EricMontreal22

I believe 2008 was when Brown/Esenten came on. I had high hopes for them because, despite their tenures at GL and PC, I really did like their work at Loving and (after a bad start) The City. But it seemed like they must have been controlled by Frons as their AMC was all about Greenlee (mostly nuGreenlee, no less), Kendall and Ryan. Their other storylines weren't bad, and the re-introduction of the Hubbards was handled well (apparently with much input from Agnes Nixon, but they did write Angie well on Loving and The City), but that really did become the focus under them.

I know this has been discussed before but Loving was so popular in South Africa that I believe they somehow made a deal to have two of its characters appear on a South African soap (in character--not as new characters). Anyone remember the details about this? I had an ex from S Africa who mentioned it initially to me, but unfortunately he passed away in a horrible accident a few years back--otherwise I'd ask him It is interesting what plays well where. Sunset Beach was a big cult hit in UK. I mentioned to a UK friend how it was funny that the UK seemed to like their American soaps (including primetime soaps like Dynasty) to be as campy and over the top as possible--less campy soaps like AMC never take there--and yet their homegrown soaps, at least on the surface, are far less campy than American soaps. Santa Barbara and Santa Barbara have a glam and camp element that I could see appealing to continental Europe--but Loving, overall, doesn't. So it is odd that it was so popular. France as well -- and as I mentioned above, South Africa. You have a point about the fact that it wasn't owned by ABC playing a part (foreign markets also seem more welcoming to 30 minute soaps). The Italian dub of Loving has all new music--which isn't unusual for dubbed tv shows (I only know this because until very very recently every dubbed anime program would have a new score--I think partly because it made it easier to make edits). But the French dub didn't... There's It's claimed here that Loving is the number one show in Italy (I know it won the Italian Emmy equivalent that year) even above Dallas... (of course by this time Dallas wasn't all that big in the US, but...)

I have a feeling that maybe Marland himself wanted his name removed...

I've followed for five or so years BBC's radio soap The Archers (which I think now has become the longest running soap opera in the world--premiering in 1951 (I listen thanks to the BBC4 podcast). Although currently we're in the third week of three weeks of classic episodes but they have started already recording episodes, premiering next week, from the actor's homes--they posted photos of how different actors have set up their own recording stations at their homes (they also apparently have rewritten the scripts so they will involved fewer characters in each 15 minute episode and will be more "introspective" which I assume means we're gonna start getting thought monologues or something, but don't really know...) And wow, I'd never heard of Unshackled before. It sounds like... quite the show. Thanks! I was gonna mention that too--as you point out very different (wasn't Meta almost in a trance?) Of course she helped come up with the concept with the Cordays (or is that an apocryphal story?) I always thought it was interesting that Bill Bell helped save the show early on--when he had basically co-created Another World and yet it was Irna's other protege, Agnes Nixon, who saved that show. And only Sunday-Thurs currently during the pandemic. (I am not sure but I think it went from 15 to 12 mins when it expanded from five to six days--so really it's still the same amount of programming each week.

Yes. Some of the radio soap tv transfers used new stories (like Young Dr Malone--I'm not sure about Irna's The Brighter Day which briefly seemed to be a hit on TV). But GL used essentially the same scripts, just with narration added for the radio version. The cast would perform the TV version live, and then would go to the radio studio and record tomorrow's radio episode (which in a way would serve as a rehearsal for the TV live version the following day--if that makes sense). This lasted until 1956. So I guess if you missed it on TV you could listen on radio. I believe that before this the radio version was done live.

Send me a PM--I have to find and upload it but of course I will as soon as I eventually can Yeah--if I recall correctly they only allowed so much scanning per visit (and some things couldn't be scanned at all, albeit not much that interested me) though I also snuck a few phone pics... I wonder why they changed the policy? I did mention that it was for research purposed (which was true, more or less ) At any rate, it goes up to the 1984 Olympics and obviously was written before Marland came on--and, from all I can tell, is largely what the first year ended up being, so I think Agnes Nixon's involvement was much closer than some seem to think.

