Why do "new" soaps...

[MarkH]

I'm 99% sure the newspaper angle is wrong. Rags was supposed to be about the fashion trade...as it was. CBS clearly wanted a title that was more evocative of Y&R's.

[CSF]

Thanks for clearing that up Mark. I wonder if there would have been any difference in the show if it had been titled Rags as opposed to B&B.

[LoveDays]

I think that everyone has made some real good and valid points!

I want to believe that the genre can make a strong comeback and big. Contrary to the belief, there are still alot of women and people in general who do not work and would probably turn back on the soaps. But what I think is the huge problem to the genre right now is the constant interference of the networks. The network execs for some reason believe they know whats best and what demographic soaps should be catering to and then TPTB just agree and help dismantle the soap making its identity unrecognizable. It's ashame that the soaps no longer do what they used to do , utilizing more location, hitting fans up with a heavy dose of romance, grand love stories, families that make you feel like you apart of them, the emotions, trials and tribulations that pull at your heart strings.

Now one of the main reasons why soaps can't make it or don't make it is beause the networks nowadays do not give the new soaps a chance to grow and obtain an audience. Sunset Beach and Passions had audiences and proved during different months that they could get their ratings up. The problem ultimately with that fell on the writers because they did not maintain that increase by providing quality storylines and character development.

In the cases of Another World (OH HOW I MISS THIS SOAP), Ryan's Hope, Loving, Capitol, The Doctors, Search for Tomorrow, The Edge of Night and Santa Barbara, network interference really played a big part in their cancellations. This is why the network needs to mind their own business and only be concerned when they need to be, but for the most part give the soaps the freedom that they had in the 60s, 70, and 80s. I want the genre to survive and I want some old soaps to make a return as well as new.

What I miss about DAYTIME of OLD is the advertising, promos, gameshows, the lead-ins, and etc. It was great when the soaps would advertize for their other soaps. Remember ABC's "Love in the Afternoon, NBC's "It Will Excite You", CBS's many different ones, my favorite of theirs would have to be the early 80s when it was Young and the Restless, As The World Turns, Search For Tomorrow. I miss that the gameshows were a big part of Daytime and often times were the big lead-ins for soaps, and a few Daytime talk shows fit in there too. I think TPTB and network execs need to take a real look back into their past and the past storytelling of soaps that really garnered the high ratings as well as what did they network do differently then that had everything so highly rated and no doubtedly successful! THAT IS THE DAYTIME THAT I LONG TO SEE AGAIN AND IT CAN HAPPEN IF EVERYONE DOES THEIR PART!

I know this, I'm writing my own soap and plan to reinvigorate the genre, I just need some more people to help me out and flow with my vision!

[CSF]

It was more of the writing that hurt Capitol than network interference. Besides, I think it was only to be on temporarily (in CBS' eyes) to make way for a new Bell soap.

Loving never stood a chance. The reason for that was because ABC decided to move Ryan's Hope to noon or 11:30 and Loving at 12:30. I think Agnes Nixon wanted AMC moved to 12:30 and Loving to air between AMC and OLTL, but ABC didn't like that idea. However, I think if they did it that way, Loving would have been just fine as AMC was the second highest rated soap when Loving aired. Instead, ABC put it against CBS' highest rated soap. Big mistake! I also think that if ABC moved AMC to 12:30 directly opposite Y&R in the 1980s, it would have hindered Y&R's success. Y&R dropped pretty much when it expanded to an hour and aired from 1pm to 2pm, directly opposite AMC in 1980/1981.

SFT pretty much held it's own when CBS canceled it. It lost it's audience when NBC picked it up. Also, many NBC affiliates were dropping it left and right.

Edge dropped when P&G wanted it to air in that block they created. That was the real kiss of death to Edge on CBS.

As for Santa Barbara, Another World, Ryan's Hope and The Doctor's, I totally agree, network interference really played a big part in their cancelations. I guess you can even add Port Charles and Sunset Beach to that list as well.

[Paul Raven]

I remember that in some markets ABC trialled Loving at 1.30 by moving AMC to 12.30.I think the move improved Loving's ratings but AMC dropped.

It was reported in SOW,I'll try and find the issue.

Port Charles was a mistake from the beginning.No spin-off has ever worked.The show never capitalized on the connection successfully due to production/writing clashes so what's the point?

ABC should have gone with a new concept and stuck with it.

[CSF]

That's interesting about the move. I didn't know any tried it. I'm surprised that their ratings (AMC) did drop though. Maybe ABC should have kept AMC at 12:30 when they moved it for a short while when Ryan's Hope debuted. Then when it expanded in 1977, it would have aired from 12:30-1:30 and really could have helped Ryan's Hope, then eventually Loving.

