Paul Raven

There was discussion in the NBC daytime thread about Generations and why it failed.

This led to a comparison to Loving, where it was suggested that the show didn't have a clear enough premise and that the title was way too generic.

Can anyone come up with some alternative  titles, and what they could/should have done at launch to give the show a bit more punch?

I think it was still the case that actors who had done lengthy stints on soaps, particularly West Coast serials were pigeon holed and found it harder to get a good primetime role, except in nightime soaps.

Janice Lynde got that Norman Lear 'Roxy' pilot that she hyped up but it wasn't picked up. Later the best she could manage was a guest spot in the awful Morgan Fairchild 'Avengers USA' pilot.

David Hasselhoff lucked out with Knight Rider.

John McCook got cast in Codename Foxfire for NBC around 85 but it was shortlived.

Beau Kayzer got a pilot 'Harcase' that sat on the shelf until it was aired in Summer a year or so later.

5 hours ago, Khan said:

I also agree that making the Marshalls the proprietors of a chain of ice cream parlors was a stupid idea.  I mean, who the [!@#$%^&*] CARES about an ice cream company?  If I had created GENERATIONS, I think I would've been inspired to make the family business either "Marshall Communications," which would have been a conglomerate of newspapers, TV and radio stations throughout the Midwest, Northeast and Southeast regions; or a company that manufactured hair care products and cosmetics for the so-called "urban market" (sort of a Black Jabot, if you will).

Respectfully disagree here, we are talking about coming out of the Reagan era of excess so a scaling back on the mega wealthy business people might have been more appropriate.

And a half hour soap neither had the budget or scope to realistically depict that kind of enterprise. So I would have focused on something more relatable-a business that could be used as a backdrop when necessary whose ins and outs we could understand.

So yes to the cosmetics idea if it were depicted as a boutique operation.

Or maybe a real estate/property business?

AW

Mike and Marianne Randolph - SORASED in the mid 70's. Mike was gone by 79, Marianne a couple of years later.

SFT

Gary Walton. Stu's grandson. Never returned after leaving in 79.

GL

Hope Bauer. Written off in 84, Never returned despite her son being on the show for years after.

Y&R recasts

Snapper -William Grey Espy-David Hasselhoff

               David worked OK with Trish but by the time Lynne arrived, everyone seemed checked out

Greg- James Houghton-Brian Kerwin-Wings Hauser-Howard McGillan

           Never saw Brian-was he given a chance? Wings was a little creepy but did survive 3 years-he lacked the good guy element of original recipe Greg. Howard was a wash out but was given very little. A pity as Greg could have been a transitional character like Jill.

Jill - Brenda Dickson- Bond Gideon-Deborah Adair-Jess Walton

Each recast was a success in my book. Bond was doing OK but BTS stuff saw her dropped.

Chris - Trish Stewart-Lynne Topping

Lynne lacked the spark that Trish had, but again wasn't  given much to do.

Leslie Janice Lynde- Victoria Mallory

Leslie changed b/c of the recast. Janice had this gutsy underlay beneath the fragility and could have blossomed and gone head to head with Lorie but with Victoria they kept her pretty passive.

Peggy Pam Peters-Patricia Everly

Not worth mentioning.

So yes, most of the recasts didn't match the originals.

Against The Storm:                    NBC:  Oct 16, 1939 to Dec 25, 1942.(167 Weeks)  

                                                        Mutual: Apr 25, 1949 to Oct 21, 1949.  (26 Weeks)  
Ivory Flakes                                  ABC: Oct 1, 1951 to June 27, 1952.  (39 Weeks)
                                                     Totals: 232 Weeks - 1,160 Episodes  Broadcast    

Oakland Tribune 9 September 1949

Old Favorite Returning to Radio Lanes by JOHN CROSBY . 

 When "Against the Storm" returned to the air in April after a lapse of seven years, it "was welcomed like the Queen Elizabeth by a roster of dignitaries (the president of the Mutual Broadcasting- System, Carl Sandburg, Ralph Edwards, who was its first announcer) as well as an uncountable multitude of housewives.

' Sandra Michael, the author, who loathes the term soap opera, likes to refer to her own daytime serial  as a radio novel. That's an apt and not over weaning description. "Against the Storm is certainly several miles above other soap operas and, for that matter, several hundred yards above most drugstore fiction. Miss Michael took her program off the air in 1942 after she tried and failed to get it extended to half an hour. Having won her point, "Against the Storm" is back, half an hour a day in a format which gives her characters a little more elbow room. Why anyone should want to write a half hour show live days a week roughly the equivalent of a novel a month is Miss Michael's own business.