I have a 100 page "Love" bible copyrighted to Agnes Nixon in 1982 scanned from her Northwestern archives if that counts (The town has a different name, the characters don't...)

The Fan Who Knew Too Much is a terrific read (and not just for the soap opera chapter)--I actually quoted from it for my MA essay on homosexuality in soap operas (in an intro section going over the history as briefly as possible). I believe it is in that book, but I may be thinking of a different one, where it is suggested that John M. Young, who took over writing Right to Happiness in 1942 until it ended in 1960, managed to "out-Irna" Irna Phillips in his storylines (I wonder if he wrote for anything else). I will say that aside from Guiding Light, the radio soap opera that has grabbed me the most is Right to Happiness, and I'm surprised they never tried to adapt it to TV. It's also often called a GL spin-off though it seems like those characters from GL returned pretty quickly to GL--(Rose Kransky I mean) What's so odd about that law suit about Guiding Light is I've read (in Jim Cox's Radio Soap Opera Encyclopedia for example, republished as The A to Z of Radio Soap Operas) that Guiding Light, along with other soaps, had been sold to P&G by Irna in 1942 (which is when she stopped writing several of them--Right to Happiness for example--though she stayed on at Guiding Light). Thanks as always for your wonderful details--fascinating about that Road of Life/Days story connection. Agnes Nixon told variations of the story on both AMC and Loving... (I guess she wasn't official HW at AMC when the story was told there but she was still heavily involved we know) We're lucky that so much of the Meta storyline has survived--it's enthralling stuff. I remember when I became obsessed with soaps as an 11 year old way back in 1991 thanks to AMC, I immediately tried to read as much as I could from the library about the history. And they had three record album releases of radio soaps--only four episodes per record and most were a mix of shows, but one was four episodes from the start of the Meta storyline on GL and I listened to those episodes over and over (then in the late 90s I had the chance to find literally about 100 more episodes from that time thanks to the internet). It's terribly compelling stuff--sometimes actually quite chilling. You raise really great points about Irna and the unwed mother/lost or dead child storylines. Thanks for so many examples--I love learning about stuff like this.

The October/November 1992 All My Children/Loving cross over (advertised in joint promos as Corinth/Pine Valley: Fatal Connection) involving Carter Jones was what hooked me on Loving. I didn't even know there was a soap called Loving until it aired so, while the crossover didn't do much for Loving's ratings in general, it did work on me. There used to be at least one episode of the climax of the story which took place over a week on Loving with Trevor, Jackson and Jeremy tracking Carter to Corinth, I can no longer find it. But there are a number of AMC episodes from the weeks before when Dinah Lee and Hannah were staying at Myrtle's boarding house (she'd later attend Hannah's wedding, IIRC). Here's on.

Yeah, it's a bit sneaky to always mention GL's long run because there were extended periods (at least two) where it was off the air. (From Wiki: The show was cancelled by NBC twice, once in 1939 and once in 1946. The first time on October 13, 1939, it was brought back by popular demand of the listening audience and began again only four months later in January 22, 1940. (Although some of the characters, Rose Kransky and part of her family, briefly transitioned to another Phillips' creation, The Right to Happiness, with Phillips bringing back the characters to The Guiding Light when NBC restarted the show.) The November 29, 1946 NBC cancellation coincided with the Federal Communications Commission forcing a split of NBC and the creation of the ABC network. CBS would pick up the show seven months later on June 2, 1947. CBS would be where the show would stay until its cancellation on television in September 2009. Procter & Gamble was the original sponsor of The Guiding Light until March 16, 1942, when General Mills started sponsorship. Procter & Gamble would again sponsor the show when CBS picked up the show on June 2, 1947. The show started in the locale of Five Points, a fictional enclave neighborhood of Chicago, but in 1947 when CBS brought back the show the locale transitioned to the fictional suburb of Los Angeles, Selby Flats.) And of course for a while Irna had that hour block of her shows which sounds pretty groundbreaking: From 1943 to 1946, The Guiding Light and two other Phillips-created soaps (Woman in White and Today's Children) were aired as a programming block known collectively as The General Mills Hour, with Guiding Light cast member Ed Prentiss acting as master of ceremonies. Major characters made crossover appearances between the three shows, and at one point during this period, Phillips considered the experiment of running the individual program segments longer or shorter than the then-traditional quarter-hour. However, the Hour was disbanded before Phillips could proceed further with the idea The fourth show was religious programming The Light of the World. The Bauers didn't come until the show premiered on CBS--I'm not even sure how many characters appeared on the NBC and CBS versions--Ed Prentis' Ned Holden is the only one who seems to have transitioned and he lasted a year on CBS.

