All that crap with Meg got old fast. Even in the 1997 Back To The Cul-de-sac reunion they dredged that up again as the Mac/Karen story. Lee & Dobson chewed scenery as usual.

It felt good to have some actual male energy on the show and the thing was that I much prefer how men and women were written when interacting with one another in the 80s than whatever is considered modern day male and female interactions.

I liked that the show portrayed all the women with moments of strength and moments of struggle. I also loved that the show wrote the men as masculine and not in a toxic way that Dynasty did. This was a show about marriages in an upper middle class California town so it made sense to have equally strong male and female characters interacting with one another.

Unpopular opinion, but I loved the times when Karen and Paige would interact because you saw an unease from Karen over how to relate to Paige and you saw someone that didn't consider Karen to be the second coming of Christ like the other characters did. It was a dynamic that wasn't explored, but you didn't need to explore it because both actresses provided subtext in their scenes with one another (plus, Karen learned her lesson from how she treated Annie in the pilot also).

Also, the show not knowing how to write Laura seemed odd especially since she had her ex-husband Richard out and about that could have been bought back as conflict for Laura/Sumner in season 9 instead of killing Laura off... but when you have writers without much imagination, it wouldn't have occurred to them.

9 hours ago, Khan said:

Frankly, I felt the same way about Greg Sumner's biography that I did about "Capricorn Crude": why is Val writing that book, lol?

I had no qualms with Valene finding herself as a writer. IMO, however, she was better suited writing children's and young adult books than family sagas and tell-all biographies.

Plus, what could Val possibly have uncovered in researching and writing about Greg that we didn't know already? Unless she were to discover that Greg once killed a man or had a child even he didn't know about, I don't see where that particular story could've gone.

Ironically, I think one reason why Mack/Kevin Dobson was added to the show was to make Karen appear less shrill. Whether or not that turned to be the case, however, is a matter of opinion, lol.

Douglas Sheehan was another actor whose more natural approach helped separate KNOTS from the other primetime soaps - a modern day Henry Fonda or James Stewart, if you will, a type which you never saw on most other soaps, daytime OR primetime. That's why I hated Ben's exit storyline: not only was it far-fetched, but it also did not play to Sheehan's strengths.

Granted, this is just my observation as a viewer, but I sense his boredom was more a struggle with the producers over who Greg Sumner was and what he was supposed to bring to the show. Clearly, the producers wanted Greg to be their answer to J.R. Ewing or Richard Channing, but Devane likely fought that because he saw more dimensions to Greg than they did. His monologue with the late Paul Galveston's portrait, in particular, feels like the show setting him up to be the major antagonist - bigger than even Abby - but in the end, it comes across as a promise that's never quite fulfilled.

I tend to agree about Val. The book made sense for her exit story, I guess, but also reminds you of how irrelevant Valene's own journey had become. I liked the little story early that season where she taught a waitress to read (?) because that at least felt like a story for her.

The main time you could tell Devane was bored was when he'd just do a lot of scenes behind sunglasses. The material could become dreary at times, but if he did fight against Greg being a villain, I'm glad. This wasn't Falcon Crest, Dallas or Dynasty. The attempts in the later seasons of the show to try to pit him against the "good" people, like the custody battle for Meg, did not work for me, partly because they tried to pin it on Abby, partly because I never wanted Karen and Mack to have custody of Meg anyway. That whole story never stopped annoying me - they had run out of story for Karen and Mack, and they didn't want to saddle Greg with a baby. They should have just had Laura send Meg away somewhere if they were that reluctant to try something new with Greg.

I think initially Mack helped balance Karen, but he became such a sour, sanctimonious character, and beyond the various "Mack sort of cheats" stories, there was little left for them as a couple.

They should have brought her brother back, as they had a good dynamic in his brief run. If Stephen Macht didn't want to return, then recast him.

You're right about Sheehan, and why the last stories for him were so wrong in so many ways. Val was never the same after that pairing ended.

10 hours ago, DRW50 said:

The attempts in the later seasons of the show to try to pit him against the "good" people, like the custody battle for Meg, did not work for me, partly because they tried to pin it on Abby, partly because I never wanted Karen and Mack to have custody of Meg anyway. That whole story never stopped annoying me - they had run out of story for Karen and Mack, and they didn't want to saddle Greg with a baby. They should have just had Laura send Meg away somewhere if they were that reluctant to try something new with Greg.