The story is laid on the campus of Harper College, and its central figures are old Professor Allen, his wife, 'his housekeeper, his two daughters, his friends, and his few enemies. The professor, to take them up in order, is a benign old campus liberal who has been lighting the Philistines on the campus faculty for 30 odd years and usually winning. He was, for example, opposed to putting all that money in a new football stadium. Wanted to sink it into scholarships, marking him clearly as a subversive. His humor is pedantic, but not enough to worry you. "You remember what Lowell said, There is no use in arguing with the inevitable. The only argument with the east wind is to put on your overcoat .' He also harbors an unreasonable passion for jonquils. His close friend is Professor Waldo Greenstreet, easily my favorite character in this campus saga, a bachelor whose enthusiasms run to tropical fish and a cat named Raymon, and who spouts appropriate poetry on almost any provocation. He worries occasionally about playing handball with Professor Blounder. Ideologically Blounder is clearly out of sympathy with him but, on the other hand, he plays a whale of a game of handball.

As for the villains of the piece the principal one is Professor Small, the head of Harper college, a "stuffy old party" who keeps his eyes on the trustees at all times. Has there ever been a sympathetic college president? There are a number of other characters Liz Porter, an ex actress, who speaks in a Lizabeth Scott or neo-Bankhead gutteral; Penny, a waspish old sentimentalist, who is Professor Allen's housekeeper, Julian, an atomic physicist but I haven't space to go into all of them in detail.

With a half hour to play around in, Miss Michael can develop her characters a little more thoroughly. build her situations a good deal more tightly and avoid thank God the excess of narration that disfigures so much soap opera. Her narrator; incidentally, takes the job a little too seriously, sounding a little like Milton Cross setting the stage for. the third act of Othello.You won't find any cliff-hanging in the ordinary sense, but there is a reasonable amount of uncertainty at the end of each episode to keep the housewife stirred up a bit until the next day.

While avoiding a great many soap cliches. Miss Michael hasn't succeeded in sidestepping all of them by a long shot. Right now, the action revolves primarily around Siri, Professor Allen's younger daughter, who clearly made a bad mistake marrying Hal instead of the reliable old Julian. Hal's mother seems intent at the moment on breaking up the marriage, a real old opera chestnut if Iever I heard one. Hal is quite a heel and I don't think he'll last the course, which may be just as well. Harper College is franklyy pretty weak in the romance department. Otherwise though, in its characterization, dialogue, and plot, us a pretty nice place to have around on the daytime air. 

Tod Adamson...Kevin Bacon.. August- September .79...nephew, Ted. Involved with Stephanie's daughter Wendy Wilkins, causing further hostilities b/w John, Stephanie and Ted as Wendy contemplated having sex with him. Wendy broke up with Tod as she felt bad about sneaking around behind the adult's back. Tod left town for college, telling Wendy he wouldn't forget her.

In the Knots Landing thread there was a discussion about how the premise was limited by having 4 married couples as the main characters.

That got me wondering whether it might have been better for Bobby Ewing to return to Southfork in episode 1 single and then encounter Pam, who was casually dating Ray.

The tentative romance could be spoiled by Jr's dislike of Pam, reservations from Miss Ellie, Ray's hurt feelings, Cliff's anger etc

And Bobby's old girlfriend Jenna would be ready to sink her claws into him, with Jr's encouragement.

Both Pam and Bobby getting pressure from others would decide not to pursue the relationship.

All those misunderstandings and interference would keep the two apart. The first 5 eps would end with a will they/won't they get together?

Then the first full season would carry that through culminating at some point (the season finale?) in a big Bobby/Pam wedding(That may not go ahead)

What do you think?

ANN WILLIAMS

THE DOCTORS                       Dr. Maggie Hansen Fielding Van Allen Powers  July 1963- December 65

THE EDGE OF NIGHT       Margo Huntington Dorn   September 1978- January 1980

LOVING                   June ____ Slater      June 1983- January 84         

4 minutes ago, SoapDope said:

David Cassidy wasn't doing much in the late 70's after The Partridge Family ended he might have been suitable.....LOL

David Cassidy Man Undercover.

The Generations theme and visuals suggested to me we were in store for a Waltons type family show, possibly set in the past.

Yes, there should have been more up to date music and visuals. Something showing Chicago landmarks and cast, as Khan suggested.

There were some fundamental mistakes from the get go. That opening showing the fictional soap was awful, and viewers might have turned off immediately thinking it was the real thing. And it didn't serve any real purpose moving forward.

Then having your opening show centering on a middle age women? Pat Crowley was  attractive and good actress but it gave the impression she was the lead,which might have turned viewers off.

A lot of the casting was blah.

They needed a strong opening story with juicy secrets to be revealed.

Having the Marshall own an ice cream chain was dumb-they should have had a 'sexier' business that could propel alot of story.

And James Reynolds and Debbi Morgan should have been cast from the get go. That would have got a lot of attention and showed they were serious about the Black characters.

So Jordan managed to climb into an air vent (how?) and then get the cover back on. OK...

Jordan will probably don a disguise 'cheap wig and glasses' (she can borrow them from Phyllis) and hang around GC. Maybe she'll get a job at Newman or the ranch.

Just awful basic storytelling. I feel for the actors trying to work with this shite.

Josh must go. 

