@DRW50 , thank you so much for tagging me, and sharing this classic episode! WOW!!!

Annette

19 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

I remember seeing that episode online, but I guess the show figured that she was either too 'old' or too 'smart' to fall for his charms.

I think another thing that helped humanize Jackie was her friendship/mentorship of Evie Stapleton. If a sweet individual like Evie could see the good in Jackie.. than so could the audience.

A character like Evie doesn't really exist on soaps nowadays. She was sweet and saw the best in everyone, but she also had a quiet strength and spirit that made her a unique presence in the Dobson/Marland era. It's a shame that she was phased out at the start of the Long/Ryder era especially since she'd been the only positive motherly influence in Phillip's life.

As you've said, Long really set the template for Phillip's character and direction in life when he found out who his real parents were. I think the fact that he found out after Jackie was died added to the Greek tragic element that was his character and direction.

His overly controlling and domineering personality when it came to his marriages and children made perfect sense because he had no control in his formative years and once he found out the truth about himself.. he was determined never to lose that control ever again.

And I agree that maybe Marland was less invested in the Phillip story because there was nothing he could add to the story so he pushed the reveal down the road while he figured that he could do something about the Amanda story because the mom hadn't been introduced (other than the woman in the veil) by the Dobson's before he took over.

And in regards to the Holly situation, his first order had to be to end the Roger story in his first few months and than sidelined Holly until he could figure out where to go with her... and I think had MG had another year left on her contract.. he probably would have had an idea of where Holly would have gone in 1981.

Count me in as another fan of Evie/Janet Grey.

Evie certainly lent temperance to big sister Rita. I remember several instances where she gave Rita the "what for", some of which can be seen online. Theirs was a fantastic sisterly bond, very believable.

I don't recall any scenes with Evie defending Rita against Barbara Norris. Loved those Barbara/Rita scenes. Berjer was wonderful.

15 minutes ago, GL Oldtimer said:

@DRW50 , thank you so much for tagging me, and sharing this classic episode! WOW!!!

Annette

Isn't it great?! I watched it as well...the clarity is remarkable.

I just saw another Hope name drop in 1992-AM when talking to Eleni about his insecurities about always being #2 mentions being second to the NY social scene with his mom.

I know SS isn’t around much longer at this point but I like Nick best at this point when Blake is calling him out. They have an interesting chemistry-and really Blake needed to sleep with Nick to complete her run through the Spaulding men.

What appears to be a mid-1990s version of Springfield's family trees can be found here:

The Guiding Light FAQ, Part 3

It's pretty decent. AlwaysAMC and GL95 take note.

Was Paul Kincaid ever on screen? I started watching GL in Spring 1979 (I think), and I don't remember a Paul Kincaid (Bauer). Was Simone or another Kincaid family member ever on screen?

5 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

What appears to be a mid-1990s version of Springfield's family trees can be found here:

The Guiding Light FAQ, Part 3

It's pretty decent. AlwaysAMC and GL95 take note.

Was Paul Kincaid ever on screen? I started watching GL in Spring 1979 (I think), and I don't remember a Paul Kincaid (Bauer). Was Simone or another Kincaid family member ever on screen?

Thanks! I definitely need the lesson.

For some reason “Mindy’s mom” as a spouse of Billy’s made me chuckle.

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by GL95

9 minutes ago, GL95 said:

I just saw another Hope name drop in 1992-AM when talking to Eleni about his insecurities about always being #2 mentions being second to the NY social scene with his mom.

I know SS isn’t around much longer at this point but I like Nick best at this point when Blake is calling him out. They have an interesting chemistry-and really Blake needed to sleep with Nick to complete her run through the Spaulding men.

YESS!! I thought I was the only one who say that unusual Blake/Nick chemistry. Not sure I would have had Blake sleep with Nick (overkill), but I would definitely have Blake sabotage Nick out of long-term loyalty for A-M. I liked the ongoing loyalty between Blake and A-M long after Blake hooks up with Ross. Especially Blake's loyalty toward A-M. Interesting stuff.

4 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

YESS!! I thought I was the only one who say that unusual Blake/Nick chemistry. Not sure I would have had Blake sleep with Nick (overkill), but I would definitely have Blake sabotage Nick out of long-term loyalty for A-M. I liked the ongoing loyalty between Blake and A-M long after Blake hooks up with Ross. Especially Blake's loyalty toward A-M. Interesting stuff.

I was mostly joking about a Blake/Nick hookup but I do enjoy their scenes together. What’s funny knowing mostly what happens in the future with Nick is that AM basically accurately predicts everything that happens with Alex/Nick and the company outside of Nick ultimately bailing after getting the presidency.

