I remember how happy many were here when they first heard Y&R was going to do gay storylines. I knew from the beginning this would be a huge flop and disappointment, and alas, it has.

I am asking genuinely. Should one start complaining right away?

No, one should wait until they're sure there's something to complain about. A recent example from last week was Collen going to visit Summer at the hospital. Some posted on here that they couldn't believe she was doing that instead of checking on her best friend Lily. And the very next day, Colleen has a scene where she wonders why Lily isn't returning her calls since she returned to town. Some times the writers do know what they're doing when you give them the benefit of the doubt.

There was a second recent example along those lines but I can't remember it for the life of me now.

And, to go further back, some were complaining about how fake Kitty looked in his first scenes...

Fortunately, I think most of the "complaining" has been about the long-term trends on this show, or stories being botched from almost their inceptions. Stuff like characterization, overall tone, pacing, and execution have also been repeated topics of complaints in regards to this show.

The day to day writing is of course the hardest, as some things could be acknowledged or corrected sooner, rather than later.

But, eh, everyone is a critic.

Edited July 20, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

Oh, shut up! When did you become so nice? This is what we were hoping for, Alvin!

Anyway... Mark... And brimike... First, let's scratch the self-fulfilling prophecy that soaps will die. They will, but let's disregard that for a moment. Do you believe that when you see something is wrong with the show, you should start firing at it right away and not wait gazillion years to say something? I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you both were very aware of the problems many of us here are blabbering about for what seems like ages, but for some peculiar reason you've both decided to condone it, rationalise it, tolerate it... Hoping, perhaps, that this is just a temporary drop in quality and that Maria, the goddess of historigasms, will, there is no doubt about it, write the fabulous soap everyone has been waiting for. This is even weirder knowing that Mark agrees that if you watch cr*p, you make it last longer, almost approve of it.

Because two months more of tolerating Maria & Co. mean not two months more of crap, but perhaps 8 months worth of sh!t. You know that things aren't linear in the world of soaps. So perhaps if these drums had more support two months ago, and I know this might seem juvenile, just perhaps something might have happened by now. Instead drum-beaters were depicted as mentally challenged crazy people who were probably blind too not realizing the greatness of Maria's vision.

I am asking genuinely. Should one start complaining right away?

Well, first of all - you're right. Of course I saw the beginning signs of problems months ago, but I see beginning signs of problems on all soaps across the board - and sometimes they do fix themselves, and other times they don't. These shows are cyclical. When Carlivati started writing time travel storylines on OLTL, I cringed and thought "We're in trouble". But I also figured I'd give it a few months, see if it was just a dumb idea that would eventually fix itself. Sadly, we went right into the Tarty story at full-force. But again - I never called for Ron's firing. I just wanted him to wise up and stop writing stories that were so insulting. I'm a firm believer that every head writer is flawed and we're never going to be totally happy with a show - but sometimes when things start to take a turn for the worse, I remind myself that at the time, nobody was thinking "I'm writing crap." And when it all goes wrong, chances are the writing and producing teams see it as well. I like to think they're in a constant state of evolution, trying to figure out what's going right and what's going wrong. Unlike others, I truly don't think anyone at Y&R is thinking "Screw the haters, we're writing BRILLIANT STORYLINES, and they're just too dumb to know". I think they probably see the same problems many of us do.

I never accused anybody of being a mentally challeneged crazy person for not liking the show, so I don't know where that's coming from. Hell, I still think DOOL is crap, but its fans love it, and I would never EVER be so arrogant as to ask one of them "Why do you love it? Are you stupid?! It's crap!" Because it's all subjective. What is one (wo)man's pain is another (wo)man's pleasure.

No, one should wait until they're sure there's something to complain about. A recent example from last week was Collen going to visit Summer at the hospital. Some posted on here that they couldn't believe she was doing that instead of checking on her best friend Lily. And the very next day, Colleen has a scene where she wonders why Lily isn't returning her calls since she returned to town. Some times the writers do know what they're doing when you give them the benefit of the doubt.

There was a second recent example along those lines but I can't remember it for the life of me now.

And, to go further back, some were complaining about how fake Kitty looked in his first scenes...

Great point - the same thing happened when Summer was hospitalized. Everybody was freaking out on the message boards that Victor and Nikki weren't there - and sure enough, in the next episode, Victor and Nikki showed up and were on every day after that.

Jamey over at DC has a great write-up regarding Y&R's problems:

http://daytimeconfidential.com/2009/07/20/auntie-ri-ri-hits-a-wall-storyline-malfunction-on-yr

Jamey over at DC has a great write-up regarding Y&R's problems:

http://daytimeconfid...lfunction-on-yr

Thanks for this... most of it is a little too subjective, but he is right about how bad the Phillip plot is. Those scenes were son meets father were just amazingly bad. There are NO words to describe how bad.

Btw, wasn't the Jill/Kay thing an idea of Smith's?

Edited July 20, 200916 yr by YRBB

Great point - the same thing happened when Summer was hospitalized. Everybody was freaking out on the message boards that Victor and Nikki weren't there - and sure enough, in the next episode, Victor and Nikki showed up and were on every day after that.

