GLATWT88

1 hour ago, titan1978 said:

I watched GL off and on in the late 90’s- early 2000’s, so my perspective is skewed compared to a longtime fan of the show. But I did follow the soap mags at the time, so I know what the stories were.

I think the show had one real chance at regaining its footing and that was the first year or so of Barbara Esenstein and James Harmon Brown. Which in itself was a miracle after the two years before then.

The show had dimension again, it had an almost excellent and very watchable cast across the board, and an engine with Annie that was both attention getting and a proper story for the talents of Zimmer and Watros. Everything big they did after that to me just chipped away at the show- the Clone, San Cristobal, Nursery Rhyme Stalker, Harley as central heroine, etc. Labine was miscast as HW.  I felt a few worthy sparks until Conboy, then it was truly a shell of a show, limping along until it was cancelled. P&G ended their time with soaps with two of the worst EP’s (GL’s being incompetent, ATWT’s being egotistical).

I cannot blame Zimmer for sticking to her negotiated contract, no matter what that meant to the show’s budget woes. These people have lives too- they pay mortgages, college tuition for kids, and any agents/managers they have. That part of the country was expensive to live in, even back then. Even outside New York was still expensive because of the commuters to New York. Anyone that did take cuts mid cycle should have been looking for their exits- that was a huge sign to me that the show had limited time left.

I feel this way about GH too, which is the show I have the most love for and have paid the most time from my own life keeping up on. Right now it feels very much like watching GL in those last few years felt- except better sets and more vets. But the stories just don’t build and the production doesn’t try to make any real emotion play out. And other than the vets, the cast is full of good looking people that all are just there.

During COVID I watched almost all of the Curlee era of the show- and while it does take a wrong turn during JFP’s tenure, it was still very watchable and felt like a whole show. I now believe that Curlee/Reilly/Demorest when Calhoun was there through the Blackout is possibly the best soap I have ever seen when it comes to range and everyone having a place and purpose. I am glad I didn’t know that when I saw the show by 2000.

And I can never rant about Conboy without mentioning that stupid baseball diamond set.

Any time period in specific you can recommend for the Curlee era. I might do a revisit as I have some time.

Funny you made that comparison to GH, as I was just thinking the same thing today.  GH is getting Peapack numbers currently but with lower demos, but it visually looks pretty impressive all considered. Granted, this is 2023 vs 2008/9...so not a fair comparison. GH getting just over 2 million viewers, 15 years after GL was doing those same numbers isn't too bad. Also, I wonder if delayed viewing is also helping. I wish there was more transparency with these numbers. Another factor may be the steady decline in viewership across daytime and primetime which may have made networks a little more generous with budgets especially with soaps which bring a consistent number of viewers daily. 

53 minutes ago, kalbir said:

If March 1997 saw one hour B&B and a new 30 minute Bell show, how would the schedule have been arranged? Remember 1997 was the height of Reilly's Days so CBS would not want the new Bell show head-to-head w/ Reilly's Days.

I'm thinking for Eastern time

11 am The Price is Right

Noon Local programming

12:30 pm Y&R

1:30 pm B&B

2:30 pm new Bell show

3 pm As the World Turns

Then for Central, Mountain, and Pacific time

10 am The Price is Right

11 am Y&R

Noon Local programming

12:30 pm B&B

1:30 pm new Bell show

2 pm As the World Turns

That seems about right. I would assume that ATWT would be moved to the 10am slot in some markets like NYC, as GL had already moved from its 3pm slot. 

I would be very curious to see how BB would have performed at 1 hour runtime. While, household numbers were strong in 97, BB's demos were mediocre. It consistently underperformed the ABC soaps, YR, and Days which was dominated the 18-49 demo that year. There were several weeks where GL outperformed BB in the demo in 97 and other weeks they were pretty much on par. Aside from stronger viewership, I'm not sure why they would want to expand BB at the time. Although, BB may have been doing better in 95 and 96, which I would have to check.

Nonetheless, the issue with the CBS soaps at the time was that they skewed older. ATWT, GL, and BB were usually at the bottom half of the demo rankings.  I am curious how a full hour of BB would fair against DAYS. I think a younger, fresher soap would have been in the works. I don't know what that would look like in 1997 - we got Port Charles and Sunset Beach which were supposed to be the answer to that. Maybe SuBe's numbers made CBS hesitant. 

50 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

@Errol I'm not saying this anywhere but here. There is a rumor that Disney has bought B&B. All of it. Current & vintage. Sounds crazy. Leave it with you. It was said at the Y&R Fan Weekend. 

