P.J.

On 11/15/2020 at 6:05 PM, NothinButAttitude said:

 

Was it you or @P.J. that said that Denise used to call Camille "high yella?" I remember bits and pieces of that era, but what stuck out mainly with me was that they wrote the obvious trope for Black women--light-skinned Camille being nice, educated, a doormat basically. Meanwhile, Denise, being of a darker hue, being angry, uneducated, etc. That irked the sh-t out of me seeing as once again they failed us Black viewers by providing us with real complex characters. 

Nope, not me. As a square white girl---I'd have to look that up in an urban dictionary.

Re: LIz....I could understand if she had been exasperated with Marland writing her as the heavy, while Lily made her jump through hoops for her love after discovering the down-to-earth, poor and noble Snyders. Admittedly, I didn't listen to her comments, but the almost obsessive way Marland wrote the town of Oakdale worshipping Lily, might have grated Liz to no end. Not to mention some others.

Ugh...Kirk and Ellie were a disaster. I never got it---and I doubt they would've been paired up if Scott Bryce had stuck around.

Kirk was the only guy who was inherently interested in Iva from the jump. With every other guy she always seemed to be a second choice. I loved Kirk and Iva. I practically wore out a vcr replaying their scenes. Him following her into the Mona Lisa ladies room was hilarious.

They haven't known to do with Julian since he nearly slit Alexis' throat. So, I wouldn't be surprised.

But Rylan seems to be on the verge of story. Curious timing. I could easily think of about 10 characters who could go before her.

I'm sorry----I wouldn't have hired Gaskill to play a dogcatcher in a bad Disney movie after seeing him as either Katie's stalker or Dylan Lewis. I understand the frustration with stunt casting, but that doesn't make the actors "flops"---they did the  temp job they were hired to do. It's even hard to fault the parade actors B&B has gone through over the decades, when you already know Bell will lose interest in them after six weeks, no matter WHO they are. 

Michael Easton---Silas Clay/Ham Finn  GH  I do not understand GH's obsession with this dude. He's so low energy he makes paint drying a fascinating afternoon.

2 hours ago, ironlion said:

As for her time on CBS, why would ATWT name her Julia after Jack's ex-wife "Julia" was literally on the show one or two years earlier? 

*shudders in memory*  That was literally the point. Jack. who'd lost his memory, connected with the names "Julia" and "JJ". (His ex-wife and the name of "their" baby she foisted on him after raping him....)

*damn Pissy and Sheffer to hell...*  

I think the problem is that everyone has different definitions of what constitutes a significant or popular character is. By the time GL brought on Michael Burke (whose name I never would have recalled...) Mike Bauer had been absent for probably close to 15 years. And GL was already semi-recycling the name with Alan-Michael.

I would agree that better writers will deliberately stay away from truly iconic show names. ATWT was never going to have another major character named Lisa (unless it was a granddaughter). But those that are truly iconic are few and far between. 

Early Reva/Josh felt  a lot like Brick and Maggie from Cat on a Hot Tin Roof.

Ed and Roger, GL.

13 hours ago, Brolden said:

As part of this montage, we see Nancy sitting on the couch at the Hughes', with clearly nobody next to her, as Margo walks up from the kitchen behind her and sits with her. Nancy grabs a picture of herself, Chris, Bob and Kim, as Margo says somehing along the lines of "that's a nice one". I can't help but wonder how ED and HW must have felt filming those scenes, and I feel especially bad knowing it was one of HW's final episodes (Thank god she got to be part of the episodes surrounding Bob & Kim's anniversary after that). I get that budget cuts were heavy at that point, but this was just ridiculous. I would have probably rather not seen a Hughes celebration at all than seeing this half-assed attempt at one (although I am glad we got to see Helen).

I seem to recall ED saying that by this time, HW would tire easily and  could struggle with her lines. I just saw it was one of those "quiet" moments we can have around the holidays, remembering the past and those who aren't there.

19 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

.  Writers rooms got stale and became enamored of too much "group-think" and some may not agree but I think there was too much "pulpy" screenwriting-tic tendencies in the writing for ATWT in the last decade or so of the show. 