I agree. Of course, Greg didn't really take much of a role in raising Mary Frances, so I could understand why he shouldn't have raised Meg; but if KL had been more like "Family" or "Eight is Enough," then I would've been interested to see how Mack and Karen, who were "of a certain age" and had grown children of their own, cope with raising another at a time in their lives when they probably assumed they were done with raising children. KL wasn't like "Family" or "Eight is Enough," though, and hadn't been like "Family" or "Eight is Enough" in at least a decade; so the entire scenario of Mack and Karen raising Greg and Laura's baby (with the needless wrinkle of keeping Meg from ever finding out the truth) becomes a big ball of "So what?" for me in the end. (Just as I never understood why Abby, Ben or Val always panicked at the thought of Gary knowing the twins were his, and why Gary took so damn long to figure it out. I mean, what's the big damn deal here, folks?)

Edited December 7Dec 7 by Khan

11 hours ago, DRW50 said:

The book made sense for her exit story, I guess, but also reminds you of how irrelevant Valene's own journey had become.

In a way, reuniting her with her twins became a sort of dead-end for Val.  Aside from shrieking "I HAVE GOT TO THINK OF MY CHILDREN!!" every fifteen minutes and wringing her hands over Gary possibly finding out he was their father - not to mention, having to dodge various psychos who were after her or Ben or those damn brats at any given time - Val had absolutely nothing left to do.  Her writing career, like her pursuing a college degree, fell completely by the wayside, probably because Val as a writer never made sense to the producers (or to anyone else) and never yielded anything in the way of storylines.

If you think about it, what did we REALLY know about Val, aside from her tragic backstory (abandoned by her mother and, we presume, father; married and a mother at a very early age; forced out of Dallas and out of her daughter's life by J.R.)?  What interests did she have besides raising children and running everyday on the beach? I mean, Gary could've married another woman before moving to Knots Landing, and Val could've remained just another part of Ewing family history, and it wouldn't have made any difference.

Edited December 7Dec 7 by Khan

Just now, Khan said:

In a way, reuniting her with her twins became a sort of dead-end for Val.  Aside from shrieking "I HAVE GOT TO THINK OF MY CHILDREN!!" every fifteen minutes and wringing her hands over Gary possibly finding out he was their father - not to mention, having to dodge various psychos who were after her or Ben or those damn brats at any given time - Val had absolutely nothing left to do.  Her writing career, like her pursuing a college degree, fell completely by the wayside, probably because Val as a writer never made sense to the producers (or anyone else) and never yielded anything in the way of storylines.

If you think about it, what did we REALLY know about Val, aside from her tragic backstory (abandoned by her mother and, we presume, father; married and a mother at a very early age; forced out of Dallas and out of her daughter's life by J.R.)?  Was she ever fully developed as a character?  Gary could've married another woman before moving to Knots Landing, and Val could've remained just another part of Ewing family history, and it wouldn't have made any difference to how KL as a series evolved.

You're right. She became ossified very early on.

I still think we could have seen her father, or something completely random for her. I know this sounds dumb but given how horrible her late '80s/early '90s stories became anyway, I might say she could have had a story where she became a standup comic and used her insane life in comedy for therapeutic reasons.

On 12/5/2025 at 3:56 PM, titan1978 said:

William Devane can also be mannered and like a lot of men in daytime, when he’s bored it’s written all over his face.

On 12/5/2025 at 7:19 PM, Khan said:

I sense his boredom was more a struggle with the producers over who Greg Sumner was and what he was supposed to bring to the show.

11 hours ago, DRW50 said:

The main time you could tell Devane was bored was when he'd just do a lot of scenes behind sunglasses.

I can believe that if there had been a season 15, William Devane would not have returned.

9 minutes ago, kalbir said:

I can believe that if there had been a season 15, William Devane would not have returned.

I don't think he would have either, as I imagine there would have been a large pay cut. I doubt Nicolette would have so they could have just left together.

3 minutes ago, kalbir said:

I can believe that if there had been a season 15, William Devane would not have returned.

Which would have been for the best, IMO. If KL had had another season, it would've needed to evolve once more in order to keep up with the changing primetime landscape. In an era where MELROSE PLACE and its' imitators were becoming the "new hotness," as you would say, and with shows like "E.R." and "NYPD Blue" just around the corner, Greg Sumner would've looked like a relic from another, long-forgotten era.

13 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I know this sounds dumb but given how horrible her late '80s/early '90s stories became anyway, I might say she could have had a story where she became a standup comic and used her insane life in comedy for therapeutic reasons.

