6 hours ago, janea4old said:

It felt like a great nod to Bobbie and Ruby's history, written from a modern-day perspective, yet redeemed with Bobbie's work to help other women escape the life. Wonderful.

That was a truly special memorial, like the ones we used to get in the 90’s. The BJ Angel with the original actress was a wonderful touch. I though Monica’s memorial was awful compared to that one, except for maybe a couple of scenes with Jason and Tracy.

10 hours ago, Jdee43 said:

There is such a big gap between Ruby described on paper and Ruby seen on screen. If you read things like Ruby was a former madam who scheduled dates for her niece, you'd think she was much more sinister and evil than she really was on screen.

Ruby is an example of an actor turning a potentially evil character into a character with a heart of gold with her performance, you forget they had any evil in them.

I don’t want to take anything away from Norma because she was a grounded actor that did solid work for her entire run. But it wasn’t just the actor. Back then the hooker with the heart of gold was a common storytelling trope, as was the wrong side of the tracks stories. Soaps did them often. Off the top of my head there were several on AMC, DAYS, OLTL, etc.

They just didn’t write about the true ramifications of the life like they would now, especially with Bobbie, Luke, and Ruby. It would sometimes bubble up, but they played it like it was hard, it was awful, but Ruby had saved them. That’s hard to take at face value now, and the greater audience is also unwilling to allow for nuance. It’s black and white now and that’s not how it was played for decades.

RIP Rif Hutton, who was on GH in two different roles.

Rif Hutton Dead: 'Doogie Howser, M.D.', 'General Hospital' Actor Was 73

Edited Monday at 08:56 PM1 day by DRW50

Talking about Lucky/Jonathan Jackson in the main thread brought up the dark and miserable material Guza and JFP wrote for him and I got me to thinking about that time on the show. What the hell was going on? I know Frons was a problem, Jill likes depressing, and Guza loves it. But for all my problems with JFP and Guza, these people have talent and worked in soaps a long time. Why no course correction? Arrogance? The idea that the whole genre was circling the drain? Thinking they were elevating the genre?

Their show was miserable towards the end. Even the Brenda return was just not fun like it was in 2002. What person thought the way Lucky spoke to Liz after the affair and burning down Laura’s house was a good idea? Then his Irish adventure which was also misery. Luke killing Danny and Tony hated the alcoholic angle so it was all a bunch of nothing?

It’s like they thought Franco and getting Vanessa back was all they needed, not to look at the show and make some course corrections. Jill certainly had more fun, out of character as it could be, on OLTL and Guiding Light. I just don’t get what the mindset was there.

6 minutes ago, titan1978 said:

But for all my problems with JFP and Guza, these people have talent and worked in soaps a long time. Why no course correction? Arrogance? The idea that the whole genre was circling the drain? Thinking they were elevating the genre?

It’s like they thought Franco and getting Vanessa back was all they needed, not to look at the show and make some course corrections.

All of the above IMO.

I think they also thought they could get JJ and the audience to just go along with the Siobhan thing instead. It didn't work. Same with how VM vehemently rejected Guza's big plans for Dante/Brenda, and unlike Jonathan she wielded her power there (and may have had more leverage).

Edited 8 hours ago8 hr by Vee

9 minutes ago, Vee said:

Same with how VM vehemently rejected Guza's big plans for Dante/Brenda, and unlike Jonathan she wielded her power there (and may have had more leverage).

There was no way she would have ever agreed to Dante/Brenda. Again, I don’t know what he was thinking except putting his two favorites together. And the ultimate power she wielded was the will she won’t she stay? And the answer was a year and done.

I mean, in tptb’s defense, I think Maurice and Tony Geary only stayed because they thought the show was a goner and they only had a couple of years left even by that Brenda returns run. I know the fan thinking was 2012 or the show ending at 50 the following year. That was before FV and RC got the show back up of course.

