Vee

Maybe we just see something you don't.

Incidentally, the latest episode of the wonderful Telltale Games video game is out today! I'll be playing it tonight.

I can understand that, but that's something I think Tyrion simply would never have said of his own volition. He adored her.

But he did say those things to her to get her to leave just a couple episodes ago - that is what she was repeating back to him on the stand. It clearly hurt him to say it and crushed her to hear it.

I wouldn't mind differences being pointed out if most of them didn't either a) tread on spoiler territory or simply serve as more fodder for bitching. That's 90% of these posts. And I don't have a problem with Shae being on the stand. Whoever put her there put her there to bury Tyrion - and if it was Cersei, then that certainly included Sansa. If they were going to get her up there on the stand, they were going to get her to say what they wanted. It's not "sure, say whatever you want since you're mad at Tyrion." She chose to betray Tyrion - which I totally bought for her character, given her petulant, ridiculous attitude about their relationship for the last two [!@#$%^&*] years - but she didn't have a choice when it came to the scope of the thing. That's the way those kind of schemes work. She was clearly emotional and torn, and that was enough for me to illustrate her having mixed feelings about doing what she was doing (to both Tyrion and Sansa). I mean, in some ways the showrunners can't win for losing - if Shae was as cold, mercenary and throwaway a character as some are claiming she was in the books, you'd hear people saying, 'oh, it's misogyny, she's just a heartless whore used for sex scenes.' They try to flesh the character out while still fulfilling her same story function, they give her a heart and show that she's torn by what she's doing and then it becomes, 'Shae would never do that.' That's not fair, IMO. And yeah, fair is still a question even if it's the audience critiquing a show. The audience isn't by default right because they read the books or have a lot of passionate feelings about it. That doesn't trump anything.

Sunspear, they said three years ago when they cast Sibel Kekilli that they deliberately expanded her role because they were taken with the actress and her performance. This is not news or some new development. Everyone was praising them for it, I'm pretty sure the author praised them for it, and while I've often been tired of Shae and I have little sympathy for her bullshit on Sunday's episode I have always found Kekilli's performance exceptional. If you're really going to make an issue of Shae having a larger role now you might want to invest in a time machine. Most book fans I know have no problem separating the distinct narrative and choices of the show vs. the book - you're the only one I know who's this upset. And frankly, even if you are, you've had four seasons to be shocked and adjust or stop watching. The show is not going to suddenly snap back into doing things your way or following the letter of the text.

Yeah - in our world it would be messed up, in theirs it is a necessary responsibility. Like so many tough things on this show.

Because they know it on the TV show. Not the book. Also, it's not Book Shae. TV Shae was clearly in love with Tyrion and heartbroken and vengeful. I am tired of her period, but it's not like she was dropping the mask.

I loved tonight - I was glad they took it back to some of the quieter stories. The Theon/Ramsay stuff was disturbingly homoerotic; they walked the line but didn't go over it, because they didn't have to - the implication was enough. As I said, I thought Yara was going to get torn apart then and there. I can't say I'm surprised she gave up on him so fast. She may be the best of the Ironborn (that is, aside from the Theon that once was) but they're all kind of crazy white trash to me. I can't imagine where that story will go next but I find it fascinating. Loved everything with Mark Gatiss at the Iron Bank. Loved Davos's great pitch, loved the return of Salladhor Saan. He's the best. I can't imagine where Stannis thinks he'll get the manpower for this gambit, though. Daenerys is learning the same lesson little Bran had to learn when he took his turn having to rule Winterfell in Robb's stead - I was glad she did the right thing for the noble, as opposed to the most myopically self-righteous thing, which would've given her a little thrill but would have had no point. I actually find it fascinating watching her learn to rule, in a chair - something we have been told again and again many others did not know how to do, and something a little boy took to quicker than her. But she's getting there. Interesting to see the Small Council finally taking more notice of her, though not enough IMO. And the Varys/Oberyn scene was so wonderful - IMO Varys is really the quieter soul of the show, along with a number of others. GOT has many elements of soap in it, but there ain't nothin' soapier than a big crazy trial. And that was big and crazy and very satisfying. I almost knew Tyrion was going to invoke trial by combat - almost, but not quite, there was a hint of something in the back of my mind, nagging at me, a hunch, but I couldn't figure out what - and then, boom! Well, it beats Tywin's otherwise shrewd plan. And I loved Tyrion's Jennifer Holliday speech. Great show. Did I miss anything?