It's not dumb - hell, who wouldn't turn to stand-up after living the kind of life Val led? - but the question is, could the very mannered and not-at-all-funny Joan Van Ark have played "Valene Ewing, Standup Comic" without looking like a contestant on "America's Got (No) Talent"?

I, for one, would have LOVED to have seen Val reunite with her father (who, in my mind, is played by Ben Johnson), perhaps as a spoiler in Al and Lilimae's brief romance.

15 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I doubt Nicolette would have so they could have just left together.

I think the producers would've moved heaven and earth to convince her to stay, since she was exactly the sort of young, sultry type who would've kept the younger audiences from tuning out. And I think Michele Lee and Kevin Dobson would've stayed, if only to provide continuity. But the rest of the cast, including Ted Shackelford, probably would've been phased out; and younger characters, played by cheaper actors, would've moved into Seaview Circle as part of CBS and Lorimar's plan to overhaul KL for the '90's.

1 minute ago, Khan said:

I think the producers would've moved heaven and earth to convince her to stay, since she was exactly the sort of young, sultry type who would've kept the younger audiences from tuning out. And I think Michele Lee and Kevin Dobson would've stayed, if only to provide continuity. But the rest of the cast, including Ted Shackelford, probably would've been phased out; and younger characters, played by cheaper actors, would've moved into Seaview Circle as part of CBS and Lorimar's plan to overhaul KL for the '90's.

I would have been tempted to dump Mack and try to rework a new era for Gary and Val but it probably would have been too much. If only the show had had a stronger cast beyond the originals in those last years (I love Kathleen Noone, but can you imagine a show led by Claudia).

I tend to think Nicolette would have left for new things but considering her work post-Knots ended up being softcore HBO movies, maybe not.

7 minutes ago, Khan said:

It's not dumb - hell, who wouldn't turn to stand-up after living the kind of life Val led? - but the question is, could the very mannered and not-at-all-funny Joan Van Ark have played "Valene Ewing, Standup Comic" without looking like a contestant on "America's Got (No) Talent"?

I, for one, would have LOVED to have seen Val reunite with her father (who, in my mind, is played by Ben Johnson), perhaps as a spoiler in Al and Lilimae's brief romance.

I might have had Joan play it as bad, but somehow the public appreciates her anyway, because of her sincerity. She would not keep the gig long-term but might start to finally move on from her old life and demons (and moving away with Gary and the twins when JVA chose to leave in season 13).

Ben Johnson would have been a great choice. Maybe do the old terminal illness reunion storyline.

15 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Ben Johnson would have been a great choice. Maybe do the old terminal illness reunion storyline.

That's precisely where my brain headed, lol. You have Val's father pop up at a very inopportune time; you have Val and Lilimae suspect there might be something wrong with the old coot; you have him finally admit he's dying; and you have Lilimae torn between staying with her estranged husband until the end or accompanying Al to Florida or wherever the hell they ran off to, lol.

26 minutes ago, Khan said:

Which would have been for the best, IMO. If KL had had another season, it would've needed to evolve once more in order to keep up with the changing primetime landscape. In an era where MELROSE PLACE and its' imitators were becoming the "new hotness," as you would say, and with shows like "E.R." and "NYPD Blue" just around the corner, Greg Sumner would've looked like a relic from another, long-forgotten era.

TBH, it felt like season 13 really torpedo'd the shows chances of doing that with the short-term thinking of killing off Steve and particularly Linda. The killing off Steve also meant that Claudia had kind of crossed a line it never felt she recovered from. Linda of course felt really like a modern character for the 90s and would've fit right into the Melrose Place era.

17 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

(I love Kathleen Noone, but can you imagine a show led by Claudia).

Oh God, no, lol.

One thing I did like about the series finale that I would keep in the mythical S15 is Anne, Claudia and Nick all heading off to Monaco. But I might have Anne return right away - and once again, she's broke, thanks to Nick taking her AND Claudia's money and heading off for parts unknown.

This time, however, Anne reinvents herself as a businesswoman - a madam, to be precise. ;)

Edited December 7Dec 7 by Khan

2 minutes ago, te. said:

TBH, it felt like season 13 really torpedo'd the shows chances of doing that with the short-term thinking of killing off Steve and particularly Linda.

I agree.  Granted, I thought Steve was horribly conceived and cast, but there isn't anything that says they couldn't have recast him and then worked on developing him more.