Wow, that's pretty amazing. I wish they had a streaming platform for soaps. Not sure why some of these companies are so protective of this old content, removing it from YT or pulling it down from other sources. Let's be honest, old soap episodes are not lucrative. It would be great if there was even a network like Retro, MeTV, Buzzr (old game shows) that would just air old soap opera episodes. 

1 hour ago, Paul Raven said:

Just thinking that when CBS dropped EON, would things have been different had NBC picked it up and placed it at 4pm instead of Somerset?

it would have had a strong lead in from AW (although that didn't help Somerset)and be in a slot already held by a soap -at ABC it replaced a game show.

Who knows?

Oh freaky! I posted something very similar to this in the CBS Daytime thread. 

The best move would have been for Edge to go to NBC and placed right after AW.

It may have prevented AW's expansion - solving another NBC catastrophe. EON was an established soap, AW's lead in would have been good for Edge as AW's numbers were strong at the time of EON's transition. The most important factor would be clearance, but NBC seemed pretty good at that. Even low rated Texas and Doctors maintained strong clearance in spite of their numbers unlike soaps on the other networks. 

11 hours ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

I believe it was in a 1996 LA Time article where it was revealed that CBS had asked Bill Bell to create a new soap for them, the year before in 1995. Bill Bell wanted nothing to do with this & wanted to be left completely out of it. Their plan was to replace the P&G soaps. They were so brazen doing this in the open & P&G threw whatever is a business "fit" & there was a battle of words between CBS and P&G. P&G won, sorta. CBS agreed to abandon the idea of new soaps and to retain ATWT & GL but they had conditions. 

For ATWT it was a different way of telling stories, different narrative style. Lynn Liccardo calls it pod story-telling. Where the traditional style could be said to be weaving a tapestry where different strands from different stories were connected in pod story-telling people & their stories would be isolated, standalone. 

For GL it was a new production model, drastically different. 

I believe both these changes contributed to the demise of the shows. 

 

That's surprising and would have ended in disaster most likely. All soaps had been losing ground since the mid 1980s. A new soap wasn't going to solve the issues which led to these decreases.

I always say that it's a testament to GL's quality that it performed so well in the late 70s and early 80s up against GH's peak. It was a very consistent soap from 71 - 84, maintaining a steady rating in the 8s (and obviously it was wildly successful in the 50s and 60s but those were different times and conditions). To maintain in the Top 5 soaps during GH's strongest years and with insane numbers is truly incredible. It wasn't until 84/5 that the numbers took a drop, but this is true for the soaps in general. Just as the 1984/5 season was the peak for primetime soaps, I believe it to be the peak for daytime soaps as well. 1984 was also the peak of daytime revenue in ad sales. There was a steady decrease for the rest of the decade, in sales and viewership. 

In fact in 1994 and 1995, there were weeks where GL was still beating both ATWT and BB in the demo. While the numbers for GL dipped in the mid 80s. From 1985 - 1994, it was a very middle performing soap. It wasn't performing at the bottom and wasn't too far off other more established soaps. It wasn't AW or RH. It also shows what good writing could do that GL jumped .4 rating from 90/91 to 91/92 season.

Furthermore, YR and BB were rare cases in the soap world. Of all the soaps to debut in the 1970s - 90s, only AMC, RH, YR and BB experienced much success. The rest pretty much stayed at the bottom of the ratings. One other exception which I personally feel performed well was Capitol and it wasn't given much a shot, but its success could have come down to scheduling (same could be said for BB). I am a firm believer that scheduling was a huge factor in the success and demise of soaps in the 1970s and 1980s. Also, SB had a bit of success, but it never left the bottom either. 

While I think investing in the quality and rejuvenation of the soaps was a good idea, and probably thanks to Bell not taking the offer, I don't think CBS went about it in the right way. I definitely don't think replacing GL and ATWT would have ended up getting CBS what it wanted as the truth was that the numbers just wouldn't be there for a new soap in the 90s. We saw it for The City, PC, SuBe, Passions. Not only did GL have to suffer through preemptions due to OJ in 1995. It also had to contend with a 10am timeslot move in major markets. 

24 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

Joan Collins would not have come cheap. She is a woman who knows her worth.

But CBS/P&G approved it. Even at that point I'm sure GL was not a money making machine. Those $$$ would have been better spent elsewhere. Was their any ratings bump when La Collins arrived?

No, there was no change at all. By the 2000s stunt casting wasn't going to save a soap. Even two years later when Joan Van Ark joined YR, it didn't make a dent. 