Yeah, but people also hated Summer in the hospital because what was the use of it? Why would Patty Jane do this to an innocent child to keep Phyllis away from Jack, when Sharon is a much bigger threat to her than Phyllis is? Also, why does a show with so much victimization and poorly defined women has to have a psycho torture a little girl? Where's the redeeming quality in that?

Again, I think most of the criticism leveled at this show has been about the problematic long-term trends and damage being done, not simply the day to day stuff.

Edited July 20, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

Yeah, but people also hated Summer in the hospital because what was the use of it? Why would Patty Jane do this to an innocent child to keep Phyllis away from Jack, when Sharon is a much bigger threat to her than Phyllis is? Also, why does a show with so much victimization and poorly defined women has to have a psycho torture a little girl? Where's the redeeming quality in that?

Again, I think most of the criticism leveled at this show has been about the problematic long-term trends and damage being done, not simply the day to day stuff.

Yeah, I know. I was just responding to Scryber's post, that's all.

Thanks for this... most of it is a little too subjective, but he is right about how bad the Phillip plot is. Those scenes were son meets father were just amazingly bad. There are NO words to describe how bad.

Btw, wasn't the Jill/Kay thing an idea of Smith's?

It was Smith, and this Phillip III story is definitely NOT Y&R's only problem right now.

I had some problems with Alden and Smith, but I never fully hated their show to the extent I hated it during LML and now.

I know at this point I'd take Smith back in a heartbeat.

Yeah, I know. I was just responding to Scryber's post, that's all.

I know, but sometimes I feel as if those who level criticism at this show are being accused of doing it for the sake of doing it and for the sake of being negative. I realize the day to day criticism could be corrected very fast, but I think the general fan dissatisfaction over the Summer in the hospital mess had to do with much more than who was present at the hospital.

Maybe I'm just interpreting things in the wrong way, but so many of us are passionate about these shows that we can't help but have a strong reaction when we perceive long-term damage is being done to it.

I know, but sometimes I feel as if those who level criticism at this show are being accused of doing it for the sake of doing it and for the sake of being negative. I realize the day to day criticism could be corrected very fast, but I think the general fan dissatisfaction over the Summer in the hospital mess had to do with much more than who was present at the hospital.

Maybe I'm just interpreting things in the wrong way, but so many of us are passionate about these shows that we can't help but have a strong reaction when we perceive long-term damage is being done to it.

Well, there are a few different things going on. Like you've said many times, there seems to be a change in the long-term vision of the show that longtime Y&R fans are not happy about. That's definitely an MAB issue, and ONLY an MAB issue.

Then there's the second tier - issues with the stories in a six/eight/twelve-week span. I attribute this to the head writing team. Things like the storyline pacing in a two/three-month period.

Then there's the third tier - issues like this past Friday's episode, and how disappointed everyone was in it. That can be attributed to everyone from MAB all the way down to the script writer.

You've been talking about top-tier problems for awhile. I don't think you're being "negative" for talking about it. I think you step back and have a perspective that makes a lot of sense.

Right now I find the third tier to be pretty all right (which is why I still have positive things to say in the episode discussion thread). I'm glad this thread is here because it gives us a place to talk about the bigger picture - the top and second tiers, if you will. Scryber was referencing post-ers who complain about something that's going to be addressed an episode or two later. I'm not saying that's the ONLY problem Y&R has. Just that a "third tier" problem like that is usually something that's addressed pretty quickly. And sometimes people jump the gun in complaining when if they just wait one or two episodes, they'll probably have it dealt with.

The problems you're talking about - 1st and 2nd tier? They're definitely not something that can be addressed in the short term. They're a whole 'nother story. But I don't think you're just being negative for the sake of being negative. You've definitely given very clear, very concise, very rational reasons for the issues you have with the top-tier of the show.

It was Smith, and this Phillip III story is definitely NOT Y&R's only problem right now.

Do you mean that's what the writer implied in his article, or did I come off as saying that's the only thing wrong right now? I was definitely not implying that!

Edited July 20, 200916 yr by YRBB

Wow, you've devised a whole three-tier system, brimike.

When you break it down in that way, I agree, there are various levels of view dissatisfaction with various departments of that tier system.

Other than some crazy fanbases, I think we all criticize the show with the best of intentions.

Do you mean that's what the writer implied in his article, or did I come off as saying that's the only thing wrong right now? I was definitely not implying that!

No, I was just stating that and the writer of the article seemed to focus majorly on the Phillip III story, though he touched a bit on other problems.

Wow, you've devised a whole three-tier system, brimike.

When you break it down in that way, I agree, there are various levels of view dissatisfaction with various departments of that tier system.

Other than some crazy fanbases, I think we all criticize the show with the best of intentions.

LMAO!!!!! I think constructive criticism is always made with the best of intentions.

I also feel like you saw Top Tier problems much sooner than everybody else did, A. In March, everyone else was happy with 2nd Tier and 3rd Tier. But you saw the Top Tier problems. I think many fans who are critical now, didn't get that way until the problems hit the "Third Tier" level, around June.

Peyton Axioms and Brimike Tiers. Who says we aren't analytical here on SON? :D