EricMontreal22

But wasn't Freevee only an American thing? How much of Amazon Prime's viewers used it? (In Canada it's a part of Prime Video and always was.)

Wait am I mis-reading you?> Did footage of Gillian Spencer surface? 😮

I don't fully remember. It was a teen boy who had been kept in a cage much of his life as he was abused and I think was somehow connected to Alex and Anna Devane and their evil megacriminal mother (??) At any rate there was a new teen scene in 2001 (I believe) including a mean jock, Marcus, and one of the younger Santos daughters (Rosa?) And they were trying to acclimatize him back into society, and Rosa (or Anita?) had a connection to him, but Marcus was jealous, and the mean kids would call him dog boy. Oh also all this teen scene (including I think Laura--second Laura) also were involved in a typically unrealistic story where the kids were all doing a lot of Ecstacy. I swear I'm not making any of this up... Passanante also was responsible for Gillian's death (which again I think was connected to the Devanes' mother) which led to a Heaven sequence where we got to see past characters (kinda a mini version of OLTL's Vicki in Heaven) which fans liked--well they liked seeing past characters--but it got extended much further, Gillian possesed Opal so she could kiss Ryan at one point, and Ghost Jesse actually SAVED Tad from almost walking into a nboose (which made no sense if he was a ghost, but...) etc That as well as Libidizone were both just too out there IMHO for AMC.

Randomly, through several different rabbit holes, I came across an interview with Jean Passanante when she retired from soaps in 2017. As most here know, after the disastrous McTavish second run at AMC, Agnes Nixon came out of her semi-retirement (she had still, and would continue to still, attend most of the story meetings even when she was "retired" but apparently would try to keep her input to a minimum) to help refocus the show (her previous last credited stints as a HW had been AMC in 89-92 as we've discussed, and Loving in 93-94.) Though Wiki lists Elizabeth Page as her co-HW, she wasn't in the initial credits (I remember being thrilled when I saw Nixon's name.) This was a bit before the Bianca coming out story, but what Nixon did best was to return a sense of Pine Valley as a community again (even bringing back characters to add colour like Enid Nelson) She also, as she does, did some retreads with mixed results (introducing Leo/Greenlee/Becca which played into past character tropes for "the young lovers" Nixon would always have during her runs at AMC--I think Greenlee was meant to be a new take on Erica Kane back then, with some similar issues but... rich. Becca, was a throwback to Tara but for a variety reasons that kind of character did not play very well in 1999) This was June 1999 or so. But by the Fall, Jean Passanante had started being credited just under her as co-HW (and I only really knew Jean as a HW from her brief year at OLTL which was not good, but to her credit she says she was always told she was just an interim writer until the Labines came in and so was not meant to do long term story.) I still think AMC remained good for a year (certainly better than under McTavish) but after that the show did start to seem pretty schizophrenic with some great and some not good at all material (Libidizone! Dog boy!) and choppy storytelling, which of course I blamed on Passanante and not Nixon. And that's probably unfair, though I still blame it primarily on Passanante and once Nixon's name left the credits the show became close to unwatchable (I'd say it was at its worst, but the worst was yet to come...) It does sound like they worked pretty separately which was clear on the show. According to Wiki, Passanante started getting solo credit in January 2001 and was out by the Summer, with a month or two with no credited HW (I remember the gossip at the time was she broke her contract to go to ATWT.) Then we got the year of Richard Culliton which was odd, filled with potentially good stories that were dropped or poorly resolved, and Culliton seems to have blacked out the entire experience (he was left to wrap up the extremely convoluted PROTEUS storyline Passanante started.) ANYWAY that's me rambling on about AMC history. But I found Passanate's interview answer about her time there, kinda interesting (and LOVED what she said about Nixon's "vertical storytelling": After AW’s cancellation, you went to ALL MY CHILDREN and worked alongside Agnes Nixon from 1999-2001. What was that like? Passanante: Working with Agnes was a revelation. The network execs and producers I’d worked with up until then had generally demanded we write fairly detailed long-term documents before we launched into a story. But Agnes, being Agnes, didn’t really have to do that. She wasn’t wedded to a document or preconceived notion of where the story was going, at least in terms of its details; she approached each day one scene at a time, and all the plot points came straight out of character. She also believed in “vertical scenes” — scenes that advance character, not plot, say, a chat between Myrtle and Erica just to illuminate the audience as to Erica’s frame of mind. Sometimes the powers-that-be on certain shows don’t love that kind of scene if it isn’t precisely moving story forward, which is kind of a shame. I really saw her as a mentor, though we had different styles of working. She couldn’t believe I actually thought in terms of building story toward some kind of climax or cliffhanger at the end of the week on Friday. She asked me once if I was good at jigsaw puzzles — I’m not — because of the way I like to piece plot points together. She really didn’t think like that. I’m not sure that was a compliment! She had a great, raucous cackle. And she loved a juicy piece of gossip. When my [AMC] contract was up after two years, I had a chance to go to WORLD TURNS and I grabbed it. Over my time with her on the show, Agnes had gotten increasingly less involved at AMC and frankly, at that point, I thought my days were numbered.