 

 

 

Obviously, most of the viewers are never going to understand the pressures HW's face in terms of volume and balancing a multitude of characters with issues that are beyond their control. Or even trying to walk the line between growth and keeping characters capable of stirring pots and creating the requisite drama.  

But Pissy seems particularly lacking in character progression, even if a story seems to be entirely created to showcase such. A character can still be a screwup, after making a mature decision . My biggest story beef with Pissy was Carly's tumor. Carly was legitimately sick. And what could've been a heart-rending story ----with no truly "bad" guy----where Jack and Katie could've simply realized  they were getting married for the wrong reasons, and ended their relationship, instead threw Carly under the bus the moment she decided lie. Jack supporting Carly while sick didn't mean they had to reunite; and Brad being attracted to Katie ( :barf ) didn't need to be propped, it could've developed naturally. 

None of the climaxes would've really changed. But....no. HacksawJean struck again. Ugh...still makes me furious.

I get your point, but Bob and Kim weren't a couple when she got pregnant. While Kim had at least one successful pairing with Dan (we could argue about Nick), Bob went through a string of not-so interesting women, or so I heard. Their friendship grew, granted, all through that time. But they really weren't what I would call a couple until like....'83?

I do wish Carly and Jack would've "co-existed" more. Although I wouldn't really have ever wanted to see them stable or happy with anyone else.   

2 hours ago, prefab1 said:

 

Speaking of CarJack... I know this will probably be an unpopular opinion, but while I liked both Maura West and Michael Park as actors, and I thought Carly and Jack were both well-defined characters who had a lot of chemistry together at one point, the Passanante era just made me so sick of CarJack as a couple. Most of their storylines seemed to keep falling into the same pattern: Carly does something that offends Jack's sense of morality, so he yells at her, then she yells back, then they break up for a while, then they get back together a few months later. 

 

It reminded me a lot of GL's Reva and Josh, another relationship I ultimately found toxic, with the man ultimately judging the woman and making her feel she wasn't good enough for him. That's why I'm probably the only one on these boards who preferred Reva with Jeffrey, who accepted her for exactly who she was. I actually felt the same way about Carly and Craig, and I thought Maura West had great chemistry with both Hunt Block and Jon Lindstrom, chemistry I wish the show had explored a bit more. 

Well, notice I said CarJack rocked----not always the writing for them. It often felt to me like TPTB knew they could yank strings and have their fans root for them. And you're right----the story was mostly "Carly bad, Jack good....wash, rinse, repeat".  I think CBS's  emphasis on female-driven story devolved into this trope  where the man was always right, and in some ways undercut their leading men. Both Josh and Jack got to the point where they looked like Puritans who ignored their mistakes and focused on correcting their woman. (Ironic when Josh started out as a horndog chasing anything in skirts, and Jack as an undercover cop who had gotten lost in the darker side of life...) 

At least CarJack got to touch on Jack's high-handed tendency to moralize.  I had quit caring about Josh and Reva 10 years before the show ended.

So...poor little Pissy "had her hands tied", and that's why her stories were repetitive and unmotivated? Really?  Yes, Gwen and Will may have had to be front burner---but there was nothing to write for them other than becoming baby-obsessed at 20?  It was important for Brad to come back younger than Jack---even though that completely contradicted what we'd seen play out on screen, and vastly changed Jack's backstory (if one thought about it....which of course, the show wouldn't have wanted us to do....)? 

Making it make a little sense is a low threshold, and Pissy rarely even made that.  There are so many stories that could have made more sense, had someone in the writing room taken five minutes and thought about the "why" of things, and restrained themselves from going that one last step that made things distasteful. 

RE: the critical nature of the discussion. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad it's not just some rah-rah, "everything was GREAT" discussion, but sometimes it does get me down. I try and remember everyone has the right to express their opinions. But for me, Marland was a GOD, the Snyders were a breath of fresh air, and CARJACK ROCKED.  

Considering ATWT's long history, I'm surprised I can't think of more examples.  Josh impregnated both Iva and Meg, who are adoptive sisters. 

Reva also had a child with Josh and Billy's father H.B., though she lost that. 

3 hours ago, FrenchBug82 said:

 

It is a bit the same for me with YR's Brad. On paper there was not much to the character other than what happened to him and the women in his life. But DD is very charismatic and charming and gave him enough substance that you almost forgot that he didn't really have a defined personality.

