And when have these very same people start giving a damn about the wroking people even when their taxes were lowered 7 years ago? They have had more tax return dollars put in their pockets, and they are STILL laying off and outsourcing jobs. But now working people are supposed to care that they will have to receive higher taxes after screwing us all these years?

once again, I don't feel sorry for them.

Here's a real life example. My boss owns a "small" business. We employ about 300 employees currently up by about 50 employees during those seven years of lowered corporate taxes. He expanded his business in three new markets and the company revenue grew which enabled us to import more product, open a new warehouse, and expand into new territory. Our business is dependant on the housing market and the global market because we import so times have been tighter. It is a GLOBAL economic issue not just an American one and my boss is now operating in the red over the last two quarters. He refused to downsize his employees because he DOES care about his employees and he has taken money out of his own pocket to cover the difference to get him through the downturn. However, he won't be able to do that should his corporate taxes increase and he will be FORCED to start letting people go.

These taxes affect more than just the big corporations in the country- the Exxons, the GM Motor Plants. Nearly half of the American work force works for firms the size of my company and they will be deeply and negatively affected by bearing a larger part of the tax burden. The larger companies will raise their prices to cover the cost of higher corporate taxes because that's the way that works. Businesses do not pay taxes. People pay taxes. Consumers pay taxes. Profits will be lowered in the larger corporations but that ultimately affects everyone's 401(k) and retirement programs.

I do feel sorry for business owners struggling in an inflationary global market.

So Warren Buffet, who is worth $56 biliion dollars, should pay the exact same amount of taxes as someone working 3 jobs and is being taxed to death? That is what you are saying?

Some people do seriously believe in a flat tax option and it's not as crazy as you make it sound. It's been used before instead of a graduated rate scale. It means that Warren Buffett who is worth $56 billion dollars would pay the same tax RATE as everyone else on income. Surely the average American would understand that doesn't mean that he pays the same tax dollar as everyone else. And his WORTH is not taxed just like your worth is not taxed as the system currently stands. Your income is taxed. So if Warren already paid taxes on that money as it was earned and if for some bizarre reason it wasn't invested where he earned interest income on that money during the last tax year, he would not owe any additional tax on his $56 billion dollars. His tax bill would be $0 if he had $0 income.

Honestly, the Fair Tax is my preffered tax plan.

I stated who I felt was the moderate Republicans to me.

McCain is very consevative, IMO, as is Huckabee. Ok?

IA. McCain is a very strong fiscal conservative.

You were talking about the RR. So, do you feel McCain is an advocate of the religious right?

And when have these very same people start giving a damn about the wroking people even when their taxes were lowered 7 years ago? They have had more tax return dollars put in their pockets, and they are STILL laying off and outsourcing jobs. But now working people are supposed to care that they will have to receive higher taxes after screwing us all these years?

once again, I don't feel sorry for them.

So Warren Buffet, who is worth $56 biliion dollars, should pay the exact same amount of taxes as someone working 3 jobs and is being taxed to death? That is what you are saying?

Roman, when taxes were lowered, they hired more people. They invested in their businesses, and that means hiring more people. With more money, you grow your business so that you can make more money... when you grow your business, it takes more people to run it. That's just simple high school economics. I find it interesting that the richest amongst us, our friends in Hollywood, most often float to the left in politics... and I think I've figured out why... It is easy to be a generous philanthropist when you only work and travel half the year and don't have the responsibility of managing the affairs and employees of a large business, etc.

As for outsourcing... I live in California and the tax burden here is such that the bottom line is very clear -- it is cheaper to go elsewhere, especially out of the country, to make budget and keep that profit margin viable. I have a suspicion that this is the same story in many other states.

As for someone like Warren Buffet, I absolutely agree with you he should pay his fair share. As should Oprah and all our friends in Hollywood. And you can bet, while campaigning for the left, they are fully taking adavantage of any number of loopholes available exclusively to the rich. Fair? No. But it is easy to be a generous philanthropist when you only work and travel half the year and don't have the responsibility of managing the affairs and employees of a large business, etc.