4 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

I started watching in 1998. I started middle school and got home from school around 2:45 so I could either choose ¨Guiding Light" or ¨General Hospital." The episodes I taste tested were on the same day.  On GH, Brenda and her mother were driving over a cliff. On GL, Cassie learned that she was in disbelief that she was pregnant with Hartś baby. The GL situation seemed more compelling. Most of middle school I watched GL, but I think I dipped a bit in high school (if I recall, SoapNet was airing early 80s ¨Ryan´s Hope¨ in 2002 and I found that more consistently compelling). I thought 2004 of ¨Guiding Light¨ was strong, but I associate that with a very specific point in my life. I thought Wheeler initially made the show very compelling.

I loved a lot of the family scenes and the approach to the material. I loved the warehouse bombing storyline. I thought the staging of ¨Romeo & Juliet" was intriguing. I liked Olivia manipulating the Spauldings by first lying that Emma was dead and then using her mere presence to manipulate them. I found the daily episodes the most compelling in my viewing years. I remember there was a scene where Olivia crashes Bill Lewis' bachelor party to Daniel Beddingfield´s ¨James Dean¨ because Olivia learned Bill had secretly been acquiring Spaulding stock during the SEC investigation. This was playing out with Danny and Jeffrey staging a warehouse bombing that would lead to Eden´s death. While Eden´s death was faked, a curious Michelle went to investigate and got caught up in the explosion. There was a scene with Danny in the hotel room telling someone that he was finally free and able to live happily ever after wiht Michelle while a siren blared in the background that was going off to the bombing to deal with Michelleś injuries. There was a very brief story where the younger set participated in a contest where they could earn a job at Spaulding clearly inspired by ¨The Apprentice.¨ There was a scene where Tammy, knowing she was losing, decided to prance around in her bathing suit for a car wash which pissed off Lizzie. Meanwhile, Sandy was lusting after Marina, his brother´s girlfriend. Phillip had returned and was looking to make life hell for Olivia. There was a very silly set of scenes where Phillip made Olivia wear a red dress to some sort of gala event, where I think they revealed that Alexandra had been Brad Green´s contact at Spaulding for the drug ring. I think that transition period (March-July 2004) was just remarkable. 

Early Kriezman was enjoyable as well. Dinah was impersonating Cassie throughout Europe leading to Dinah´s return to Springfield, which caused tension in Blake and Ross' marriage. The end of Roger story was enjoyable. The impersonation story was one of my favorite stories with JB arriving, Sandy saving Tammy from being hit by a car, Tammy and Jonathan growing closer, the confession by Sandy that Jonathan was really his son, and the realization how twisted Jonathan was by deflowering his own cousin to purposefully hurt Reva, who had taken Tammy in briefly earlier in the year after Tammy was embarassed by her own crush on Edmund. 

By January, 2005, I could feel the switch. I know some credit it to Lorraine Broderickś departure (she had been working as a breakdown writer I believe). There was just a change. The first set of stories Kriezman had planned were wrapping up and the next set were terrible. I watched a bit from February until April intermittenly. I think May, 2005, was the last solid month. Once they revealed Phillip was alive, a storyline we were suppose to invest in, I was pretty sure the show was done. I saw some episodes in July. The last episode I remember watching in any sort of series of episodes had Reva holding Nate/Alfred hostage and really giving him hell about what he had done to her son with Zimmer playing both the angry, the pain, and the love for Jonathan all at once. It was a strong scene, but I knew we weren going anywhere. 

I saw some episodes here and there. I tried to watch around February, 2009 when Jill Lorie Hurst was writing and she was getting a lot of praise. I watched the episode where Coop (a half-baked character at best) died, which was incredibly strong and then ended with Buzz crying over some totally inappropriate song. I´m not even sure I watched much of the final episodes. I did tune in for the finale. 

I agree. Somewhere around 2005 things just changed. A lot of familiar faces would leave and the show just felt different. 

The end was inevitable. The numbers just weren't there and they weren't coming back, but maybe the should have let the show wrap up with a bit more dignity.

@dc11786 when did you stop watching? 

It's wild how so many things changed or were scrapped because of the cuts. I do remember a lot of cast changes around 2005 and the show did unfortunately begin to feel different. 

I remember taking a break mid-2006 for a few months, not because I wasn't enjoying it, but I just had too much going on. When I finally did come back the show just felt so different. Then when Peapack happened, I just couldn't take seeing what happened to the production value. I know some people say it got better, but it was so hard to watch at first.