Whose writing did people like the most? I remember enjoying much of Margaret DePriest's run.

Does anyone buy that they really were considering keeping AW around for long?

Wonderful photos. Thanks All My Shadows. I actually really appreciated how the Richie stuff was done (I think it started under Brown/Esensten?) For well over a month he was a bartender at Krystal's who honestly I just thought was a bit player--he had a few lines, seemed like a good guy, etc. So I was genuinely surprised when it was revealed that he was a villain stalking Babe, etc--

When I discovered radio episodes of GL on the 90s (I got sent a disc with about a hundred) they were all from this story, starting with the death of Chukie (who was forced by his father to be more masculine leading to his death)--really great stuff. Interesting that the Guiding Light spin-off (and apparently extremely popular) The Right to Happiness was no longer on the same radio network (I believe it was on NBC which is where Guiding Light was until the mid or late 40s).

Is this it?

Annie was dull as a good girl/damsel in distress. The whole reveal with Richie and her turning out to be the nutcase was, I almost hate to admit, a very smart move as was Pratt's writing for her in general (again I hate to admit). As for Cecily. I was introduced to her in her second run so NEVER got the appeal. It didn't help that they paired her with Lawford's Charlie, ick (I just hated his character--I wish no disrespect on the actor, RIP)

Yes, Malone mentioned that in one interview (was it the video that student made?)

I always wonder if they did such a lousy anniversary episode (this was after AMC had already done a classic one for their 20th and then would go all out later for their 25th) because Malone and Gottlieb had already done the great week of flashbacks for Megan's death just a year or two before...

I have no idea if this link will work, but an Italian member of the Loving FB page posted an episode from June 1983--*yes* the very first week of Loving! Unfortunately... it's in Italian. But still fascinating to watch. https://www.facebook.com/christiangilles.collet/videos/1338972776141981/ Thank you! Nice to be back!! The City was actually my intro to JE--and it was love at first sight (I actually had seen the classic episode of her witholding her father's heart medication on GH before, but that was all). I think for some reason she really tied the show together--maybe it's because, as odd as this sounds, she did have a slightly more maternal element (or matriarchal anyway) that Sydney lacked. Early The City was a bit of a mess (understandable really given that they were trying something new--one of the last times ABC seemed reallywilling to invest and experiment in their soaps). The filming style was *too* hectic. The stories were all somewhat short term. The issue storylines didn't work (the racism story, the transgender story which was a first but had the trans character and her boyfriend written out right after the reveal) and the Masquerade mystery, while it had fun elements, was simply a bad idea... It was the Loving Murders but with *zero* stakes since we never cared about any of the victims or even all that much about most of the potential victims. But those final 6-8 months especially once Tracy came on were mostly gold I felt. My ABC had started airing the soap at 11:35 PM I believe by then, and it played particularly well as a late night soap for me--something to watch while I was getting ready for bed (hey, I was 16-17). Which does make me wonder once again about the Gottlieb/Malone/Griffith supernatural soap 13 Bourbon Street which Fox around the same time had wanted as a late night 30 minute soap and Logan couldn't shut up about how wonderful the pilot was (surely that should leak--c'mon) *but I digress*

