FrenchBug82

I hear the argument that it was dated by the mid 90s AND that a real song as credits is not usually a great idea but I still listen to that song as a song unironically and without any relation to AW. I like that song.

Another world had a character have an unknown twin and they were preparing, a few years later, an unknown triplet to the twins. To be fair, the circumstances of those births left just a teensy bit wiggle room but still! (They dropped it before it was fully revealed so it never became canon)

Here is what I think. First let's set aside the absolute trashing of the character in latter years when she had nothing to do anymore with what Bev had played and where, frankly, I can't blame Marj for cashing the check and just phoning in a hysterical over-the-top caricature. What this clip shows is that even in her early years the writing had shifted for the character already for one. And for two I can't entirely blame her for not trying to be Bev - no one could - and as someone who had played a recast before she knew it is better not to try. They hired her because of how she played Capitol's Myrna and this is what she was channeling. It wasn't Alexander as BmK played her but it could have worked with stronger writing/stories. When it didn't, she clearly could not be bothered to salvage whatever they were doing

Well that would have been easy since Trisha moved to New York City under another name to be a book publisher around that time... 😉 Joking aside, I could have enjoyed that as a Loving fan but I am not sure Loving legacy characters were going to be of any interest to the "new" audience The City was supposed to reach. If they wanted Loving fans, they could have kept Loving. And yes, that's me being bitter.

To be fair, it is not just Marj. The entire scene is poorly written and staged, full of histrionics and ridiculously fake pretend "fights". I love the show and everyone involved but this was more cringey than I remembered.

The character of Anton never quite worked but there was something about this guy that got my hormones flowing. For all the talk of AMC being in decline by that stage of McTavish's 92-95 tenure, I thought the storylines from that episode were all good - from fine (Not a fan of Julia but whatever) to outstanding (Janet return, Erica vs Kendall)

Yes but my main gripe is that producers have tried to become "contemporary" has either meant story gimmicks (like inserting the Internet everywhere in the 2000s) or lessening the visual quality in order to feel 'realer" or more modern. The best way to be more modern and contemporary would be to address the world as it is in stories. Whether it is on race, sexuality, "social mores", writers still write characters as if it is the 1960s in many ways and it turns off young people. No need for hip camera angles. Just write good story that resonate in the world that we live in today - not the conservative rural Americana of the 1950s that is still so pregnant in our collective imagination. The interesting thing about The City is that while it did try innovative things visually speaking (and while I do not like the shakyish camera work, I do think American soaps should move away from the traditional sets and copy British soaps that have a real-life setting that look more like primetime in terms of staging like the City did), it did try to be modern story-wise as well. First soap transsexual character that I know of - which in the 90s was quite something. I do think the cast was too white. It is never good for a soap in general but while it might be believable in a small mid-America town like Corynth, setting a soap in New York and having a mostly white cast rings wrong. Having superstars lead the black cast still does not replace having a real rich tapestry of characters of color. Modernity would have to come to terms with the fact we are moving fast towards being a minority-majority country.

I liked early Natalie, who wasn't very nice, a lot more. I used to be so irritated when people would talk about her after her death, particularly when trying to guilt Janet, as saintly. She was nice by the end but she certainly wasn't a "gem" - which is how I liked her. It often irritates me how shows think complicated ambitious women have to be defanged to be likeable and viable long-term.

Does anyone know the timing of their real-life romance? I think she was still married to John Hurley when they started frolicking around but I always had assumed it was after their characters had been paired up.

Verbal exchange is not quite the same as what I meant. It is entertaining but it is different from having an equal keeping you in check in the audience's mind. Trading verbal barbs is fun stuff but it is easy. Having an enemy who knows your number and is not afraid of you and can look at you in the eyes as an equal in the audience's esteem is quite another thing and is important for the show's balance. Erica was Erica. She was quite an unsufferable person if you think about it. That's why Mona was so important in humanizing her and I think the rivalry with Brooke was helping in a similar way. Which brings us to this. I agree. I only mentioned Brooke because Brooke way outlasted Barbara and we were talking about her disappearance in the last decade of AMC. By that time, every woman who went up against Erica, verbally or more rarely otherwise, you always felt that if there was something at stake other than verbal sparring, Erica would wipe the floor with them. Brooke was her equal in intellect and accomplishments. And fan affection, if not fame. I am not the most objective person to ask because I never cared for Maria at all. But, obviously, no. Only reason to me she could even be mentioned in this conversation is because the one unforgivable thing Erica ever did was at Maria's expense so that gives her, in theory, moral superiority over Erica. But in terms of intellect or charisma, Maria has nothing on Erica - or Brooke IMO. She was "likable" (not to me but broadly speaking) but that's not enough to go up against complex layered characters. Maria has things going for her (again not to me but broadly speaking) and she was strong - but I never got any depth from her. All I will say is try to picture any other character mentioned here deliver the lecture Brooke gives Erica about Bianca in the video shared a few comments up and you can't think of any other "rival" that would have enough weight for Erica to listen. Picture Krystal or Annie or Greenlee or Maria. You'd just roll your eyes. Erica would just have to reply who do you think you are with contempt and the audience would probably side with her, despite agreeing with what is being said. Erica couldn't do that with Brooke, at least not from the audience's POV. She could say the words but the audience knew who Brooke was and Brooke had earned the right to lecture/advise her.

I don't want to be unkind but I notice a pattern of Alan announcing surprising gets that end up not "being able to make it" on the actual date, a mere week or so after the announcement. Once, OK, things happen. But this isn't the first time that the unlikeliest announced participant ends up not participating.