I was soooo excited for the 25th anniversary week (even if I had no idea who half the character cameos were) and the primetime special. As someone who had only been a viewer for 4 years but was obsessed with the history--and with no way to see old episodes, it was a godsend (and of course around the same time they released the coffee table book, I think the first for a soap opera.) It was a few pages back now that we discussed Gothic Agnes Nixon storylines, but in general I loved when AMC would dip into the Gothic too (Hell for the intro to Wildwind they were riffing on no less than Rebecca, Jane Eyre AND sensation serial classic Lady Audley's Secret all mashed up together.) I wasn't a regular viewer back then but I do like Nico with Julie best (I couldn't believe how appealing I found Nico actually, since I've NEVER been a Sonny fan...)

DISASTER. I got home and for some reason my DVR didn't record today's episode

That's a really good point, and often really important particularly when a writer comes on without previous soap experience. When Gottlieb brought on Michael Malone to OLTL, his work only really started to work for the soap when Josh Griffith (a writer I don't particularly think much of on his own) came on as co-HW.

Nice to see you Let's see if I can manage to keep up with the pace of a daily soap discussion for long on here... it's been a while.

You're right but I think that justification is true of younger women too (that they would all share the same style and basic look in reality) But, in hindsight I think you might have a point about the men's outfits. I'll pay better attention when watching today's episode

Thanks, I think I knew that in the back of my head as I remember him mentioning Sheffer and I know he was at ATWT briefly when Jean Passanante was there. I do know from a live interview I saw with Michael Park (which was Broadway related) from a few years ago now, he actually gave Felicia Minei Behr for introducing him to TV acting, after she had contacted him from some of his stage work (I believe she introduced herself after seeing him as a replacement Billy in the big mid 90s Carousel revival and asked if he'd ever consider soaps...)

100% agreed. Even with the stories that I don't feel are working, the show has established a good rhythm and mix. But it often seems like by the time these things iron out their kinks the decision's always been made (though I'm not sure if Amazon ever was in this for the long haul of a soap anyway...)

I'm not giving up my own halfbeard/halfstubble look anytime soon, and I know they're on trend, but that's another good point. I just feel like SO much thought has been put into the looks and differences that those looks convey with the women (and understandably so) that... barely any at all has been put into the men who are all just slightly varying degrees of traditionally handsome and basic good dressers.

Shame he doesn't have that chemistry with his husband. (not that they've really had a good scene together yet, IMHO)

Yeah, I know we've all covered the heavy exposition issue but it remains an issue for me. So much of the dialogue plays really well and then it just comes to a thud. I was looking back at early/first episodes of other soaps and none of them seemed this bad in that respect (ya ya I get that it's a different day and age, etc, although that also means that if people are curious about how characters are related and other issues, they could go to a well designed webpage.) Even on Monday when Nicole called Dani "little sister" at one point (and yes, I get that maybe they have a relationship where she always calls her little sister) it sounded forced to me. I have a twin sister who I never ever ever would call "twin sister" when talking to her. The Dana and Eva exposition dump scene also had these issues for me and just needed a bit more finessing because as it played I kept thinking "why is Dana telling her daughter all of this stuff NOW, especially since it's clear she already knows it? Isn't there some better way to incorporate this info into the dialogue" because as it was written it sounded like when a villain reveals their secret plan for the first time--and yet none of this was new info to Eva. (To be fair, that kind of writing isn't new to soaps--it's very Jim Reilly in fact, I just think this show doesn't suit that style and I don't like it )