From my years of being obsessed/fascinated with Loving and talking a bit to various people involved etc, Nixon was actually much more involved early on than many seem to credit her as being--I'm pretty certain of this. The basic set up was done by Nixon and Wakefield -- Marland only really tweaking things, it seems. Nixon was keen on focusing from the start on three social issues--incest, Vietnam PTSD and AIDS. Those were her ideas (or she sure took credit for them, anyway). Patrick Mulcahey, who co-scripted with Marland the pilot to Nixon's story, has also said that that first year at Loving was frustrating. In one interview he says he likes to be able to craft his scripts with little interference, and that Nixon would daily give ENDLESS notes on every script he was responsible for and for that reason he wasn't sorry to move on (not sure exactly when that happened). I get the feeling Marland also felt Nixon should have left him alone more. (Although Marland--as several have said--was very annoyed about the incest story being cut short by ABC, so obviously that story, even if instigated by Nixon, meant a lot to him). Nixon doesn't seem to be credited as HW on any episodes until her mostly wonderful 1993-94 run (her last run on any soap as credited HW--she was co-HW, mostly involved in the Bianca story, on AMC of course from 1999-2001). However, it seems that when Marland left she was the de facto headwriter on Loving for the next couple of years (and pulled back from AMC which suffered a bit)--noticeably those episodes never list a headwriter in their credits for the writing team. (I want to say that Nixon introduced Ava right after Marland left but I think I may have the dates wrong). Thanks for the shout out Vee! I dunno why I haven't wasted, err, spent any of my quarantine days on this forum, but here I am, back (and have just spent hours catching up on this great thread). I loved the reunion--much better than the other ones I have seen, and I'm glad there's talk of doing more. I did repeatedly try to get the host's attention to ask about Agnes/Doug (since they were comfortable gossiying about other behind the scenes figures) and the host WAS about to ask when something interrupted her. Maybe next time? As for Linda Gottlieb, I had heard that she stuck around ABC for a bit as a consultant (maybe she was still on contract after leaving OLTL?) Nice to see confirmation of that. The stories of Joe Stuart were awful but not remotely surprising after all we've heard about his time at OLTL. Of course he was given a stake in Loving (which does make me question Agnes Nixon a bit--and did she think actually asking a young actress to get a nose job for the sake of a story was a good idea? This isn't the same as an actress who already was planning to have a facelift--ie Margo Flax on AMC).

I've said it before but will say it again--the final six months of The City were *great*. It had really come into its own and was the soap I looked forward to the most. I think the writing was already on the wall by then (ABC still didn't own the show and it was apparently very expensive to shoot) but the ratings were actually going up IIRC--unlike the other ABC soaps at the time which were all starting to have issues. VERY slowly, but they were. ABC was into Aussie hunks at the time. Was it around the time Ingo joined GH? AMC also had around 1997 Tanner Jordan, played by another ex Heartbreak High actor Vince Poletto on as Tanner Jordan, Matteo's friend who tries to rape Hayley (a rather disastrous storyline--perhaps the worst in the mostly strong Broderick era).

I realize this is an old post, but I haven't seen a reply. ABC did not own Loving (or The City) strangely. It was owned by the company Agnes set up with her husband Dramatic Creations (always given the copyright credit at the end--and not to be confused with the first company Agnes and her husband set up for AMC and OLTL before ABC bought them--Creative Horizons).

The irony is I've read that ABC actually hired Rauch because they hoped OLTL wouldn't go the GH route and would be a sophisticated drawing room drama--like Rauch's AW was (I think the OLTL official trivia book says as much). But Rauch was uninterested in that and wanted to go all out, doing his attempt at Hollywood blockbusters, etc.