chrisml

14 hours ago, j swift said:

This is the stuff that fascinates me when we look back at the history of the soaps.

I didn't mean to start a discussion about the choice to kill off Maureen, (with predictably regurgitated opinions of JFP).  What I am interested in is the context of how the history played out for the audience at home.  Because when I see one of those "this day in soap history" articles I am constantly amazed at how many crucial events occurred on some random Friday in March.

I don't think viewers at the time think of these events the way we do because we have history on our side.  I don't think many GL fans cared about the SB cancellation so there would be little need to counterprogram against the last days of SB. Would a SB viewer who continued to watch through the Rauch/Long era really stop watching the end of SB to see Maureen die? Was there overlap between SB and GL viewers considering how difficult it would be at the time to watch both shows? The SB viewers certainly did not flock to GL after its cancellation even when Marcy Walker was brought on the show.

The Robert Calhoun tenure was highly underrated. I know this was a thread a while back, but I also feel that JFP gets too much credit for turning around GL when GL was in good shape despite what she has said in interviews.

JFP likes stunts. She likes killing off or attacking women on her shows. In her world, women are expendable if it means paying for a male actor. She wanted Justin Deas, and looked for ways to free up money. If Maureen's death lured SB viewers away, it was a bonus. I remember Marcy Walker talking about how she felt JFP used her on GL to keep her (JFP's) job. It wouldn't surprise if the whole point of Maureen's death was to keep her employed by bringing on Justin Deas and it had nothing to do with SB or GH.

Thank you for all the comments about AW and the major mistakes made with the show. On a storytelling note, I think AW had a similar problem to SB from 1987 on. They did not have long-term storylines planned out so that so many storylines just fizzled out (Dawn's HIV, The Red Swan, Mary's return, Cass/Rex, the strangler, MJ's past, Nicole, etc.). I also think a big mistake was getting rid of Petronia Paley and not doing much with Jane Cameron's Nancy. There was so much potential during these years, but it felt as if the writers or execs just didn't care to follow through with anything. They just threw anything at the wall in the hopes it would work. As much as I liked aspects of Swajeski's writing, she was not great at pacing and follow through either. I remember it annoyed me that she would end an episode with a cliffhanger, and then it would take another three episodes to go back and resolve the cliffhanger.

I'm curious. For those with a wider knowledge of AW (my knowledge extends vaguely to the MJ hooker storyline and beyond), what do you think were the major mistakes that were made with AW? I always felt that AW would right itself and then there would be an idiotic mistake that would derail everything.

Is the It's Real Good TV app the same one that used to show the doctors? I remember not being able to use it years ago because it didn't work on my device. 

The Suzanne story was a disaster. I felt sorry for all the actors involved. The Suzanne plot gets even more ridiculous as it goes along. I always wondered if this was the Dobsons' way of getting back at A. Martinez for supporting JFP. 

I haven't seen it yet but I think it's fun that the writers had Abe take a call from a Cass Winthrop. It was nice call back. I don't understand why some people find it upsetting. As a soap fan, there is a lot to get upset about in the 15 years, but a shout to Cass? I'm glad they did it.

Getting rid of Carrington Garland, Louise Sorel, Roberta Weiss, Frank Runyeon, Roscoe Born and Justin Locke was ridiculous. I think getting rid of Carrington Garland was the beginning of the end for the show. The departure of Martinez cemented it. Marcy Walker's last few months were horribly written. It was a relief in a way to be rid of Eden/Suzanne because the storyline was so horrendous. Garland did have chemistry with everyone, and Davidson did not. The Dobsons and Rauch gutted the show for what? Warren and Katrina? Two characters who added very little although I know some liked Warren. I was annoyed by them especially in how Moncrieff's Cassie was sacrificed to booster Warren and Angela who had no chemistry. 

As someone who watched AW back then, I never bought Judi Evans as Paulina. Someone on this board mentioned Evans should have played Nancy and I like that idea. I also had no interest in Jake and I wish he had been murdered during the who shot Jake? storyline. I know rapists get "redeemed" or "romanticized" on soaps all the time, but I was done with Jake after he raped Marley. It just made it all the worse when Wheeler came back and they turned Marley into a bit of a whackjob so they could prop up Vicky and Jake. 