I fully agree with all of these points (and have to say yes again about the men's haircuts-- I know it's much harder with men in general to do, but when each of the female characters seems to have such a distinct "take" to their hair, so much so that you can almost identify them by their hair alone, and of course the women also have relatively distinctive clothing looks, the men--especially when all wearing the same basic suit for a wedding--are much harder to distinguish.) They really should have decided against the baby in the elevator plot. I get that it was to have Ashley and Andre share an experience, but not only was it hackneyed, it was too soon for those characters if they were going to do it at all. I still want more of a sense of how Ashley knows these various characters (like did Andre even know her before he got back from Belize or wherever--actually I still have no idea why he was scouting the hospital--repeatedly--for photo locations anyway when Nicole's practice isn't there...) She doesn't seem to have come from money whatsoever, so where's the connection especially given they apparently double date at that bar regularly? Sure these are plot points that normally I'd sayyou can slowly reveal--but if you're going to do that, then don't throw the character into islanded random storylines beforehand (it's late, I'm not sure I'm even making sense anymore )

I've been out of touch about a lot of the creation of this show--I knew that Guza was on board as co (or associate?) HW so wasn't surprised to see his name today just below MVJs but did do a double take when I saw Ron C's. Honestly, I paid zero attention and knew nothing of his writing before he became a HW at OLTL so I don't know if he has a good rep for breakdown writing or anything (to use an example, I think very very lowly of Jean Passanante as a HW but she had a stellar reputation as a breakdown writer, notably I think during the first Gottlieb/Malone era at OLTL--so much so that she was the main teacher of how to do a breakdown when ABC had their daytime writer training program.) I suspect last week was largely the sample scripts too (adjusted of course.) Didn't one interview with MVJ say that because there hadn't been a new soap in so long, MVJ had no soap bibles to use as examples (which seemed odd to me given that I actually have copies of a number of classic soap bibles) and so didn't create a traditional one if any? At any rate, I believe the main technique with soap bibles was to provide, alongside them, a certain number of daily breakdowns as well as the first week of scripts. Will they use her longterm as a viewer recap character? Obviously her gossiping in this episode didn't really serve that function I don't think, since anyone tuning in for the first time today wouldn't have any idea who any of the names were, but Agnes Nixon used to always talk about "recap characters" who are largely there to have conversations explaining what viewers who missed a week might need to know. 100% Now Erica pulling a gun on someone in a PRIVATE situation she set them up in might make sense, but otherwise it's not an Erica move at all (even in her substance abusing phases...)

It IS refreshing to see the white characters primarily serve the "best friend" etc role--I feel kinda ashamed admitting this but for me, it's one of those things I had never really thought about until you see something different. If that makes sense. Dani and Pamela at the bar REALLY was a waste I think--I know they want to have a lot of action right now, but I think Dani could have cooled her heels at the bar a BIT longer before immediately going to her family (but at least Pamela acknowledged that very fact in her dialogue--pointing out she hadn't even had a drink, etc.) I'm catching up on what I can on ALL the talk here about the show (I only got caught up on Sunday) and I get the sense people are mostly really loving the sets. I'm really on the fence about them--they just don't feel at all lived in to me yet (and true, for some of the characters I suppose this makes sense but you can look like you have a rich house but still one that is a home.) THAT said, I haven't liked the sets on ANY of the US Daytime soaps in well over a decade (WELL over a decade) and by those standards I mostly like the sets...

