18 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

You're right about Vicky. The twins were kind of a dumb idea when you think about it. 

I am more peeved about Cory and Elizabeth than I am about Michelle and Bridget. I understand the HEA (romance-speak for Happily Ever After) symbolism for the end of the show where Victoria and Jake were presented as destined soulmates (even though we have to ignore a lot of his betrayals to get there). And in a way they were trying to do the same with Carl and Rachel but since it was during the show it was worse in my opinion because it didn't do a good job of creating story or linking characters. At least Bridget and Michelle provided an excuse for a tiny bit of Donna and Marley in Jake's life.

1 hour ago, Xanthe said:

Thinking about Lesoleil, I always wonder why they cast John Saxon in the part of a character who seemed like he was always intended to be French. 

Well, in 1979, Phillip Lyons was intended to be French. In fact, Cecile had been referring to him as Phillipe Lyonnes.  But they cast Robert Gentry, Americanized his name, and rewrote him as an American who had just been working in France.  So that kind of last minute change is not terribly unusual, unfortunately.  

11 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Yes.  And since Sam was a fairly successful artist, that could have kept him in Rachel's orbit too, professionally (not romantically of course).  So Sam had a lot of connections on the show and, with good writing, could have made for some good drama.   

Yes, good point. He also was a Dept. Head at Cory! 

6 minutes ago, Xanthe said:

I am more peeved about Cory and Elizabeth than I am about Michelle and Bridget. I understand the HEA (romance-speak for Happily Ever After) symbolism for the end of the show where Victoria and Jake were presented as destined soulmates (even though we have to ignore a lot of his betrayals to get there). And in a way they were trying to do the same with Carl and Rachel but since it was during the show it was worse in my opinion because it didn't do a good job of creating story or linking characters. At least Bridget and Michelle provided an excuse for a tiny bit of Donna and Marley in Jake's life.

It was supposedly some segment of the fans that wanted Rachel & Carl to have a child. Victoria thought it was ridiculous, at Rachel's age, etc. I agreed. I didn't know any fans who thought they should be getting pregnant & having children. 

Then, Jake & Vicky, that was a big problem for me. I thought Jake belonged with Paulina. I thought Jake & Vicky were destined to be besties, no romance! To me Ryan was perfection for Vicky. Unfortunately JFP killed that chance, literally. And, a good EP would not have done so. When Paul Michael Valley quit it was because he was angry that Jill had just fired his real life girlfriend Christine Tucci. A good EP would have realized that PMV would cool off in a day or two & want his job back which a good EP would've found a way to work that out. Not to be. 

Edited July 21, 20241 yr by Contessa Donatella
combine

11 minutes ago, Xanthe said:

I am more peeved about Cory and Elizabeth than I am about Michelle and Bridget. I understand the HEA (romance-speak for Happily Ever After) symbolism for the end of the show where Victoria and Jake were presented as destined soulmates (even though we have to ignore a lot of his betrayals to get there). And in a way they were trying to do the same with Carl and Rachel but since it was during the show it was worse in my opinion because it didn't do a good job of creating story or linking characters. At least Bridget and Michelle provided an excuse for a tiny bit of Donna and Marley in Jake's life.

It was just stupid and "soapy" to the point of hilarity, but it did give Victoria Wyndham a chance to act again after being in the doldrums (and then that Justine fiasco).

3 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

It was just stupid and "soapy" to the point of hilarity, but it did give Victoria Wyndham a chance to act again after being in the doldrums (and then that Justine fiasco).

And then ... Lumina! ACK. I talked to Jean Passanante about it. She said Leah & I wrote that. I said, yes, they did. Then she said ... It was weird. If I'd been holding anything I'd have dropped it! God, yes, it was weird! But, years later, for her to say that it was. Whoa. Makes you wonder who wanted it written! It only had one thing to commend itself, a masked ball with magnificent costumes!!! 

1 minute ago, Contessa Donatella said:

And then ... Lumina! ACK. I talked to Jean Passanante about it. She said Leah & I wrote that. I said, yes, they did. Then she said ... It was weird. If I'd been holding anything I'd have dropped it! God, yes, it was weird! But, years later, for her to say that it was. Whoa. Makes you wonder who wanted it written! It only had one thing to commend itself, a masked ball with magnificent costumes!!! 

I would guess NBC wanted to try to have yet another JER-esque story similar to what they were pushing on DAYS at the time. Lumina wasn't especially bad, but it was also not overly interesting. It could have been a B-plot on Dark Shadows.

Back to what @Xanthe mentioned, I do wonder how I would have felt about just how hard into Carl/Rachel the show went if I had been a longtime fan. It's pretty remarkable. I know Victoria Wyndham was a big factor but the show itself also seemed to totally commit in that 93-94 period.

4 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

And then ... Lumina! ACK. I talked to Jean Passanante about it. She said Leah & I wrote that. I said, yes, they did. Then she said ... It was weird. If I'd been holding anything I'd have dropped it! God, yes, it was weird! But, years later, for her to say that it was. Whoa. Makes you wonder who wanted it written! It only had one thing to commend itself, a masked ball with magnificent costumes!!! 

As I remember, the Lumina story seemed to take a big shift about half-way through.  Not sure if there was a change of head-writers, or what.  But I believe somebody completely changed the plot.