I found joseph Barbara more attractive then Eplin so I didn't mind Joe's nonsense especially if he were shirtless. Hypocritical I know.

7 hours ago, Marissa Gallant said:

I haven’t gotten to the Bunny portion of this. Just a lot of Laura. It is close though, because Sasha is dead in Julia's freezer. Shes under ice now because the blackout melted her. 

I thought they missed so many opportunities with the character of Laura. Norris is such a good actress that I would have liked them to put her in other stories that didn't revolve around Ethan or Michael (although I liked the Michael/Laura story for a long while). Soaps just loved to turn female characters crazy when they didn't know what to do with them. While I liked crazy Laura, it was obvious the writers had no idea what to do with Laura once the Leo Mitchell story ended. 

18 hours ago, Marissa Gallant said:

Boy HOWDY Laura is just a big bucket of crazy. And not a fun bucket of crazy that is enjoyable to watch. Just a big bucket of crazy. Whew, she is exhausting 

And the Laura/Bunny/Annie story was one of my faves. I wish it had gone on longer but I am probably in the minority about that. I tended to like the crazy and outrageous characters. Flame was another of my favorite characters.

The Caroline storyline confused me when I first watched it on youtube. It felt like another SB story where they had no idea where they wanted to take it, and then it was decided just to get rid of the characters. So odd. I really wish there has been someone at the network or production company who would root for consistency in storylines. 

On 10/24/2022 at 11:45 AM, Liberty City said:

 Roberta Bizeau Weiss' deal was a one-year now, so I suspect the deal to pick up was not met. And, considering her replacement, Marguerite Hickey, was only on for a few weeks, I suspect Flame's storyline was already wrapping up. 

 

I remember reading that Rauch fired Bizeau because of her relationship with Born. Born had apparently written a song insulting Rauch and others. Bizeau/Weiss was collateral damage so to speak. The Dobsons were setting up storylines with Bizeau so they clearly wanted to write for her. I think that's why Hickey briefly came in to wrap up everything. It probably explains why Runyeon would exit since Flame and Michael were set up to be a couple on the show. 

I know John Conboy gets a lot of flack for his tenure on the show, but it's the last time I enjoyed the show (admittedly, he had his problems). Once Rauch took over, the show just lost so much of its appeal. He made bad decision after decision. The departures of Marcy Walker, Carrington Garland, Roberta Bizeau and Louise Sorel really spelled the end for the show for me. I've never bothered to watch the Pamela Long tenure. I've seen the odd episode or clip but I have no desire to watch. The beginning of SB was very rough and I wonder how much time the Dobsons had to get the show on air. When did NBC choose to switch from Match Game/Hollywood Squares to SB?

I'm always shocked that the network or the production company didn't step in and stop the revolving door of characters. It really did harm the show because you would have months to get to know and enjoy a character and then he/she would be sent away/killed off once the new headwriter or exec came in. I suppose that's like most soaps (Especially AW the last seven or eight years), but SB just seemed to do it the worst. The show rarely had any stable characters beyond the Capwells. Since they never managed to do that, Marcy Walker's departure and Carrington Garland's firing  really destroyed the show.  

I recall reading articles that Griggs was fired from OLTL and AW because of backstage behavior. I don't know if that's accurate, but it certainly seems to the case at least with AW.

I am a Dark Shadows newbie. Do fans recommend starting the series from the beginning or starting at the Barnabas story?

Brandi on UGT2 has her moments, but it's in the middle of some horrific stuff. She still insists on going after Taylor for Russell's suicide which is disgusting. She never took responsibility for all the time she claimed Taylor was lying. She plays victim when Dorinda mentions her child, but thinks nothing of the Russell comments when his daughter will hear them? (Even if Kennedy doesn't remember her dad, it's still an icky thing to say on camera). She's obsessed with this Denise thing. Somehow, she thinks it going to get her back on a show by constantly bringing it up. This is a woman who let the coven five use her to get rid of Denise just because she thought she could use it to come back onto the show. And she's still harboring anger that she didn't go to the reunion that year. 