As for Port Charles, that show was a disaster. I think the only reason they went with it over Claire Labine's creation was because it was cheaper to produce. I just think that if it was connected more with GH where you had to watch both GH and PC on a daily basis, it would have been just fine.

[leevo64]

Port Charles had the potential to be great. Lucy, Kevin and Scotty were all wonderful characters from GH who could have carried any story. I actually enjoyed the original story for the three with Dominique's sister coming to town with her uncle (Not sure if it was her uncle... Wayne Northrop?) and wanting Serena for the money. The first mistake the show ever made was to do a serial killer story a year into the run. The General Homicide murders were overly campy and immediately made me tune out since I didn't know which characters I should bother getting invested in. Then when the killer was revealed to be Julie, then Greg, then Julie it just got ridiculous. Some people also really loved the thirteen-week arcs, but to me they took out any character-driven developments that were left on the show. And towards the end, starting with Naked Eyes, the arcs became less distinguishable and it became more of a continuing story about vampires.

So I guess the answer is that new soaps often have too many identities.

[rhinohide]

I hate to say this because it sounds so defeatist, but I just don't think there is that much potential to lure back former viewers, and even less to draw in new viewers. I know I have taken long breaks from soaps in the past, and I usually got hooked back in because I was sick one day and nothing else interesting was on the TV that day except my old faithfuls, and I tuned in and saw something familiar but interesting enough that I wanted to know what was going to happen the next day.

First of all, I've had maybe 10 sick days in as many years. Secondly, if I wasn't watching OLTL regularly now (what am I saying? I'm not watching OLTL regularly now!), I have enough primetime stuff saved on the DVR, and there are enough alternatives on cable, that I wouldn't be limited to or even tempted by that choice. And if I was curious enough to give it a try -- I wouldn't recognize it.

[bellcurve]

Well, no soap with a one word title has ever worked in the US. And no soap that was named after the "Geographical" town or place in which it is set has ever worked either.

[CSF]

Granted none thus far has lasted, but I disagree with that statement.

If B&B went through with it's original name but carried out the way B&B has over the past 22 years, it would be right where B&B is today with a one word title.

If PC coincided more with GH and had more crossovers where you had to follow GH and PC at the same time, I think it certainly would have still been on to this day, celebrating 12 seasons.

In PC's case, maybe what would have been the more clever thing to do would have been to send Sonny, Jason, Jax to that show with some of the characters they did send there like Karen and Joe and do the mob BS on there and see how that paned out. GH focusing on GH and PC focusing on the Mob and the dock and all that nonsense.

[bellcurve]

I think CBS saw that new soaps were having a difficult time establishing themselves. Even though Santa Barbara has grown into this cult phenomenon, it still wasn't a ratings juggernaut.

And we've said many times on this board that staying from tradition never works with new shows. I think that also includes soap titles as well. "Rags" is just some simple, boring title. That doesn't really tell me if the show is a soap opera, a CBS newsmagazine, or a talk show about newspapers and fashion. By going with the title, "The Bold and the Beautiful," it's more catchy, it's more memorable and doesn't get lost in the bunch.

In terms of PC, the show thrived off it's million plus crossovers before the show became this telenovela-ized, muddled mess of a show. Alan made very frequent appearances on the show and other characters stopped in to make cameo appearances in either weeklong or thirteen week story arcs(Sonny, Alexis, Dara).

And the entire point of a spinoff is for the show to have it's own identity, which PC did some of the time. It was the hospital show to GH's adventure/mob/crime show. There were occasional story mentions on GH about things on PC(i.e. Nurses' Strike, Christina's kidnapping, Lucy begging the Q's for their support in her bid for the hospital board seat). And there were some things that happened during Latham's run that pissed me off(blond guy hung from the Rafters on GH....WATCH PC to see who it is..., when we all knew damn good and well it wasn't gonna be Jax or Jason!), but I assume that came from either Wendy Riche or the network to drum up interest in the spinoff show.

If PC and GH would have had stories where you had to watch one show to watch the other, then what would be point of PC? Why not just extend GH to an hour and a half?

I think the reason why they did the hospital stuff on PC was so that they could do serious, ER-like hospital drama on one show while being free to do more action/adventure stuff on the other show. I never found a problem with that, because GH was clearly headed into a less-hospital like direction post-Labine. But once Latham got in, obviously she decided the best thing to do would be to make it more soapy with crap like racecar bed screwing and fictional drugs like DL-56.

[CSF]

Santa Barbara did have to struggle airing against GH and GL in the 3pm time period. Later on in it's run, many affiliates aired it at 9am.