We forget that tax incentives are doled out to small business... that's great, but you can't hit them on the backside after they open shop with a large tax burden. Again, simple economics 101. I would NEVER attempt to open a business here in Caleeforneeayy. Those that do are hearty individuals -- and, yes, they need a huge financial cache behind them if they hope to be even remotely successful.

Now, call me mean and hateful and an isolationist... but I don't think we'd be having this discussion if America stopped throwing money hand over fist to everyone else all over the world. We have people who need help here in America... we have our share of old, sick, and homeless, etc. I personally feel we should stop pissing off hard-earned American money to all corners of the world. We're TOO helpful... and to countries and people who don't WANT OUR HELP. Every President, both Repulican and Democrat, have attempted to settle disputes with cash. It is such a massive failure of policy... Funding the Palestinians AND the Israelis at the same time? Stupid policy and we've done it for decades. Keep that cash here and feed the poor. We COULD have wonderful universal health care coverage... QUALITY medical care... if we would stop giving it all away!

Here's a real life example. My boss owns a "small" business. We employ about 300 employees currently up by about 50 employees during those seven years of lowered corporate taxes. He expanded his business in three new markets and the company revenue grew which enabled us to import more product, open a new warehouse, and expand into new territory. Our business is dependant on the housing market and the global market because we import so times have been tighter. It is a GLOBAL economic issue not just an American one and my boss is now operating in the red over the last two quarters. He refused to downsize his employees because he DOES care about his employees and he has taken money out of his own pocket to cover the difference to get him through the downturn. However, he won't be able to do that should his corporate taxes increase and he will be FORCED to start letting people go.

These taxes affect more than just the big corporations in the country- the Exxons, the GM Motor Plants. Nearly half of the American work force works for firms the size of my company and they will be deeply and negatively affected by bearing a larger part of the tax burden. The larger companies will raise their prices to cover the cost of higher corporate taxes because that's the way that works. Businesses do not pay taxes. People pay taxes. Consumers pay taxes. Profits will be lowered in the larger corporations but that ultimately affects everyone's 401(k) and retirement programs.

I do feel sorry for business owners struggling in an inflationary global market.

Some people do seriously believe in a flat tax option and it's not as crazy as you make it sound. It's been used before instead of a graduated rate scale. It means that Warren Buffett who is worth $56 billion dollars would pay the same tax RATE as everyone else on income. Surely the average American would understand that doesn't mean that he pays the same tax dollar as everyone else. And his WORTH is not taxed just like your worth is not taxed as the system currently stands. Your income is taxed. So if Warren already paid taxes on that money as it was earned and if for some bizarre reason it wasn't invested where he earned interest income on that money during the last tax year, he would not owe any additional tax on his $56 billion dollars. His tax bill would be $0 if he had $0 income.

Honestly, the Fair Tax is my preffered tax plan.

And that is for you. I'm not chaging my mind. Especially when the Ford plant in my neiborhood closed earlier this year and put 1,500 workers out of jobs.......after it was reported onthe local news that they state and federal government had given them huge tax breaks and the CEO of this particular plant enjoy a HUGE pay bonus for closing the plant.

Here's a real life example. My boss owns a "small" business. We employ about 300 employees currently up by about 50 employees during those seven years of lowered corporate taxes. He expanded his business in three new markets and the company revenue grew which enabled us to import more product, open a new warehouse, and expand into new territory. Our business is dependant on the housing market and the global market because we import so times have been tighter. It is a GLOBAL economic issue not just an American one and my boss is now operating in the red over the last two quarters. He refused to downsize his employees because he DOES care about his employees and he has taken money out of his own pocket to cover the difference to get him through the downturn. However, he won't be able to do that should his corporate taxes increase and he will be FORCED to start letting people go.

These taxes affect more than just the big corporations in the country- the Exxons, the GM Motor Plants. Nearly half of the American work force works for firms the size of my company and they will be deeply and negatively affected by bearing a larger part of the tax burden. The larger companies will raise their prices to cover the cost of higher corporate taxes because that's the way that works. Businesses do not pay taxes. People pay taxes. Consumers pay taxes. Profits will be lowered in the larger corporations but that ultimately affects everyone's 401(k) and retirement programs.