Also. Not that I wanted them to keep JB to prop up SL of course, since JB and Brooke were fantastic on their own merits, but I also think getting rid of any character that could go toe-to-toe with Erica as equals ended up hurting Erica. With a character like that, having someone her own age and a similar affectionate relationship with the audience taking her down a notch or two from time to time is necessary so that she doesn't become insufferable. Krystal and Greenlee weren't exactly the adversaries that could do that effectively for the audience.

I can only speak for myself but I 100% would accept soaps cutting budget in clothes hugely by reusing the same clothes -as real people do - if it allows for better budget for other visually important things like sets that don't look like papier-maché et decent camera work. British soaps dress almost all their characters in non-descript Old Navy type stuff and it doesnt hurt the show in the slightest. Granted American soaps have a lot more socially-high characters that require better clothing than generally gritty working-class British soaps but I would have Reva doing every scene in that pink suit if it had saved money for a proper stable camera.

It is interesting because, while my journey to soaps is complicated by the fact I grew up in Europe where the US soaps we had over there - of which AMC was not - were several years earlier (so while I was born in 82, I technically started watching many shows from their mid-80s output), when I later emigrated, the Natalie-in-the-well storyline is the first thing I ever heard about All My Children.

I wonder how that story ended up back in YR, whether it is a coincidence of bad ideas happening to different people or whether there was a writer in common. Anyway thanks for the info. Had never heard of it

When was that floated? In 2006-2007 the Young and the Restless did that exact story of infamous on-and-off villain Sheila Carter getting surgery to look like a character she had only tangential interactions with prior (Phyllis) and impersonating her to get revenge on the ones that did. Which fit even worse with YR than it would have with AMC. Reverting Janet back to crazy Janet was an insult and they made it a cruel one by having her kill Trevor. I enjoyed having KC back because I like KC and she looked like she was having fun but it was abysmal and there was no subtlety or layers to what was being written and, I am afraid, played. Janet was being used as a plot device.

This is why I think it is important to distinguish personal behavior from business decisions. Lord knows there are SO many creative decisions that I find galling from the last few years of ATWT but budget considerations have to be excused. Sometimes you have to make tough calls that gut part of the show in order to save the whole (we sometimes forget that about why some "vets" are not used as much - they probably cost more than the latest teen character). What I don't forgive Goutman for is his personal behavior towards the show and some of its actors. There is a level of contempt that is not acceptable.

I have been rewatching the 1991 episodes on YT at the moment so it is fun that the conversation ends up back here. I had completely memory-holed that so many of the Aldens had disappeared at some point. I knew some had gone and came back but not all at once. I thought there was something unique to PS that might have led him to being fired. I know nothing of the demons you speak off but it sounds it was more all of them at the same time. And on the Ally/Matt note I just realized LW had good chemistry with all her romantic partners on Loving because I kinda rooted for all her pairings - even when it was supposed to be "obvious" she wanted to be with Casey I liked her and Cooper as well.

OK I feel like I am abusing now and you can ignore my questions if this is too much but this is an interesting rabbit hole so let me ask... what? I feel I must have read it at some point and yet it doesn't ring a bell. Stephens didn't leave by choice?

I don't know enough about the writing team shenanigans (but thanks to DeliaIrisFan for this fascinating expose) to comment on the role the writing team had in what I am about to say but while the Natalie-in-the-well story had a lot going for it, I never thought Kate Collins - who was wonderful as Natalie both in her calculating days and in her kinder latter days - did Janet very well. It was always too broad and obvious a character for me when she played it, even when the backstory attempted to give her layers. The latter returns of Janet (especially her killing Trevor) count to me as one of the vilest moments of late AMC (along with the unabortion and Dixie and the pancakes), but the MINUTE they said they were bringing back Janet but played by KC, I knew they were going to write her as the broad crazy stereotype rather than the layered complicated version of Robin Mattson.

Thank you for your extended explanation. That's the brilliant stuff that comes from this kind of community. I admittedly didn't remember some of these ickier plot points (I in particular was convinced they had managed to never write Clay and Stacey as sleeping together which bugs me in a way Stacey falling apart after Jack's "death" doesn't). They had clearly left the door open for Jack to come back at some point; do we know why they never did?

Maybe I am too easily-pleased but the fact she remembers Montega was a nice touch.

Can someone explain to me why the gaslighting was/is so unpopular. Granted it was thirty years ago but I remember being very interested by it at the time - it was not out-of-character for Clay and Stacey was a very likable character so you were rooting for her. Was it because people thought Stacey should have caught on quicker?

I have literally loved every English-language soaps I have watched so maybe I am too much a fan. LOL There are storylines I do not connect with (science-fiction is a no for me) but there has never been a soap that has instinctively repulsed me. Even Passions where there was a lot of science-fiction but the soap beats were still fun, even when poorly acted. French soaps (I am originally French) on the other hand make me very uncomfortable. The production values are below cheap.

Can I point out that one reason this really works is not just the one-liners but because Barbara is actually right about the name? That's good writing where not everything is black and white and the antagonist can actually be the one that makes a reasonable point. That makes the scenes more interesting. For someone for whom this is a bit earlier than what I am familiar with, what drama are we talking about? And how do you see it spilling on-screen? I get the Krystal hate, I really do. But I don't think introducing another actress in that age range with no established ties was a bad idea. Injecting an outsider can sometimes help. Of course, on the other hand, it is a real shame they completely lost the plot for Brooke for so long because she should have continued to be the other anchor of the show vs Erica. Julia Barr is a wonder and I will never understand what happened there.