Phaedra shows why she can't come back to RHOA. She's playing a part and offers nothing else. Her whole time is making predictable wisecracks and funny faces while not talking about herself. Like a good producer, Tamra tried to get her to open up, and Phaedra just would not do it. Her refusing to accept responsibility for the rape allegation is why I don't want her back. 

It annoys me Phaedra derailed the conversation about the housewives getting fired because I wanted to hear from the wives who basically fired themselves through their own behavior versus those who were fried because the producers wanted to change things. Dorinda, Phaedra, Jill, and Vicki fired themselves on their last reunions, but none of them discussed it because the subject was quickly changed because of Phaedra. 

RHOBH:

It was obvious Diana was brought on to go after Sutton and Garcelle after the ticketgate stuff. When Sutton had the receipt, Diana's story went up in smoke and she's been spinning her wheels since. Sutton and Garcelle are carrying this show, and the coven are angry. Rinna's complaining about the editing and Kyle is doing press tour apologies. Fraudika is too busy fighting with that twitter lawyer.

I haven't seen enough of Ellen Wheeler's early tenure as Marley and Vicki. I wish there were an on demand service that aired the show (the way The Doctors is). I had no idea that the Rhonda Lewin who played Vicki was the Rhonda Lee that was on Star Search. She competed in the actress category. Rhonda Lewin on Star Search (at the 40 minute mark).

I think the character of Jake should have been written off and the story should have been "Who killed Jake?" I was never one to enjoy rapists as romantic leads. I know it was common on soaps, but I thought Marley's rape was unnecessary (as most soap rapes are) and highlights the woman hating that goes on in soaps. There was no follow through, and it added nothing to the story. It was just another example of something writers or execs come up with when they don't know what to do with a character (Lorna would get the same treatment later on). 

I also liked Cali Timmins's Paulina and I'm the kind of soap viewers who holds grudges so I never really warmed to Judi Evans as Paulina. 

1 hour ago, Paul Raven said:

 

But as time went on there were only a few characters that had been there more than a few years. Not a good thing for viewer loyalty IMO.

Exactly. Soap producers ignored this lesson. When you constantly change things, viewers tune out. Viewers want consistency. They don't want a new show every time a new producer or writer comes on the show. For some bizarre reason, the execs, producers and writers thought they had ditch the older characters and bring in the younger ones. Time after time, research showed that younger viewers liked long-term characters. They usually watched with their mothers or grandmothers do they enjoyed the "older" characters. I remember reading how YR's Jeanne Cooper was hugely popular with the younger audience for ex.

I was almost seven when Ellen Parker was written off, and I still remember Maureen's death as if it happened yesterday. It's been over 29 years and I'm still upset by it (I'm also still upset by Frankie Frame's death on AW). I think soaps died because they gutted the heart out of the shows and they didn't respect viewers' loyalty and love of the show. They were constantly on the search for the "teen viewers" but they did it by alienating the people already watching the show. After Maureen died, I didn't watch GL for years. It was like losing a family member which I know sounds strange, but it was such a gut punch.

It's interesting to me that the Dobsons complained about the amount of rape that happened on the show when they returned for their second go around, but they wrote rape storylines during their first tenure. 

I think 1989 is excellent for many of the stories. The Robert Barr storyline was wonderful until early 1990 when they didn't know what to do with it. I also liked the Laura/Michael storyline until that also just sputtered to a "conclusion." I think SB has many moments of brilliance, but as I've written so many times, there was a lack of consistency and follow through, and that's present from the beginning to 1991 (I don't know much that happened after Roberta Bizeau's departure). 

I think Rachel/Iris would  have been a fantastic rivalry. They played some of that when Carmen Duncan took over, but they let it go. Duncan and Wyndham would have been a formidable team. 

I agree Sandra didn't really work, but even within that story, it didn't seem like they knew why she was there. What was the point of bringing her on? For SB's tenure (and I have not gotten to Long's time), it feels as if someone has an idea and brings on a character and/or story, but no one determines if there is an end game. The show often feels like the storylines were written based on a whim or who the exec producer was not happy with at any given moment.