If I'm not mistaken, Lumina started off as an umbrella storyline involving a rich guy who was the head of a cult (called Lumina), coming to Bay City for an unknown reason.  But after the Lumina Ball, it it left the "umbrella" stuff behind, and took on a supernatural thing about Amanda being the reincarnated lover of some old man who never aged -- or an old man who had inhabited the body of a young man. Jeeze! It was nutty, farcical, and certainly did not go along with what it had seemed to be at the beginning.   I'd really love to know what was planned originally for that plot.   

34 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Well, in 1979, Phillip Lyons was intended to be French. In fact, Cecile had been referring to him as Phillipe Lyonnes.  But they cast Robert Gentry, Americanized his name, and rewrote him as an American who had just been working in France.  So that kind of last minute change is not terribly unusual, unfortunately.  

It does make me wonder about the sequence of events -- when they start planting the seeds for the appearance of the new character vs when the actor is cast. Edward (or Édouard?) Gérard was frequently referred to as Monsieur, and Michaud Christophe who was later revealed to be his son Albert was played by the francophone (Québécois) actor Serge Dupire. Monsieur was mentioned at least 2 months before he appeared. 

12 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

As I remember, the Lumina story seemed to take a big shift about half-way through.  Not sure if there was a change of head-writers, or what.  But I believe somebody completely changed the plot.

If I'm not mistaken, Lumina started off as an umbrella storyline involving a rich guy who was the head of a cult (called Lumina), coming to Bay City for an unknown reason.  But after the Lumina Ball, it it left the "umbrella" stuff behind, and took on a supernatural thing about Amanda being the reincarnated lover of some old man who never aged -- or an old man who had inhabited the body of a young man. Jeeze! It was nutty, farcical, and certainly did not go along with what it had seemed to be at the beginning.   I'd really love to know what was planned originally for that plot.   

Now, see, I thought that "The Secret Garden" was always part of the plan. From the beginning we had Jordan Stark who was also David Halliday (Halliday?). Stark was ancient & facially disfigured & he was wealthy, omnipotent, a businessman but with a whoo-whoo element to the Lumina corporation & he had designs on both Rachel and on Amanda. Have I got it wrong? I think that it was Laiman & Passanante through that whole thing. 

14 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

took on a supernatural thing about Amanda being the reincarnated lover of some old man who never aged -- or an old man who had inhabited the body of a young man.

The parts of the story that flashed back to the relationship of Amalie and Jordan Stark appeared to be set at least 100 years earlier -- they did not look 20th century at all. And Jordan Stark had a facial disfigurement that seemed to hint at a kind of Phantom of the Opera vibe. Then there was a kind of Secret Garden angle with the closed-up walled garden on the Cory property. 

23 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

As I remember, the Lumina story seemed to take a big shift about half-way through.  Not sure if there was a change of head-writers, or what.  But I believe somebody completely changed the plot.

If I'm not mistaken, Lumina started off as an umbrella storyline involving a rich guy who was the head of a cult (called Lumina), coming to Bay City for an unknown reason.  But after the Lumina Ball, it it left the "umbrella" stuff behind, and took on a supernatural thing about Amanda being the reincarnated lover of some old man who never aged -- or an old man who had inhabited the body of a young man. Jeeze! It was nutty, farcical, and certainly did not go along with what it had seemed to be at the beginning.   I'd really love to know what was planned originally for that plot.   

I remember that too. Wasn't there some initial hint of Felicia being involved? And then Jordan Stark was originally known as Mr. Shoes, wasn't he, and not shown?

7 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I remember that too. Wasn't there some initial hint of Felicia being involved? And then Jordan Stark was originally known as Mr. Shoes, wasn't he, and not shown?

I think the fans jokingly referred to Stark as Mr Shoes, because for the first few weeks we saw only his shoes. But I don't remember any characters calling him Mr Shoes.  

And yes, there were hints of Felicia being involved along with several other characters.  Hence the umbrella nature of the plot's early weeks. I definitely remember references to Lumina being a cult, and that it's leader had published some books related to the cult's beliefs.  The entire cult angle was dropped, I believe, in favor of the supernatural stuff.  

18 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

I think the fans jokingly referred to Stark as Mr Shoes, because for the first few weeks we saw only his shoes. But I don't remember any characters calling him Mr Shoes.  

Oh that's right. Thanks. And Joe Barbara did his voice, IIRC.

16 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

And yes, there were hints of Felicia being involved along with several other characters.  Hence the umbrella nature of the plot's early weeks. I definitely remember references to Lumina being a cult, and that it's leader had published some books related to the cult's beliefs.  The entire cult angle was dropped, I believe, in favor of the supernatural stuff.  

I had forgotten about this but before the introduction of Lumina and Jordan there was a character called Zak Wilder who insinuated himself into Lila and then Sofia's lives. Lila was about to give birth to Jasmine. Subsequently Zak was revealed to be Jordan's lackey. Jordan is apparently the author of a book that is *200* years old. He had Lila spy on the Corys.

27 minutes ago, Xanthe said:

I had forgotten about this but before the introduction of Lumina and Jordan there was a character called Zak Wilder who insinuated himself into Lila and then Sofia's lives. Lila was about to give birth to Jasmine. Subsequently Zak was revealed to be Jordan's lackey. Jordan is apparently the author of a book that is *200* years old. He had Lila spy on the Corys.

That character lasted longer than I remembered. The most memorable thing about him was his exit - wasn't he turned to ash or something? The actor went on to take over for a thankless role on OLTL after Brandon Routh had that supposedly messy exit.