I'll have to investigate and like I said, I didn't get much from Corley about it--but that wasn't the focus of my interview anyway. My impression was he was happy to be working with Broderick and FMB after what had happened at AMC and enjoyed the brief time there, but (and again this is PURELY my projecting and not based on exact quotes) that they maybe never quite got the feel of the show nor had the time to understand and learn the history of the show (and I don't think any had a history of watching the show, although I know Corley at any rate hadn't had one with AMC either when he joined either but he was part of the late 80s ABC writer training program which would teach at least some of that.) I did like (most) of the FMB/Broderick brief era at AMC so much that if I had been online reading soap opera groups at the time and knew they moved to ATWT I would have checked it out for at least a few weeks, but I was clueless (it was only a year or two later, when Nixon came in briefly to try to save AMC after McTavish's second run that I would start to really be aware of all of that, otherwise all I knew was from the little I would find in soap rags, which I rarely read anyway, and paying as close attention to the closing credits as possible on the shows I did watch...) Ah thanks Nice to see you here.

That makes sense date wise (that she wasn't involved with Port Charles) because FMB was at As the World Turns from Nov 1996 to June 1999 (PC premiered in 97). So she began getting credited at ATWT only 7 months once she stopped being credited after being fired from AMC in April 1996. I've always found the trajectory about this all interesting (when I was interviewing Hal Corley about his time at AMC he asked to only vaguely talk about his time at ATWT so I only have some details here.) Because, from all I gather, by some point in 1994 FMB was becoming increasingly unhappy with McTavish's work at AMC (and others in the writing room may or may not have been as well,) ratings were also falling (partly as they climbed at DAYS) and I think her belief was McTavish was starting to rely on stunts (doppelgangers, the infamous bombing situation) and running out of the ideas that made her early stuff work so well. So FMB had McTavish let go from AMC in Spring 1995. Corley, who was on the writing team, was an interim HW (and credited on episodes I have) right after until FMB convinced Lorraine Broderick to return, who was credited starting in October 1995. Though I think creatively the show markedly improved (even though there were some flubs during LB's run at that time, no question) ratings did not improve and ABC then had FMB fired, when ATWT picked her up. So Behr didn't have much of a chance to work with the writing team she had chosen to replace McTavish and Francesca James came on as EP (a creative choice at least.) At ATWT, Behr inherited the writing team of Stephen Black and Henry Stern who, while I was not watching, I think are among the show's least fave writers (hadn't they written a kinda soap opera for the Playboy Channel? Eden or something?) They were quickly outed and FMB had a number of HW teams though Addie Walsh was often a part of it (I wonder if FMB was aware of her due to her work with Agnes Nixon on Loving?) Then basically as soon as Broderick, Corley, and maybe some others, were let go from AMC, FMB basically immediately hired them for ATWT--the writers she wanted for AMC anyway--this would be February 1998. Broderic, Corley and Walsh then were ATWT's HW until June 1999 when FMB was let go as EP (and returned to ABC Daytime) and Goutman came in. I don't think ATWT think particularly highly of FMB's run at ATWT though I've never heard it spoken of as the worst--maybe there was a sense that with her as EP and bringing in the AMC writers she was just trying to make Oakdale more into Pine Valley, I admit I really haven't looked into her time there. Still, I just find the back and switch interesting.

I appreciate the suggestion, thanks so much! Yeah, one of the saddest things to ever happen to ABC Daytime was that apparently it was between Behr and Brian Frons to become the new head of ABCD (in 2002 I think?) And we know who they chose...

Not sure where to post this (I suspect someone wrote something elsewhere?) but in sad news, the children of Felicia Minei Behr have posted about her death on FB. As everyone here knows it was her run on AMC that made me a soap fanatic as a kid/young teen: We are writing on behalf of our mom, Felicia. She passed away peacefully on March 2nd surrounded by loved ones. We appreciate the love and support you have given our family over the last 5 years as she battled brain cancer. For memorial/viewing information, please reach out to us. - Francesca Behr and Kristina Behr Miller Some writers who worked under her, including Hal Corley (who was so great when I interviewed him for my MA) have posted replies: Hal Corley: Devastating news, Kristina Behr and Francesca. Felicia was my ally and sometime champion. I worked with her on AMC and ATWT and again when she was an executive at ABC. Nobody reveled in the form's glories - and meeting its considerable challenges - more than Felicia. She was a rare producer who had absolute trust in those on her team: she delegated with confidence, investment, and respect. She appreciated soap writers as foundational to the genre's success or failure, as few do. She was also famously unflappable: no crisis escalated into drama because Felicia left the drama to the small screen. A genuinely generous-spirited human being away from her tiered executive responsibilities, she was also my friend. She continued to stay in touch after we both left daytime, and a call could buoy me with nostalgia and wickedly funny memories of shared experience. And did Felicia have stories! I loved her dearly and send my heartfelt condolences to you both and your family. Millee Taggart Ratcliffe: I second every word Hal!

