Wheeler/ Kreizman then it all went to heck with the dragged out (nearly a year!) Harley on the run for murder and Alan putting hits on people who could exonerate her. Then the aftermath of that plot was even worse with a certain character as an off-screen bogey man pulling all the strings behind the scenes.

Edited 18 hours ago18 hr by Spoon

@Spoon spoiler

there's a lot I skip through, so I miss the finer points. but basically at the end, Edmund plots to regain his grandson (Shayne's son) who Mallet and Marina have adopted thanks to Dinah. He threatens Colin (Reva's kid) and Dinah kills a guy who she thinks is Edmund (I think he had paid someone to impersonate him as a diversion). Reva is held/questioned, I guess, I'm not exactly sure how far it goes. Suspicion ultimately lands on Marina, and Dinah finds this out right after marrying Shayne. Dinah confesses to Mallet, just before he's about to arrest his wife. Frank overhears, and is going to arrest Dinah. Mallet arranges for her to skip town. She tells Shayne what she did, which pisses him off because of the Reva connection and that she didn't trust him. She leaves him. The only other person she tells what she did is Vanessa, who tells her she understands and that she's glad she's running.

unless you mean Harley, then nevermind. I don't remember.

@alwaysAMC yeah, Dinah pretty much picks up where WM left off. But more unlikeable. Or less motivated and heavily plot-pointed.

Edited 18 hours ago18 hr by P.J.

I thought GT's Dinah felt more layered, nuanced. I think she won two EMMYS for the role, not that that means anything. When Dinah got shot in the head and was dealing with mental impairment, those scenes were excellent. Tognoni's Dinah wanted to be a somewhat better person, but she had that lingering jealousy of Cassie that held her back. I forget the excuse they had for why Dinah was mad at Vanessa when she ca.e back after all the lengths she took to help her evade the authorities.

Dinah is usually mad at Vanessa. Or at least unwilling to listen to anything Van has to say. I think when Dinah returned in '04, we found out that Dinah had been imprisoned most of the time she'd been out of town. That she had never been pregnant (the excuse that sends Van out of town), and Van didn't know where she was a lot of the time. I don't know if the later regime even explained what Vanessa knew, or they just skipped it, and the viewers were left to fill in the blanks.

When Dinah returned, she tries to be Cassie's surrogate, which both Ross and Van try to stop. After Van returns to town (after Ross' death), it's pretty much one long, string of Vanessa trying to help her daughter, Dinah refusing that help and then blowing up at Van when her life blows up anyway. The big thing was Dinah getting shot, which Vanessa ultimately blames on &&&& because he got involved with the loanshark and Dinah catches a bullet from it. They actually divorce because of it, although they don't tell Dinah until she's along in her recovery.

4 hours ago, P.J. said:

While I get that Vanessa was wrong, and that Hart was Blake's brother...there are times Blake had a lot of nerve being angry at other people's lies. There was not enough Febreze *yes, product placement* in the world to cover the stench of her affair with Ben, and on top of how she'd lied for months about the paternity of her children. Vanessa made a snap decision, and chose to go to jail. I can't remember Blake ever doing anything but crying and moaning apologies. And surely there was a felony or a dozen in her list of crap.

Oh, and WTF? Reva had those beginning years with Marah. Sure, it was only until Marah was about 4/5, but she still had them. But any excuse to get laid, I guess.

Blake really never paid much of any consequences for her scheming pre-Ross. Watching it in quick succession, Blake’s relationship with Ross is shown as her redemption arc but it’s pretty unearned. Even after starting to develop feelings for Ross her desire to hurt Holly never went away. While AM was stringing her along so she could help him at work, the only reason he was even speaking to her post fake pregnancy/Gary was sheer force of will on her end. AM in the end was the one who got the most villainized out of their relationship-she never really faced much consequence for what she did to AM (and to a lesser extent Phillip). They drew the lesson for her that she chose the wrong men to set up Ross as her salvation, but she did more than her fair share to destroy her other relationships.

Well, her punishment was usually getting treated like dirt by the next guy. She screws over Phillip and jumps to A-M, both while dealing with Gary's obsessive, spiraling plots, which at different times nearly cost both men their lives. A-M then uses her, which, well, is shitty, but kinda justified. Maybe her leaving Ben is supposed to be growth, but she just expects Ross to forgive and forget.

I remember it all, so it'll be interesting to see if they address whether or not there's lingering disagreements directed at Ross over Dinah's escape. Even if he didn't help Van, I don't think he wanted his kid behind bars either and believed that it was accidental.

24 minutes ago, P.J. said:

Well, her punishment was usually getting treated like dirt by the next guy. She screws over Phillip and jumps to A-M, both while dealing with Gary's obsessive, spiraling plots, which at different times nearly cost both men their lives. A-M then uses her, which, well, is shitty, but kinda justified. Maybe her leaving Ben is supposed to be growth, but she just expects Ross to forgive and forget.

I remember it all, so it'll be interesting to see if they address whether or not there's lingering disagreements directed at Ross over Dinah's escape. Even if he didn't help Van, I don't think he wanted his kid behind bars either and believed that it was accidental.

AM isn't at all blameless, but Blake really created a no-win situation for him (and herself). She was consistently aggressively pursuing him both romantically and professionally, and he certainly took advantage of the situation. Almost everything is classic Blake from that period-she gets hurt but a lot is because she set things in motion. AM almost for sure doesn't end up marrying Eleni if she doesn't call immigration, for instance. By the time he marries Eleni, he basically is a jerk if he does anything to threaten their professional relationship but putting up the boundaries he needed to not lead her on were nearly impossible without doing that. But ultimately, as much as she blames AM or Holly, what is the death knell for her was her own deception of calling immigration. (And Eleni figuring out her other more subtle machinations to interfere in the AM/Eleni marriage.) But they have basically everyone in Blake's life not named Holly let Blake off the hook for her own part in things.

I feel like having her go straight to Ross as a real couple when basically it was yet another relationship that began from her scheming had Blake learning the wrong lessons. Basically the lesson is the "good" ones don't leave and not that if you lie/manipulate constantly you can't ever be secure in a relationship. You can see it being a pretty consistent problem for the entire Bloss relationship. It also doesn't do Ross any favors because Blake feels she can just act vulnerable and get what she wants from Ross and most of the time she's right.

17 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

San Cristobel was when the show had officially past go and couldn't turn arond and fix itself. Yet a bunch of new characters that we were stuck with for years (Edmund, Olivia) and just a vehicle to feature Reva.. when her time as main character was well and done. Shame no one with enough backbone and balls didn't just backburner the character and/or fire Zimmer (who I find to be almost a bully)

Why TPTB did not tell Zimmer to stay in her lane and get ready to have a bit less airtime is anyone's guess. Kimmer had her dollies on the string like her crazy fan base who would write in any time Kimmer told them to and she also had friends in the soap press, which may have been because Zimmer gave them the poop on the other actors behind their backs. But it still is weird, she was well past the point that everyman in town would fall in love with her, and her storylines are always about situations and not about Reva. This would have been the perfect time to give Reva the menopause or cancer storyline to bring Reva down totearth, and I think Kimmer would be great at it and happy to act a storyline ABOUT Reva and not a silly situation.