DAVID GALE

SEARCH FOR TOMORROW   Travis "Rusty" Sentell, Sr.  July 1982- April 83 

LA Evening Citizen News 27 November 1946

Except for tying together four CBS daytime serials into one hour of entertainment doing the same with an equal number of NBC Stones and the two hour long "Hours of Stars" (CBSi there is little else new scheduled for Thanksgiving Day. Even these do not seem to carry out the spirit with which the Pilgrim Fathers set aside a day on which to give thanks “To express the current mood of the country arising from the public’s bewilderment about present problems and its fear of the future'' is the announced theme for the CBS and the NBC hour "The programs” publicity says will try to allay those fears by showing that the first step toward a better world is one which each individual can take''

The central character in "Big Sister" “Ma Perkins" "Young Dr Malone" and "Road of Life" ( KNX 10 to 11 am) will be Sam (Arnold Robertson) a retired railroad man who runs away from a home for the aged.

“Life Can Be Beautiful'' "Ma Perkins" "Pepper Young's Family” and "The Right to Happiness" (KFI at noon to 1 pm as a unit will have three new characters  to be played by Parker Fennelly, Mary Patton and John Larkin. Charles Paul pianist organist and conductor has composed a score which a full orchestra will play 

The problem with Nick is that he was aged way too quickly. I think Nick was only really 6 when he was aged to 16 and as usual the actor was older. Then he was married off quickly. It was all too fast and so he went into a holding pattern until the actor and character sort of became the same age..

Nick was born in 89 which should make him about 35 now. Nick was been portrayed as in his 30's for years.

Even though Kay and Victor were short term they were very important characters and I'm sure Bill would have input -at least seeing audition tapes and having a say.

Re Victor - Eric had been working in primetime guest shots for over a decade. Were the roles becoming fewer as aged out of his 30's and there wasn't much around? 

Did his agent get a hold of the Y&R casting and suggest a few months in daytime would build the bank balance. I wonder if Eric wanted a regular nightime role? Did he have any failed pilots under his belt?

The whole notion of a primetime sensibility for daytime is nonsense. They are 2 different genres.

I disagree with Jeanne about killing off Marge. That story was one that got me back into watching Y&R regularly. This is another case where the actor's personal view takes preference over what might be best for the show. Marge hadn't been on the show for years and would have been forgotten had Maria not brought her back.

Reminds me of when Mal Young decided to have each show take place in one day. It was a tradition with British soaps which aired in primetime for half an hour a few times a week. It was not necessary for US daytime and didn't work.

For sure stories have to move quicker these days, but this is ridiculous. I looked back at another Y&R 'suspense' story-Veronica Landers and that lasted almost 6 months.

As long as there are interesting beats and twists along the way I think viewers will hang in there.

Next up-a serial killer story. Wk1- a new character is introduced. Wk 3/4/5 characters are killed off or almost die. Wk6 -new character is unmasked as killer and killed off.

1 hour ago, BetterForgotten said:

Irna was in and out for some of that time, no?

Irna did work on other projects eg Another World , consulting at ABC but was always at ATWT till 1970.She came back from 72-73.

5 minutes ago, BetterForgotten said:

Whether you enjoyed it or not, Bell’s Y&R was an auteurist vision - something that became increasingly difficult to find in daytime. Other than Slesar’s EON, there’s no other long-term and sustainable comparison in this medium, IMO.

Irna Phillip's 13 years at ATWT?

I find it hard to believe that Bill would not have a say in casting. Imagine envisioning a character and then seeing them onscreen for the first time.

Either they had a crack casting director or Bill simply accepted the practice and adjusted his writing to suit the qualities he saw onscreen

Not to disrespect Kay Alden and her talents but she was not Bill Bell. She may have worked closely with him and collaborated but ultimately he came up with the characters and stories.

When she took over the characters and stories were established and she could work off of that. But when the next phase began eg Sean the cracks began to show.

When did Ed Scott depart? There must have been CBS execs who worked with Bell for years and maybe didn't have the same relationship with Kay as they did with Bill.

Maybe Kay didn't have the same'people skills' as Bill?

So many variables enter the picture. Human nature being what it is, maybe there were those that saw Bill's departure as a way to assert themselves.

Kay needs to spill the tea!!

@SoapDope posted this in the AMC thread. I hope they don't mind me posting it here as Y&R fans might miss it. It is from a 2016 interview with Jack Stauffer

He also talked about being on Y&R (he played Scott Adams in 1979) and said it was the only time in his life he had been fired. He said there was a line in the script that made no sense the way it was written and he decided to correct it. The Executive Producer berated him in front of the cast about saying things as they are written. He told the EP " I guess you don't want a real performance, just a line reading. He was fired 2 weeks later. He didn't mention his name, but I assume it was John Conboy. Stauffer said he disliked him. 

This makes me wonder about how it all works. Does Conboy get on the phone and tell Bill that Stauffer changed the line and had attitude?

I have read before that Bill insisted lines be delivered as written. So Bill decides to drop Scott/Jack? He was just a minor character at that point and might have gone anyway or did Bill think about expanding the role if he liked what he saw onscreen?

The idea of Nikki hooking up with a straight laced guy was then used with Greg.