1 minute ago, Joseph said:

  Reveal hidden contents

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Here the 38 Available ones! His channel is quite a treasure trove!!!! Lost of Classic British TV!!!!

Thank you!!!

Do we have any actual figures in regard to these cuts. I know visually the show looked "cheaper" after this, but it was still okay. I rewatched some 2003 episodes and I'm surprised by the sets and extras...2005 definitely reeled that in. 

@dc11786 @Donna L. Bridges  at the tapes. Nowadays, shows almost hope you have tapes to generate some attention on social media. 

I enjoyed the younger scene around that time too, like Sandy, Tammy, Marina...

Jonathan didn't sit well with me. I know that he got a lot of recognition, but Tom Phelphry's acting and interpretation of the character was really obnoxious to me. Maybe that's what he was going for, but it was so manic at times. 

7 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Definitely. The storyline was promoted as a '3's Company' set up. At the time 3's Company was a smash hit so they were looking for some of that impact in having 3 singles sharing an apartment. Don't know if the casting and writing really came together though.

Now that you mention it, the setup definitely had a Three's Company feel. 

On 7/31/2023 at 7:03 PM, MontyB said:

I'm so glad Retro is airing 1980 episodes again Saturdays.  On this particular episode Viveca Strand is on the table getting a massage and I was thinking how high is that masseuse's hand going to go?

Speaking of 1980, where was the intent behind bringing on Darcy, Alan, and Brad? Do you think they were trying to freshen things up?

26 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

Was this during ConWest? EP Conboy & [ahem] *cough cough* "writer" Ellen Weston? If so, which co-HW was keeping the writing above the level of drowning?!! And, if it was a Shayne week, was it Marty West's Shayne? And had he pulled himself away from selling his wrestling tapes out of the trunk of his car? 

 

Yes, special thanks & kudos go to @Jason47 !! 

No, you're not at all wrong. Harley & Beth Ehlers were hugely popular. But, there are some people who dislike the entire Cooper clan & consider them interlopers.

Yep, Conboy and Ellen were involved. Both would only last a few more months by the time the above episode aired. Actually, Conboy walked off GL sometime in December 2003 and returned, but not for much longer. 

It was Marty West in the role of Shayne...what about wrestling tapes  

On 7/30/2023 at 12:11 AM, Joseph said:

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Where?  

So I was on a ratings spiral the other day and noticed an outlier week for GL in the W 18-49 rating for the week of December 29-2003 - Jan. 2, 2004.

GL scored an impressive 2.1 in the demo. What makes this impressive is that the last time GL scored a 2.1 was on the week of Jan. 14 2002 - almost a whole two years earlier. Also, January 2002, would be the last time GL would score a 2.0 or higher in the demo (besides the week of 2003/4 posted below). 

Furthermore, GL scored mostly between the range of 1.4 - 1.7 in the demo in 2002 and 2003. The week before positing a 2.1, it scored a 1.6 in the demo, so a significant .5 gain over the previous week. 

I remember bits of this week and not thinking much of it. I didn't find the character of Shayne well utilized in GL and don't even know if I was ever that invested. I also can't remember caring much for Marah and Jeffrey either, but I'm also quite forgetful. 

I'm curious on your takes on this. 

Also, credit to Jason47 for the ratings info.  

1 hour ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

I know that Harley Cooper has her detractors intellectually but emotionally as a huge fan I always do a double take, whiplash, reaction to hearing there's someone/s who is not totally in love with her!! 

I actually liked Harley. It wasn't until I joined this board that I heard pretty negative stuff about the character and actress. It made me wonder a bit if I was wrong. 

34 minutes ago, JoeCool said:

Restless was still strong in 1977. In July 1975 AMC lost its momentum when it was moved to 12:30PM from 1 for Ryan's Hope until January 1977 when it moved back to its 1PM slot then it expanded in April 1977. Agnes Nixon said that derailed AMC from getting to the Number 1 in the season rankings. She was upset about that. She had just sold AMC and OLTL to ABC in January 1975 for almost $10 million and then ABC made the change with RH which they did not own! Ryan's Hope was an awful lead-in to AMC.

It feels like a lot of the damage done to soaps in the 70s/early 80s came down to scheduling. Very poor decisions by execs which ultimately ended up destroying some great soaps. 

Not necessarily a favorite (but might be), but the first thing that came to mind was Sami on DAYS being slapped several times in the 90s.

1 hour ago, 1974mdp said:

Did we ever find out what the hell the red swam was about? I remember all the Corys just looking at it all the time and talking about what it could mean. Did they eventually just kind of drop it sort of how they did the music box Katherine left for Jill on Y&R?