I don't think "Rags" would have "strayed from tradition." If it was a soap with a one word title, as long as it was given a chance to be successful, it would be fine. B&B has been a rating's success. IMO, a title like "The Bold and the Beautiful" is just a rip off of "The Young and the Restless." Just like the Dynasty spinoff was titled "Dynasty II: The Colby's." Like come on now, how unoriginal. And not to mention, how unsuccessful.

When Knots Landing was created, it wasn't called "Little Dallas" or "Out of Dallas" to let people know it would be a spinoff of the highly popular Dallas. I think something like "Rags" would have had a very unique identity. Clearly millions would have tuned in just like they tuned in for B&B because CBS was smart in their scheduling block. Rags would give it more of it's own independent identity because it wouldn't need to stand on a "The and The" title. In that sense, it just seems like another version of the highly popular, The Young and the Restless.

And as for telling you what its about, well if you are a soap viewer and you watch CBS, you would be inclined to check it out. IMO, I would naturally assume it would be about newspaper's as that was a term given to the papers. But I would still have to check it out to be sure and what's the harm in doing so? Finally, I think if it stuck with such title, I think it would be focused more toward fashion today and could have been more progressive. The BOLD and the Beautiful has never really had a BOLD storyline to begin with.

I understand what you are saying here, but the action/adventure days of GH ended in 1988. When the show relinquished it's number 1 spot to Y&R, that was a sign that the world around them was changing and that is not what the soap viewer wanted to see anymore. The 80's were over and it was time to move on. The Monty effect was over. It didn't work the second time around.

That's why I think GH should have kept up with the Riche/Labine critically acclaimed drama and moved the mob/action/adventure stuff to Port Charles. It was called General Hospital for a reason. If they wanna take it all out to the docks and battle it out with glocks and assault riffles, bring it over to a soap called Port Charles. Then when they go to the emergency room, have the storyline continue on GH which those doctor's treating the patients, but keep it there, don't let the mob take over that soap. Just have the basic crossovers in the hospital.

IMO, I think the reason General Hospital lost it's number 1 spot was because it's audience realized it was time to grow up and that life wasn't all about action and adventure and it was time to tune into something more realistic. AMC was incredible during the early to mid-90s and they did not feature any of the things GH thrived on in the 80s. GH became critically acclaimed in the 90s, again no Monty based story's there. Today, it's all mob and look at how fast it bleeds viewers.

Port Charles' identity should have been about the things going on in Port Charles. The hospital should have remained with GH. It could be featured in the Port Charles spinoff, but not be the main concept. If you want mob, play it out over there.

[bellcurve]

That was my point. It was popular and critically acclaimed, but never a ratings juggernaut.

Well, it obviously worked for B&B, so that show clearly wasn't unsuccessful.

All you have to do is look at the way history has repeated itself with titles of shows that are named after the setting and one word titles. It kind of speaks for itself. And no one has been able to buck the trend.

That's kind of debatable, but whatever. I forgive you since you clearly hold disdain for the show.

This is all just a matter of wishful thinking and opinion.

Obviously, since Wendy Riche was so hated by certain writers and cast/crew members(Tony Geary this means you), maybe they promised her her own spinoff show(and keeping GH in the process) if they moved the medical drama to the sister show. And once Lynn Marie Lethal got her hands into the show(either forced upon by ABC or maybe Riche herself, looking to perk up the numbers for the show), maybe Riche just finally gave up? I was under the impression from articles I read in 2000 that the cast/crew were happy when they got Julie Hanan Carruthers as their Executive Producer, because it seemed like Riche devoted more of her time and energy into GH.

And there's no way Claire Labine would have stayed with Riche. Homegirl was enjoying her second wind and was really desperate to get her Ryan's Hope 2.0 on the air. And had been desperate even before she left, whoring her Union Place/Heart and Soul Bible around to everyone but a Sunday School class.

[CSF]

And I still think because of where it was scheduled, it never had the chance.

I didn't say B&B was unsuccessful, due to airing right after it's big sister, it's always done well.

But again, CBS as a whole has always been more successful at scheduling their soaps. Capitol was not unsuccessful. It preformed fairly well throughout it run. Not to mention it had practically the same numbers B&B had during it's first 5 years.

I don't hold destain for B&B. Only B&B post 2003.

I'll never understand why many didn't like Riche. I always found her to be a remarkably wonderful producer. Other than Guza and Geary, who else didn't like Riche?

[UKBoi]

I totally agree. And having a GH with the Webbers, Scorpio-Drakes and the Quartermaines could have been great, and then a Port Charles with Sonny, Carly, Jason, Sam and then Spin, Maxie, Kate, Olivia, Jax etc would have been great also.