KLN

18 minutes ago, carolineg said:

For some reason I have a hard time picturing WN with JLB's Laura.  I don't know why, but I do.  

Me too.

I love JLB but I'd recast. There's a plethora of actresses in her age range who could pull off the rigidity of Laura with believable romantic appeal opposite Northrup.

21 minutes ago, carolineg said:

I remember wanting John/Marlena to sleep together so bad because Roman didn't seem to respect her at all.  And John, as usual, was fawning all over her.  In retrospect, Roman was a decent guy and John was WAY out of line, but it worked for me.

Unfortunately, Roman's character never recovered.

That's why I loved @Khan's idea for a Kate/Roman/Laura triangle.

Regular guy Roman, ice queen Kate and uptight Marlena-adjacent Laura.

Josh Taylor needs to go. Gift him a few seasons of golf and throw an extra $100 in the Christmas card.

They need Northrup back so he can get the change Roman was shorted.

6 minutes ago, carolineg said:

RealRoman became the bad guy.  Not in a villainous way, but so annoying you wanted Marlena to cheat on him.   You know Marlena, she always drives defensively straight to John's penis lol.

Listen 90's Days made vague sense to me at the time, but re-watching I am like tf is wrong with everyone?  None of it makes logical sense.  JER is freakin weird.  The absurd notion that a child will make someone love you and stay with you forever.  It's not the 50's.  And like Kristen/John's child would keep them together but John/Marlena's child wouldn't?  So weird.  Every female villian was having kids at the time.  

 

You're always on the nose.

JER was a weird dude with a skewed perspective to say the least.

46 minutes ago, Khan said:

Don't get me wrong, I understand your perspective on Kristen completely.  You love Kristen and you want her behavior ascribed to a genuine pathology.  As someone who grew up watching Douglas Marland's work on GL and ATWT, I think it's only natural to want to understand why someone like Kristen behaves the way she does.  It's just that I don't think Kristen has ever been a strong enough character, either as a "saint" or as a "sinner," to support the deep-dish thinking.  She was very thinly drawn in the beginning, which made it easy for a hack like JER to turn her into a wacko later over John's penis.

You're not wrong about that either.

Good Kristen was a bore. Poorly conceived and kind of severe with male leads. Her dark turn happened at a personally important time in my life and I gravitated to her.

It's been hard marrying the extremes of the character and find stable footing, I know. But I actually think that lends itself to reimagining the character when you factor in her childhood background and whatnot.

She could be a tragic anti-heroine if they wrote her as one. Or she can be a Darth Maul daughter from hell and fall into a woodchipper next week. I won't lose sleep either way but I DO see value in her, personally. Primarily as a rotated character though.

You don't seem to like any iteration of the character that's ever existed so there's pretty much nothing in this mess for you lol. 

39 minutes ago, carolineg said:

I think Kristen's trajectory sort of worked?  One of my fave Kristen scenes is when she finds a picture of John/Marlena/and Belle?  And throws it to the ground and stomps on it and says 'this is what's left of John and Marlena" lol.  Good psycho stuff.  I liked it.  It fit the era and story fine.  I mean, in the 90's a lot of women were fighting over John's penis....

Agree, it mostly worked for what it was.

30 minutes ago, Khan said:

Which is ironic, because the premise surrounding THAT triangle was so ridiculous and so only-on-DAYS that it dictated that someone, either John or Roman, become less-than-good in order for it to work.  To put it another way: for years, John (and everyone else) thought he was Roman; now, he's not.  Marlena, who was once presumed dead, is back, and she's torn between her husband, who's also back from the dead (...I guess...), and the man everyone THOUGHT was her husband, including himself; and who's really more like her husband than he isn't.  Now, try spinning something real and nuanced out of that, lol.

It barely made sense, because DAYS hasn't been written intelligently since the Carter administration.  And I say that as someone who loved this show back in the '80's.

I don't see eye to eye with you on everything but I love your posts!

16 minutes ago, j swift said:

I know we're not meant to ask how people in Salem afford their lifestyles (I mean Ben's having a baby, while he and his wife seem to not be bothered by need for jobs), but Kristen's source of wealth is a question that I have every time she's in town.

I assume dirty money from the family henchmen cracking heads on the murder for hire circuit.

12 minutes ago, carolineg said:

Before REALRoman appeared Marlena and Isabella were caught in a no win situation with Ro John.  In fact all four of them were basically good people in a bad scenario.  Same with Roman/Marlena/John.  I think you almost had to change it up with Kristen because it had been done to death with Marlena/John/Roman only a short time before.  Just my opinion, I don't doubt your scenario could work, but I do think John/Marlena needed some evil machinations to keep them apart because it barely, barely makes sense in the way it played out.

That's how I feel too. Kristen was sort of the next evolution of obstacles in the saga of John and Marlena's love story. Half a box of fries short and a tortured bitch in the end but she continues to pay dividends as a character.