1 minute ago, titan1978 said:

There was no way she would have ever agreed to Dante/Brenda. Again, I don’t know what he was thinking except putting his two favorites together.

That's always what he was thinking. It was the same with Jason and Brenda IMO. Plus I think Guza really did intend for Dominic to inherit the show. No male has had that level of layered material or deep focus since, sadly.

Again, I think VM could've stayed if the situation BTS was different. Just as in '02, she wasn't given the incentive. Though in 2011 it may have been about the story issues, or knowing Guza was leaving and the show was on the slide. Who knows.

Edited 8 hours ago8 hr by Vee

1 hour ago, titan1978 said:

Talking about Lucky/Jonathan Jackson in the main thread brought up the dark and miserable material Guza and JFP wrote for him and I got me to thinking about that time on the show. What the hell was going on? I know Frons was a problem, Jill likes depressing, and Guza loves it. But for all my problems with JFP and Guza, these people have talent and worked in soaps a long time. Why no course correction? Arrogance? The idea that the whole genre was circling the drain? Thinking they were elevating the genre?

Their show was miserable towards the end. Even the Brenda return was just not fun like it was in 2002. What person thought the way Lucky spoke to Liz after the affair and burning down Laura’s house was a good idea? Then his Irish adventure which was also misery. Luke killing Danny and Tony hated the alcoholic angle so it was all a bunch of nothing?

It’s like they thought Franco and getting Vanessa back was all they needed, not to look at the show and make some course corrections. Jill certainly had more fun, out of character as it could be, on OLTL and Guiding Light. I just don’t get what the mindset was there.

I think they both resented still being in daytime at that point (or if JFP's case, not having real power the way she had at her other soaps - although like Guza she also seemed to dislike the basics of soaps), and both seemed to have a heavy disdain for women. Then you have Guza's teamup with Tony Geary, who had so many toxic ideas.

When the whole Liz rape story first aired, I felt like too much focused on Lucky, and then Luke. There were some very moving moments with Liz, Bobbie and Audrey to balance that out. I would give most of the credit for the balance to Wendy Riche, as when that story was revived with JJ's return and Lucky's nostalgia for Liz bleeding in the snow post-rape, I sensed zero female point of view, although given how close MVJ is to Guza, I am aware she would not agree.

MVJ has been pretty pointed in recent public comments that she did not love a lot of her last ten years at GH ('02-'12, the Frons regime) so I imagine she'd have comments on that.

I agree with what everyone else had said about JJ and VM. I also don't think VM or JJ loved the pace of daytime at that moment either. It had changed a lot and I know VM said it was more fast paced than she thought. She specifically spent years on Las Vegas as a supporting character because it was easier (and more money).

There obviously was a ton of chaos happening if both VM and JJ had issues in that era with writing. Both were basically slam dunk ratings winners and it didn't pan out. Sonny and Brenda did get some steam and ratings, but will anyone ever recall Lucky/Siobhan?

If they hadn't been so fixated on the Balkan saga or Franco follies or the Dante angle for Brenda, if they'd just let Brenda naturally lead story, I think it would've worked out much better. But Guza and co. were so set in their ways about their era and the mob at that point that they couldn't see beyond it, even though Guza was clearly thrilled to have VM back. They tried to make Brenda work around those latter-day storylines, or the existence of characters like Sam, etc. But to me she just made a lot of it look small. And I say that as someone who was distinctly not a Brenda fan for a long time lol. I think Frank knows that would be the case today and it's a part of why he doesn't want her back, in addition to any personality conflict.

I thought both actors fit back into the show like a glove in 2009-2011. With the exception of the Sonny/Brenda payoff, a fair amount of which I thought was done well, as well as the Lucky/Dante relationship, it was the show that failed them. It was a failure of imagination beyond Guza II's narrow vision of the show. The same could be said for JJ last year, except unlike Guza (who showcased Lucky in very dark stories) I don't think FV was remotely interested in trying.

Edited 25 minutes ago25 min by Vee