Yara's really a supporting player at best on the show. I did like seeing her, though. I don't think she gave up because she was scared, and I don't think most people think that either. It was an impossible situation; it's not that Theon is dead so much as she could not have gotten out of there alive with him. That was a gripping moment - I thought it might have been curtains for her then and there.

Thanks for that. Organic foods! Tom and Irna were ahead of their time for hipster Brooklyn.

I think it was more to show his depravity - he seemed to get off on being choked and manhandled. And it fulfilled HBO's usual quota.

I just really don't think the show is trying to get people "hot and bothered" over Ramsay Snow. I didn't see that tonight. Yes, he's a physically attractive man, yes, he is a man of excess, like a lot of other horrible (or not so horrible) people on the show - he likes sex. His having a sex scene is not an indication that the show intends for a sadistic psychopath - which is how they've presented him as onscreen, even subverting his sexuality by pairing it with vicious violence in the same scene - to be presented as an object of adoration. And just because he may have fans who treat him as such does not mean the show specifically engineered them, or that they're responsible for them. Virtually any character on any popular show on television has those fans, whether they're 'good' or 'evil' characters. It's unavoidable and in this instance I don't think GOT is expected to be held responsible for anyone who lusts after Rheon or Ramsay Snow, anymore than any show has fans of any horrible villain. You can't let art be dictated by an audience, but you also can't let your potential expectation of an audience mold the art. I also don't think that showing torture is the same as "torture porn", but that's a whole other thesis.

Jerry Lacy! Good lord. Who were Liz and Paul and what was the story? Did any story other than Kim take off?

All I know about the character is Irna was mad at the actress for going nude in Lenny and she died falling up the stairs. That and Kim arriving - by most accounts, a character very close to Irna's ideal vision of herself - is the most I know of the era. I don't know when Jennifer was brought in or by who, or whether the move away from Bob and Kim was her idea or someone else's. I don't know what kind of sea changes she made.

I find the discussion of Phillips's rough second stint fascinating - what did she regress the show from? What strides did she make? Those second go-rounds with titans of the industry, be they showrunners in daytime or primetime, are always interesting, and often fraught with peril.

I haven't, no. That was one weird period. I think they loved Addie, but she fell through the cracks, probably for a variety of reasons.

One of the best things Ron Carlivati ever did at OLTL was something I'd had percolating in my mind for a few years: Make Addie Cramer well. He did it, and he did with style - Pamela Payton-Wright's sane Addie burst back onto the scene as a vibrant, bubbly libertine dressed to the nines. She was wonderful. They didn't use her nearly as much after the writer's strike of 2008 ended - they had planned for David Chisum's Miles Laurence to be revealed as Addie's son and Blair's brother just before the strike hit - but before the scabs took over, they penned one of the best scenes Dorian and Addie ever had, or ever will have, around 7:20 in this clip, where Addie cuts to the core about Dorian's issues with Viki. And I thought you weren't paying attention. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH--HYpR-VE

Yeah, I think it's ridiculous to say only Doug Marland cared about the Quartermaines - whether or not we liked various storylines, they were frontburner for most of the next twenty years. They were part of GH's bread and butter for multiple regimes - Alan and Monica, Susan Moore, Edward's son, Lila's lover, you name it. And Labine, while she told different stories, hardly disliked them either. It's not about whether you or I liked the storyline - the fact is they played them heavy for decades. Multiple [!@#$%^&*] regimes didn't do that out of masochism or seething resentment. If they had wanted to dump them it would not have been difficult to do just as had been done to the Bauers, etc. throughout the '80s on other shows like GL.

The problem is that he'd probably bring Melisandre and start roasting everyone alive. He's in too deep with her and on some level he knows it.