12 minutes ago, Khan said:

I don't think Kristen Blake DiMera is a tragic anti-heroine.  She's what happens when you don't know how to write a "good" character in a way that's interesting.

I can't argue with any of your points except to say my perspective is (obviously) skewed a bit.

Everything that's ever happened on this show since November 1965 has been a mess from one perspective or another.

20 minutes ago, carolineg said:

I actually really like Kim.  

she's my 2nd favorite Brady after Roman

*I know unpopular*

But she was exhausting.  And went through so much story in a fairly short period of time.

Besides, I always thought it was shitty Shawn called Kim his best and brightest.  Kayla deserved to win even if Kim/Shane are together now.

I honestly didn't think Kayla and Shane were that bad.

She seemed like a lot as a character.

I love Patsy but she has a lot of... energy.

2 hours ago, carolineg said:

There is something deep and tragic about a women who wants a man so badly that she would do anything and he will always be in love with someone else.  Much like Sami, but her trauma was more on display and she moved past it sorta.

For me it was love in general.

I grew up in a broken home, sexually abused, separated from my mom at a young age, told she abandoned me and didn't love me, etc. Closeted gay kid in the 90's.

It could've been a lot worse but I didn't know the trauma I was in when I was in it.

I've more or less healed all that through experience, growing up, learning to trust, forgive and allow vulnerability but I poured myself into soaps to escape reality and I identified with the angry wound that was Kristen DiMera in my teens for sure.

She's a tragic mess of a character but I like her  personally and think she has story value.

2 hours ago, Khan said:

She doesn't.  Delia was infinitely more layered as a character than Kristen.  She wanted so desperately to be a part of the Ryans, because her own family was so messed up (schizophrenic father, mother who made a living selling subway tokens, etc); and she manipulated the family, who wanted only to love her, and constantly painted herself as a victim (against Mary, against Jillian, against Faith, against anyone who threatened her shaky status within the family), because it was easier than growing up.

I don't know what the hell Kristen wants.  Regardless of who's playing her at the moment.

Very interesting. Thank you!

12 minutes ago, carolineg said:

Don't bring up the dark years when John/Hope were pushed and pushed and pushed.  Sure they had some chemistry, but WHHHHHY?  

I kinda like Shane/Kayla.  Kim always seemed like ALOT to deal with lol. 

Look, I was young and not watching back then but from the clips I've seen, I agree. Shane and Kayla had chemistry!

So did Shane and Kim. Don't come for me.

6 hours ago, carolineg said:

I know it's a soap and it is what it is, but I was never clear why Kristen wanted to hold on to John so bad.  He was literally in love with another woman!!   Sure, John's tall and rich, but all these women on soaps are desperate to keep men that don't want them.  Idk, Kristen is a hot lady.  I don't know why she wanted a guy that was literally a giant red flag walking lol.

That's where I think her childhood experience, fear of abandonment, etc. could be worked in if they wanted to explore her deeper.

When I was younger I projected my own trauma as to what created her desire for love and desperate fear of abandonment.

The elements have been there all along for her to be a tragic anti-heroine, IMO, even when JER wrote her as the daughter of Satan and Ron wrote/writes her as a masked crusader from a Batman comic.

6 hours ago, Khan said:

I still wanna know whose idea it was to pair those two up in the first place.  Like, did we not learn our lesson from Shane and Kayla?

You know it was JER.

He wanted to bang Hope only slightly less than Marlena so of course his perceived hero should get a hall pass to bang her too. Get out of jail free card for both, we'll just say they were out of their minds and pretend it's not rape.

A big, convoluted 'out' that thumbed it's nose at the two primary fanbases at the time. It was stupid of SSM and Langan to run with it.

27 minutes ago, carolineg said:

I mean I am going to fault John on this mostly.  After Marlena's initial weirdness about John, she was pretty upfront with Kristen (post letter) about her feelings.  Kristen did know where Marlena stood on it all.  Kristen was absolutely the villian and did Marlena and John very wrong, but I don't think it's as black and white as J/M good.  Kristen bad.  Overall, she's just a blip on the radar for our Jarlena lovestory, but it was a moment.

I want to start a petition to bring Wayne back immediately.

Agreed.

It's mostly on John but it's a soap and foes folly when they could turn heels on the man instead. Just like life except obviously exaggerated.

She was a villain in the end for sure, I loved that and it had it's perks, but with Kristen's backstory going back to childhood and everything that came after, I think they could work her as something more dark grey.

Maybe jet black when she misses her meds.

With a different creative interpretation I think Kristen has legs, just not as a fully stabilized character. She works best in rotation but she has broad appeal for sure. My sensibilities have always told me that and she alone could generate a decade or more of story.

Also yes. If I'm going to watch this show again I want Wayne.

16 minutes ago, carolineg said:

I literally love Wayne so much.  Roman was an ass but, damn, it's so difficult to reconcile JT's Roman with an actual good character.