Yeah, I like AM/Blake’s dynamic at this point. They keep trying to manipulate the other but can’t really get one over on the other, but also ultimately get each other’s motivations. I don’t know if it’s because of Blake, but I like AM/Roger scenes and it’s interesting how Roger understands AM so much more than Alex does.

I’m guessing it’s both Bloss taking off and Bev suddenly leaving, but I really do wish they’d tried out for a period AM jumping to Roger’s company like they’re strongly hinting at. (It could’ve been interesting even if you kept Bloss because it would’ve been insta-conflict for Ross if AM is part of the family business.) I also think AM/Holly have an interesting dynamic/ chemistry. Rick has such a different energy from Marj/RR and once Bev leaves I feel like AM actually fits in better with the Thorpe side of things.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by GL95

35 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

What appears to be a mid-1990s version of Springfield's family trees can be found here:

The Guiding Light FAQ, Part 3

It's pretty decent. AlwaysAMC and GL95 take note.

Was Paul Kincaid ever on screen? I started watching GL in Spring 1979 (I think), and I don't remember a Paul Kincaid (Bauer). Was Simone or another Kincaid family member ever on screen?

Simone Kinkaid appeared on-screen in 1977/78, and was played by Laryssa Lauret, best known for her role as Karen Werner on The Doctors.

Paul Kinkaid was spoken about but (IIRC) was never actually seen. He was the son of Victor and Simone Kinkaid, although viewers have speculated for five decades that he (like his sister Hillary Bauer) might actually have been Bill Bauer's offspring as well.

25 minutes ago, GL95 said:

I was mostly joking about a Blake/Nick hookup but I do enjoy their scenes together. What’s funny knowing mostly what happens in the future with Nick is that AM basically accurately predicts everything that happens with Alex/Nick and the company outside of Nick ultimately bailing after getting the presidency.

Yeah, I like AM/Blake’s dynamic at this point. They keep trying to manipulate the other but can’t really get one over on the other, but also ultimately get each other’s motivations. I don’t know if it’s because of Blake, but I like AM/Roger scenes and it’s interesting how Roger understands AM so much more than Alex does.

I’m guessing it’s both Bloss taking off and Bev suddenly leaving, but I really do wish they’d tried out for a period AM jumping to Roger’s company like they’re strongly hinting at. (It could’ve been interesting even if you kept Bloss because it would’ve been insta-conflict for Ross if AM is part of the family business.) I also think AM/Holly have an interesting dynamic/ chemistry. Rick has such a different energy from Marj/RR and once Bev leaves I feel like AM actually fits in better with the Thorpe side of things.

Having AM shift business loyalties from Spaulding to Thorpe is a fascinating proposal. Yeah, I agree that Roger understood AM better than Alex ever did.

Maybe I'll swipe your idea and add it to my thought of Amanda marrying Ed, with AM shifting familial bonding attempts from Spaulding to Bauer. Amanda and AM were stated to be fairly tight...and add Matthew to it and you have something that Phillip, Alex and Alan never had.

Add to THAT your idea of AM in business with Roger, and you have one hell of a mess. Perfect!

The only thing lacking is AM progeny. Maybe AM and Gilly have some offspring. I don't think you've run across the AM/Gilly chemistry yet, which is off the charts. That's a late 1993/early 1994 thing. Lucy who??

You know, shifting AM toward Roger creates a fascinating, unconventional quadrangle: AM/Ed/Blake/Roger. Add Michelle and Holly to that for added kicks.

1 hour ago, GL95 said:

Thanks! I definitely need the lesson.

For some reason “Mindy’s mom” as a spouse of Billy’s made me chuckle.

Well, before the internet, it was harder to fill in those gaps. I've only heard Mindy's mother's name referenced once. Ironically, it's "Deena/Dina". He mentions it to Amanda when he first comes to town.

Vanessa's mother's name was Louise. I don't recall ever hearing it referenced before they retconned Vanessa's past with Ross and gave her a child. IIRC, Vanessa never talked about her mother. (That's why it's so weird to me that when I caught Maeve on Another World, she's calling Emma Snyder "mom".)

Re: a Hope recast, the age difference between an actress and Carl or Rick would've been immaterial. I watched Anne Sward parent actors who weren't even a decade younger than her for years. Viewers suspended their belief (I know it's got some name, but I can't think of it.) and accepted "mature" actresses having babies all the time. What matters more is their acting. And I vote for Kim Johnston Ulrich. Loved her as Diana on ATWT.

Edited 34 minutes ago34 min by P.J.

3 hours ago, zanereed said:

I have heard that the Dobsons never planned to actually marry Hope and Alan. Marrying them was all Marland. I'm not sure what the end goal was for Hope and Alan in the Dobsons' plans - does anyone venture a guess?

I have only theories, but boy, do I have theories.