It's interesting to note that within the 18-49 demo ratings AW did move up to the middle of the pack there for a while in the mid-90s. I liked a lot of what JFP did initially. The shows look became more modern, stories moved faster, and I even enjoyed the whole John and Felicia affair not because of any chemistry the two actors had, which I thought was lacking, but because of how it impacted so many different characters and forced people to take sides. And, it, of course, gave Sharlene that Emmy-winning material to play.

I wonder how much of this was aided by DAYS success around that time. DAYS saw a significant ratings jump in 95 and then spent most of 96 and 97 at the top in the 18-49 demo. 

Also to be noted, DAYS and AW are the only two soaps to maintain or gain in ratings from the 1994/5 season through the 1995/6 and 1996/7 season. A trend that was definitely not occurring with the other soaps which saw incredible drops. YR did go up a tenth in the 1995/6 season but then saw a significant drop the next season.  

She looks incredible.

On 7/29/2023 at 3:53 PM, watson71 said:

As we get more ratings posted, would this be the last time that AW would score a higher rating than DAYS?

In the 80s thread, AW rated higher than DAYS the week of Jan. 28, 1980.  There are also several weeks posted where AW tied or is only one tenth of ratings point below DAYS.

Edge of Night beating the entire NBC lineup and with only 81% clearance. 

Thank you for sharing this. It is a true delight. 

14 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

Well I happen to be one of the AW fans who believe the long-held fan lore that the affiliates hated the 90 minute format & thought it was the show's idea & blamed them for it & turned on them. Previously they'd been very fond of the show. So I count that as a large factor & actually say that it was the first nail in the coffin. Other times are perplexing to me because I felt the ratings didn't reflect the actual quality & seeming popularity of the show at that given time. And, I continue to contend that 90 minutes is just an awkward time amount. 

I feel like AW wasn't cancelled sooner because there was a lot of respect and care for it. AW had a terrific early run and was a ratings darling, garnering lots of fans and loyal viewers as well as those that cared for it for many years. However, by its first expansion it was starting to limp and by the second expansions' end it was in a catastrophic state. The numbers were truly awful. From the end of AW's 30 minute run (expansion to 60 minutes) to AW's retrun to 60 minutes (end of 90 minute episodes), it had lost 5 whole ratings points, going from a 9.7 to a 4.7 in a short period. Once it returned to 60 minutes, it saw a small boost which continued through the mid 80s, but by the end of the 80s it was back where it ended its 90 minute episodes. 

Needless to say that AW was more costly than the other soaps that were performing at the same level. With NBC never getting daytime quite right after the mid 70s, it probably felt more secure holding onto AW in its schedule than completely destroying what was left. I personally feel that AW was allowed to go on as long as it did because NBC just couldn't seem to get it right and because there was such love and care for it. 

TBH I feel like a lot of soaps beginning in the 90s probably went on longer than they would otherwise, because daytime execs didn't really know what to do with the changing daytime TV viewership. Loving, The City, Santa Barbara, Sunset Beach, PC were probably given more of a chance then they would have otherwise had because of this huge shift. 

I think too much emphasis is put on AW transitioning to a 90 minute format as the reason for its demise, but this change was the straw that ultimately broke AW's back. Days, ATWT, GL and AW all saw a bit of decline when they transitioned to hour long programs in the mid 70s. This could be for many factors - housewives not wanting to dedicate a whole hour when they were used to half that time, viewers switching to other soaps they had previously watched that their now extended soap was cutting into, viewer fatigue, transition hiccups as this was a new way of storytelling for writers who now needed to fill a whole hour, or any other number of reasons. 

As I mentioned previously, GL's expansion placed it in direct competition with AW. While it's expansion in 1977 may have caused a dip in ratings, by mid 78 and onward GL was picking up and had several weeks where it finished number 1 for the week. This competition against AW would only hurt it more as GH around the same time was experiencing a massive ratings boost. GH finished the 78/79 season with a nearly 2 point increase over 77/78 season. OLTL also saw a healthy increase in the same timeframe. All of these soaps competing directly against AW.  AW drops over 1 point. 

From 1979-81, GL, OLTL and GH are all on fire and continued to increase their numbers. Meanwhile, AW which was already struggling with stiff competition decided it was best to attempt a 90 minute program before fixing things at 60 mins. AW was in hot water before its expansion but those 90 minutes truly just destroyed it. It was confusing for viewers, it wasn't practical, and it was up against tough competition.