I think Melisandre cares only up to a point - if she was just a blind zealot she would not have told him to spare Davos's life, told him they would need him. But I believe her first loyalty is to her Red God, or perhaps just to herself, she's that hard to read for me. If at some point any of them are surplus to requirements, I think she'd tell Stannis (or his wife) to kill them. I think if Shireen continues to defy her thinking it might yet be the same. I don't think the king Melisandre wants Stannis to be is anywhere near the one Davos wants him to be. I'm not sure Stannis has any idea what kind of king he would want to be, other than that it is supposed to be his throne to rule. IMO Davos and Melisandre are ultimately at cross-purposes and they've tried to kill each other before, but right now they are poised at either end of a very troubled man and he needs them both for whatever Melisandre says is coming. Once that's done I think all bets are off - Davos wants her gone, Melisandre will want him gone again.

I think he obviously wants that from her; their sexual affair was the foundation stone of their relationship. Beautiful woman comes to a lonely second-son lord on Dragonstone with a deformed child and an ill wife, promises him wealth and power and gives him herself. She started by seducing him, then promised him glory if he converted to her god and followed her counsel to victory. I've never seen him as sexless - I think his sexual passion for Melisandre was one of his only outlets for release from the deeply rigid man he is, and that was what led to her taking such control over his kingdom. She made him feel alive, gave him hope for glory and triumph outside his depressing everyday life on that rocky shore, so that was her way in. It's an old story we see everyday. Eventually, Melisandre's influence over Stannis and the Baratheons of Dragonstone became so pervasive that they started burning half their people on pyres while his admittedly already-unstable wife completely converted to the cause and urged on the affair. In a way it's a Jim Jones/Jonestown setup - people urging their spouses to cheat so long as it's with the cult leader. You could tell Stannis was dismayed by Selyse growing even more deranged and taking to the cause last season. On the one hand he has come to believe in Melisandre and her faith, he's infatuated with her, he wants what she offers him for the future - but on the other he was clearly disappointed that Selyse's indoctrination denied him some other vantage point from her all-consuming faith. Davos basically told him he was looking for a way out and I think that's both true and not true. Now Davos is the only other vantage point Stannis has, the only true friend outside of Melisandre and her influence.

No, you're right; Davos is pretty much the only sane voice of reason on those premises. He appeals to Stannis's better nature, and Melisandre seems to not be completely power-mad as she's responsible for his still being alive and in play. And I do love Liam Cunningham, I have since Prime Suspect 6 and Dog Soldiers - but I especially love him with the kid who plays Shireen. The sad, and fascinating thing is that Melisandre's religious mania (as well as his sexual infatuation with her, as his mistress) is the major force powering Stannis's new resolve in the world - this whole thing came out of a kind of a midlife crisis which has eaten his whole life and almost surely helped drive his wife mad as she became a part of it (something which you can tell Stannis wasn't thrilled about). If he could get out from under the constant setting people on fire and the visions and all that and stick with his own head and his less hidebound instincts, which Davos is pretty much his proxy for, this whole effort might not seem so doomed to me. I root for the horribly damaged Dragonstone family (plus Davos) because they might as well be in a really trippy Sam Mendes domestic drama.

How deep did Littlefinger even look at the crown's funds? Given everything we now know he's done, it seems unlikely he could've missed the fact that the Lannisters are now just another old money Wall Street firm - broke, even though they're supposed to be the ones propping up the broke crown. Surely he's thought to do something about it, unless he's as shallow about this aspect of conquering as some of the theory he espoused to Varys, and so he missed it and all he bothered with was skimming the gold. Stannis is the one making the smart move going for the money, because even Tywin doesn't think he can take the Iron Bank. Money is what can get anyone - they got Al Capone for tax evasion, remember. And Stannis is nothing if not a deeply frustrated (professionally, sexually and otherwise) public servant. Not that I think it will put him on the throne - I think Stannis and his entire crew are far too dysfunctional and backwards for that - but it's a smart play.

I didn't find it anticlimactic - I was [!@#$%^&*] shocked, and so was just about every comment I've seen elsewhere.