Not sure where to post this (I suspect someone wrote something elsewhere?) but in sad news, the children of Felicia Minei Behr have posted about her death on FB. As everyone here knows it was her run on AMC that made me a soap fanatic as a kid/young teen: We are writing on behalf of our mom, Felicia. She passed away peacefully on March 2nd surrounded by loved ones. We appreciate the love and support you have given our family over the last 5 years as she battled brain cancer. For memorial/viewing information, please reach out to us. - Francesca Behr and Kristina Behr Miller Some writers who worked under her, including Hal Corley (who was so great when I interviewed him for my MA) have posted replies: Hal Corley: Devastating news, Kristina Behr and Francesca. Felicia was my ally and sometime champion. I worked with her on AMC and ATWT and again when she was an executive at ABC. Nobody reveled in the form's glories - and meeting its considerable challenges - more than Felicia. She was a rare producer who had absolute trust in those on her team: she delegated with confidence, investment, and respect. She appreciated soap writers as foundational to the genre's success or failure, as few do. She was also famously unflappable: no crisis escalated into drama because Felicia left the drama to the small screen. A genuinely generous-spirited human being away from her tiered executive responsibilities, she was also my friend. She continued to stay in touch after we both left daytime, and a call could buoy me with nostalgia and wickedly funny memories of shared experience. And did Felicia have stories! I loved her dearly and send my heartfelt condolences to you both and your family. Millee Taggart Ratcliffe: I second every word Hal!

Awww JJ. I think this take is pretty spot on. I keep forgetting about FreeVee as we never had it with Amazon Prime in Canada anyway, and this was just up with their other shows (I only realized when I was at a conference last year in Chicago and was watching on my phone and started seeing ads--and realized I wasn't actually logged into my Amazon Canada account.) And you're right--I don't think the platforms right now are interested in constant programming like this. I take that back--they seem keen right now to try more game shows and reality shows in the format--but not scripted. It is too bad though because, for the most part, I felt like they had found a way to make it work.

Thanks!

I've mostly enjoyed the Amazon version, but I know this isn't really surprising to anyone and certainly I feel for a 4 times a week streaming soap I felt mostly satisfied with it--I don't feel the way I felt with my only other experience with streaming soap reboots (over ten years back) with AMC/OLTL where so many factors just screwed up so much potential. And I appreciate that we have months still to go (I think they film three months in advance?) so it's not one of those typical "well maybe it will be renewed, oh I guess not" experiences. I agree with most of your take (though now I've watched this week's too.) Fallon is fine, but I wish she wasn't tied into the whole Seb thing which doesn't really make sense (IS she actually over him or not, anyway? It seems to change with each scene and who cares now that he's off-screen anyway.) Jane's fling with Clint I like more or less, except when they show the characters truly being stupid. It's one thing to use the empty room at Eirining (or whatever) Rising, I can accept that even among grown adults, but not being able to control yourself and not be so loud that the other tennants can you hear you? And I'm sorry, even as a teen I would have made sure the room was clean and NOTICED a condom in the middle of the floor, let alone as an adult trying to keep this secret (how do you even forget to get rid of a condom is beyond me) and just yech. I have liked the stuff with Aaron EXCEPT my issue with Brett having a new BF was... No young gay guy suddenly is going steady with a new guy within, what, a week? They could have had some line about him reconnecting with an ex, or *something* to make it plausible for me. I don't understand if we're meant to even like Holly. I was glad that Taye didn't budge and give her his job (I honestly thought he was going to, and maybe he still will.) And I like Cara a lot--I even like her interacting with Nicolette, but I still have NO NO NO idea why she seems to think she has to keep her search for her sister secret. I know Remy doesn't like her, but regardless, it doesn't make a lick of sense to me. (And yet, I have been enjoying watching the show, despite my complaints with almost all the current storylines? So there's that. )