It is all very subjective though of course.
 

 

If Diamont was still playing Brad, I'd have put him on my list. 

Somehow, I doubt it.  I'm positive if you could dig up viewers' opinions from the 60's, you'd find the same kinds of complaints. The real difference is  social media allowing fans to connect with each other, vs them sending their complaints directly to the studio or actor via fan mail.

8 hours ago, FrenchBug82 said:

 

Meanwhile, good luck trying to explain what DOOL's Eric or YR's Paul or GL's Frank (all good choices) are about to someone who has never watched the show other than "decent guy, I guess". Neither has ever been on so much as to be grating, has ever done anything objectionable or memorable or interesting. They're there. 

Well, in Paul's defense, I'm old enough to remember the young, slightly shady, disappointment to his father Paul.  The one who was Victor's paid henchman, keeping an eye on his prisoner in the basement (Victor's first wife Julia'a lover---Nick the photographer, IIRC) and going undercover to clear his father of allegations of being a dirty cop (I think, it was a long time ago).  I'd never claim that DD was in the echelon of the likes of Michael Zaslow et al....but he's better than the vacant hair models stereotypes.  

As for Scott Holmes, crc.....is he bland....or just bad? *shrug*

God, Frank on GL owns this thread.  Frank Dicopolous---hell of a nice guy, but was only briefly a leading man because he hit the lottery and Melina Kanakaredes was cast as Eleni. Otherwise, he would've forever been a footnote as Harley's brother.

John McCook

I'm wracking my brain for more, but it's really hard to separate poor acting leading men (like Josh Morrow, Steve Burton, Shawn Christian)  from the  merely bland. 

Personally, I don't think Y&R, B&B, or CBS in general value any former CBS/P&G actors, period. And even Y&R isn't interested in giving Jack (or any older character) a story with an age appropriate actor.  They'd do round ten of Jack/Nikki because of "history" or Jack/Phyllis round 1089.... but if he goes chasing new vajayjay---it's going to be young. 

35 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

 

Speaking of 1985, I'm a bit confused: in June of 1985, didn't Bob and Kim already get married in April?  I seem to remember Craig and Sierra went to the wedding/reception together.  Yet, they're in Montega in June 1985?? For what purpose?  I remember they were in Montega in January 1985 and got separated, which is why Craig got false "intelligence" that Sierra was dead (which Steve's bio father Michael Christopher set up to trick the junta into giving up their search for Sierra).  Did they return to Montega after Sierra arrived in Oakdale?

 

I think Sierra and Craig went back to her father's estate to try and find out more information about her mother. Because, of course, why not venture into a civil war on a random weekend? 

The big one I recall is Grant Aleksander returning to GL after John Bolger took over the role. Bolger didn't leave much of an impression on me---and every once in a while I catch old GL episodes with him in it, and he's just not Phillip.  I guess GL pretty much agreed, I don't think they ever recast the role again when GA left.

I think there's a fine line---Rattray was better suited for the version of Lily that she portrayed. I can't imagine Byrne pulling off that cold, controlling, Lucinda-like vibe Lily had when she first returned. And part of my problem with Byrne is I never felt she grew as an actress. Now, whether that was because Lily was forced to circle back to Holden time and time again, or simply because Byrne only has so much in her wheelhouse, I don't know. 

It's personal preference. Just like Scott Bryce will always be my Craig, or Melanie Smith the superior Emily. 

Re: the Spa. The actual "Spa" part, with the blue drinks and Larkin Malloy---yeah, not so much. But I get why Martha, Kelley and Maura enjoyed it. They got to step outside their characters a bit, and for Kelley and Maura, it was easier to lounge around in white fluffy robes while preggers. And afterwards, at least for a while, they got to play the friendship out. Neither Emily or Carly really had women friends on the show (outside of family). Lily neither, although Rose had Mitzi.

Emma was sort of the flip side of Lisa. Lisa took in "bad" girls. Emma took in the "good" girls/runaways. Seriously, if there was one trope Marland ran into the ground, it was the "rich girl who finds herself" at the farm. 

True enough.

Michael on GH. He needs a serious reset as well. "Quiet and methodical" just doesn't work for a Q by blood/Mob by upbringing Mover and Shaker.