Although I thought Marland married them off WAY too quickly, I did think the Dobsons would eventually have them marry, and Hope would repent of it soon after. I've felt for a long time that the way Ryder and Long broke up Alan and Hope was kind of close to what the Dobsons would have eventually done--Alan gaslighting and tormenting Hope and driving her over the edge. They were kind of into writing Gothic stories. When you see those final two months the Dobsons wrote the show (many of these episodes are available online), where everyone was warning Hope, and she refused to listen to them, it just seemed like they were setting her up for a fall. Kind of like the heroine in the old Gothic romance Dragonwyck.

Another reason I'm fairly sure that was the basic direction for Alan and Hope is the Barbara/James story they wrote when they moved to ATWT. There were a quite a few parallels with Alan and Hope--they fell in love on a island, Barbara didn't know much about the "real" him, and after he persuaded her to marry him his controlling personality came out. He treated Barbara in a similar way that Alan treated Elizabeth (he tried with Jackie but she basically told him to f@ck off, LOL). I don't think Alan would have become the kind of crazy villain James did (was that even the Dobsons, or later writers?) but I'm guessing the island romance would have turned into a nightmare for Hope, eventually leading to her becoming a stronger, less passive character. Which is what happened to Barbara.

Maybe rather than how it ended up with Barbara, Hope's fortunes would have ended more like Margo's, who also fell in love with James and was disillusioned by him. I don't think Hope would have become a cop, BUT MAYBE she would have found proof of Alan being blackmailed by Roger and his part in faking his death. I could see Alan realizing this, fast-talking his way out of it and persuading her to marry him so she couldn't testify against him, or something like that. Speaking of a possible pairing with Ross, that could have been one way to achieve it. She could have gone to him for advice rather than her father.

We also have to keep in mind the Rita factor--the Dobsons had been setting up an eventual affair between Rita and Alan even before Hope and Alan became a thing. I suspect Lenore's pregnancy delayed that. (It seems painfully obvious that Greg Fairbanks, the doctor she slept with and who was the possible babydaddy was brought in solely for that purpose because they had a much bigger storyline cooking for Alan/Hope/Ed/Rita/maybe Holly). Marland picked up on it but then Lenore's departure truncated the story again. Marland set things up for an eventual Rita return, which didn't happen because he left.

I admit I'm saying all this from over 45 years hindsight--I was a big Alan and Hope fan back then. I didn't like Marland marrying them off so fast--I wanted them to be like star-crossed lovers, having to overcome many obstacles. (Give me a break, I was still almost a kid). But now I realize it would have been a big mistake--just like what Marland did was, too, going the "redemptive love" route and turning Alan into a big yawn who was no longer driving story. I'm glad to know that wasn't in the Dobsons' plans for the characters.

3 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

You are a much better, and more creative, writer than anyone hired by this show post-Nancy Curlee.

That's so nice, thank you.

37 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

Having AM shift business loyalties from Spaulding to Thorpe is a fascinating proposal. Yeah, I agree that Roger understood AM better than Alex ever did.

Maybe I'll swipe your idea and add it to my thought of Amanda marrying Ed, with AM shifting familial bonding attempts from Spaulding to Bauer. Amanda and AM were stated to be fairly tight...and add Matthew to it and you have something that Phillip, Alex and Alan never had.

Add to THAT your idea of AM in business with Roger, and you have one hell of a mess. Perfect!

The only thing lacking is AM progeny. Maybe AM and Gilly have some offspring. I don't think you've run across the AM/Gilly chemistry yet, which is off the charts. That's a late 1993/early 1994 thing. Lucy who??

You probably need one Blake/AM slip up leading to a kid (a second twin perhaps haha) to tie Roger/AM if Blake/AM (or Blam haha) don’t reunite in this scenario so AM is at least the father of a Thorpe grandchild (which I feel like not having a Thorpe/Spaulding progeny was a wasted opportunity that was right there).

So it’s funny I have seen the Gilly/AM scenes but through Lucy/Alan Michael clips on YouTube before I discovered full eps existed, but I had zero context about who Gilly was outside of working at WSPR. (I still am not up to whatever Roger’s betrayal of Gilly was in my viewing but feel like it’s coming soon with some hints.)

One thing about Roger is for someone who plays the long game, he completely burns bridges for short term gains that cuts off potential allies. (Of course some of it is how Roger is really good at lying to himself and trying to use his truth to manipulate people-he keeps trying it with AM over making AM the patsy in the embezzlement scheme, trying to convince AM that he never had any intention of hurting AM etc.)

47 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

You know, shifting AM toward Roger creates a fascinating, unconventional quadrangle: AM/Ed/Blake/Roger. Add Michelle and Holly to that for added kicks.

If you don’t kill Maureen it also adds intrigue. Have her jump ship to Thorpe Enterprises when Vanessa goes back to Lewis Oil.