Beautiful example! It is easy to say that you dont care if people making over $250,000 are taxed more, but when you understand that many many more people do, than most realize, then it hits home.

Honestly, the Fair Tax is my preffered tax plan.

You are my new best friend! Do you ever listen to Boortz?

And that is for you. I'm not chaging my mind. Especially when the Ford plant in my neiborhood closed earlier this year and put 1,500 workers out of jobs.......after it was reported onthe local news that they state and federal government had given them huge tax breaks and the CEO of this particular plant enjoy a HUGE pay bonus for closing the plant.

Maybe if the Democrats would let us drill, then gas prices would go down and people will buy more Fords.

BTW they were trying to ease the pain of the consumer and Ford by giving the huge tax breaks to keep it from happening in other places.

Edited September 6, 200817 yr by Casey008

The RR and the ultra-right wing of the party have it in their control. More mainstream Republicans, like Lincoln Chaffey and the Governator are not at the top oreven near the top of the leadership of the party. Hell, I don't even think GWB is a ultra conservative. I think he's a good guy outside of the presidency.........he's just a beyond-lousy president whose policies and those of his party helped lead us to where we are now.

Roman, I agree with you on W. But we disagree on the cause of W's self-destruction. In my opinion, his domestic policies have veered decidedly AWAY from the party platform. He hasn't vetoed nearly enough bills coming out of Congress, allowing to much money to flow out. While I believe lessening the tax burden is the right thing to do, you just can't do it while allowing through every high-dollar bill Congress sends over. Big failure in fiscal policy. Now, I don't believe John McCain will do that, which is why I don't buy the entire "four more years of the same" argument. W's party platform is AGAINST that sort of spending, so why he departed from it is a mystery to me.

And there are other social-type domestic issues that he seemed to move either closer to the middle or flat-out to the left... and these issues have been costly to America. W's failure to resolve the immigration issue has cost us big time. Interestingly, the soft economy has done more to help that issue than anything any politician has done... pretty ironic I think.

As for Arnold -- speaking as a Californian -- I can't NOT like him. I mean... he's the Terminator and all... but he isn't a Republican. I'm not sure what the hell he is. My feeling is that he hasn't been particularly remarkable as a Governor, or particularly horrible, either. The real problem in California is the State Legislature... it's an absolute joke and there has been no political check and balance there in years. A Democratic lock on power in the state's legislative branch has not done California any favors... one party in complete control is always a failure. They're so screwed up, we're STILL months past with a state budget -- it's utter foolishness.

Maybe if the Democrats would let us drill, then gas prices would go down and people will buy more Fords.

BTW they were trying to ease the pain of the consumer and Ford by giving the huge tax breaks.

1. Maybe if the Republicans would stop sending our tax dollars to rebuild Iraq, spending money on pork projects while raising the working people's taxes, we would have money to buy a overpriced American car that will break down in 3 years.

2. Don't tell me one thing about what is happening in my county with this plant. Try telling that to 1,500 people who now have to figure out what they are going to do because this comapny felt their tax breaks and profits were more important than people who showed up to work and busted their ass for a company that screwed them in the end.

I wonder when the working man and woman in this country will stop taking it up the ass for Big Business while that stay and keep getting richer?

And that is for you. I'm not chaging my mind. Especially when the Ford plant in my neiborhood closed earlier this year and put 1,500 workers out of jobs.......after it was reported onthe local news that they state and federal government had given them huge tax breaks and the CEO of this particular plant enjoy a HUGE pay bonus for closing the plant.

So without the tax cuts which were put in place to keep the doors open, when do you think the plant would have closed? Because close it would have and those families would have been in crisis earlier rather than later. The CEO of that plant is an idiot and his mismanagement caused the closing of those doors. The government did what it could to help the families by offering the tax cuts to the business but the US government cannot make every single business make fiscally sound financial decisions once they give them the opportunity to help themselves. Ultimately the company has the fate of its employees in its hands. Ford has itself and their policies to blame for making poor decisions. That's on the company who obviously didn't care enough for their employees to make a positive change when given the opportunity. Ford is responsible for that since they chose to give the money to the CEO for non work instead of using the money for the blood,sweat and tears of the people that did the work.

Good will out is a saying around here. Ford did it to themselves but I'm sure there are a lot of businesses on a smaller scale that have wisely grown businesses and created jobs by using their opportunities wisely and working within the framework of a good buisness plan.

1. Maybe if the Republicans would stop sending our tax dollars to rebuild Iraq, spending money on pork projects while raising the working people's taxes, we would have money to buy a overpriced American car that will break down in 3 years.

2. Don't tell me one thing about what is happening in my county with this plant. Try telling that to 1,500 people who now have to figure out what they are going to do because this comapny felt their tax breaks and profits were more important than people who showed up to work and busted their ass for a company that screwed them in the end.

I wonder when the working man and woman in this country will stop taking it up the ass for Big Business while that stay and keep getting richer?

I will tell the workers how I believe. Only if you try telling those workers (that you support) that they build a car that will break down in three years.

Roman, I agree with you on W. But we disagree on the cause of W's self-destruction. In my opinion, his domestic policies have veered decidedly AWAY from the party platform. He hasn't vetoed nearly enough bills coming out of Congress, allowing to much money to flow out. While I believe lessening the tax burden is the right thing to do, you just can't do it while allowing through every high-dollar bill Congress sends over. Big failure in fiscal policy. Now, I don't believe John McCain will do that, which is why I don't buy the entire "four more years of the same" argument. W's party platform is AGAINST that sort of spending, so why he departed from it is a mystery to me.

And there are other social-type domestic issues that he seemed to move either closer to the middle or flat-out to the left... and these issues have been costly to America. W's failure to resolve the immigration issue has cost us big time. Interestingly, the soft economy has done more to help that issue than anything any politician has done... pretty ironic I think.

As for Arnold -- speaking as a Californian -- I can't NOT like him. I mean... he's the Terminator and all... but he isn't a Republican. I'm not sure what the hell he is. My feeling is that he hasn't been particularly remarkable as a Governor, or particularly horrible, either. The real problem in California is the State Legislature... it's an absolute joke and there has been no political check and balance there in years. A Democratic lock on power in the state's legislative branch has not done California any favors... one party in complete control is always a failure. They're so screwed up, we're STILL months past with a state budget -- it's utter foolishness.

See, my problem with W. and the Republican-led Congress (at the time) was that all these pork projects and huge spending bills came out on their watch. I just think it doesn't make one look all that responsible when a party says they are not for big government and for controlled spending........and then the deficit rises through the roof on their watch. Now, by no means is all of that on them, and I feel I can say this to you, because you are one that I may disagree with who seems to actually be listening to what I and others are saying. For that I thank you very much.

Now, the Democrats have not done any better since they have been in control, and when they were not, they did nothing to stop the out-of-control spending. So, we just may agree on that. There is blame on both sides.

I will tell the workers how I believe. Only if you try telling those workers (that you support) that they build a car that will break down in three years.

Wow.

It's the worker's fault the plant moved? Is that what you are saying?

See, my problem with W. and the Republican-led Congress (at the time) was that all these pork projects and huge spending bills came out on their watch. I just think it doesn't make one look all that responsible when a party says they are not for big government and for controlled spending........and then the deficit rises through the roof on their watch. Now, by no means is all of that on them, and I feel I can say this to you, because you are one that I may disagree with who seems to actually be listening to what I and others are saying. For that I thank you very much.

Now, the Democrats have not done any better since they have been in control, and when they were not, they did nothing to stop the out-of-control spending. So, we just may agree on that. There is blame on both sides.

Coming back to the topic of this thread, based on John McCain's plan he will do a better job in curbing the spending than Obama.

Beautiful example! It is easy to say that you dont care if people making over $250,000 are taxed more, but when you understand that many many more people do, than most realize, then it hits home.

You are my new best friend! Do you ever listen to Boortz?

hehe...honestly I listen to sports talk radio most of the day...LOL...but yes, I have listened to Boortz on occasion.

I'm a 680 The Fan girl!

Coming back to the topic of this thread, based on John McCain's plan he will do a better job in curbing the spending than Obama.

I think McCain will make it much worse.

Edited September 6, 200817 yr by Roman