100%.

JT as Roman is something I've never been able to reconcile.

29 minutes ago, carolineg said:

Kristen is her own character for sure.  But I do think she should have a life long hatred toward John/Marlena because they did her wrong.  I mean she did them very wrong as well, but they were being ridiculous and didn't really care about who they hurt as long as they didn't hurt themselves.

Yes, yes, yes.

That's why I loved that scene with John and Kristen in the hotel room in 2012.

"Did you think I'd stay on the ground where you left me? You treated me like I was something stuck to the bottom of your shoe." 

Agreed there should be lifelong hatred. At this point I'd say she's done them much dirtier than they did her but back when they first became her catalyst?

They kind of had it coming in 2012.

36 minutes ago, Franko said:

Not to butt in, but I feel it's an appropriate time to share this lil' doozy of a scene that I'm sure we're all familiar with.

 

That's good.

Damn I miss Wayne!

6 minutes ago, carolineg said:

I DO think John did Kristen dirty for sure.  But I am not sure if Marlena did Roman dirty.   I mean, yeah, she had an affair, but Roman was kinda a dick to her for his entire return.  That DOES NOT excuse cheating, but the way Roman was treating her I probably want to bang John too.  All the lies afterward suck and traumatizing Sami, but Roman was an assh*le.

Agreed. I deleted that because the Roman thing is more murky. John did Kristen dirty for sure, though.

I'm glad Ron seems to see Kristen as her own character outside J&M's orbit. I love their entanglements but she deserves to be her own character in my opinion, preferably not all black or white but with combustible impulsivity.

24 minutes ago, KLN said:

...he set J&M apart and allowed a separate moral code where they could cheat and gaslight everyone around them but it didn't matter because only their pain was justified, even when they were wrong. 

Speaking of, this reminds me of the scene where Kristen and Marlena are arguing and Marlena was all "Who stood by John when he was on trial?! It certainly wasn't you. You thought he was capable of murder, you never knew him!" 

EVERY shred of evidence pointed to John killing Tony. But nope. They gaslit her for 2+ years before she finally snapped.

9 minutes ago, carolineg said:

Were Kristen and John even together at this point?  I don't remember, but at the very least it was shaky.  Not excusing that behavior or anything, but I don't know if I agree John/Marlena were gaslighting everyone.  Acting like two clueless people?  Yes.  I remember there was a scene at John's loft where Marlena was in a towel and it was wholly inappropriate for two people that weren't together, but that's on John.  He made the move back to Kristen.  Marlena could have been honest with him, but John was generally the one in the wrong.  He was emotionally and physically cheating on Kristen (all those random, weird make out sessions Jarlena would have on *accident*)  Idk, I do tend to think it's on Kristen too.  She obviously has her doubts and doesn't really lay it all out on the line either.

Maybe gaslight is the wrong word.

At the very least they weren't honest with a lot of people. Kristen had frailties but John did her dirty.

At the end of the day it's a soap and we're picking apart characters I enjoy no matter which side of the story they fell on. But looking back? J&M caused mess and JER swept a lot of that under the rug post-Kristen.

On 1/1/2022 at 9:28 PM, carolineg said:

This is the post-aremid scene I was talking about with J/M.  What the hell is wrong with these two?  Not normal BFF behavior.  "It feels so good to hold you in my arms again?"  And it takes two years for them to actually reunite?

 

See that's the stuff I'm talking about.

Everyone was irredeemable except J&M to Reilly. He allowed a separate moral code where they could emotionally cheat, sometimes physically cheat and gaslight themselves/others but it didn't matter because only their pain was justified.

On 1/1/2022 at 6:27 PM, carolineg said:

See in a lot of ways he did make Marlena pay, but not John.  She was the one who was possessed for cheating on her husband (in really rare, unusual circumstances-she didn't just pick up John in a local bar).  She was the one who was alone and celibate.  Not John.  So in some ways Marlena did repent.  John just got a hot new girlfriend.  I don't think their affair was their biggest sin.  Sure it damaged Sami and Roman, but get over it.  Things happen.  The deception was with Kristen and later Roman with their weird guilt about just telling the truth.  They were/are our hero/heroine on this show and their behavior was just odd I guess.  Just own it.  You already had an affair and a child because of it.  I don't think your love is actually going to kill Roman.  Rude.  They must think very little of Roman.

I mean Deidre/Marlena deserve to be icons, but JER had her take a hard fall and she never was able to own her actions and say it is what it is. It's been completely whitewashed but yet she constantly still feels guilty about it and Belle is like 45 these days.  Of course Marlena is going to be the angel on Days.  She was long before JER.  She was always the main heroine no matter how much they pushed other characters. 

No, you're right. I adore J&M. They're the center of the show as I see it. I just recognize the pathos of JER.

On 1/1/2022 at 5:26 PM, carolineg said:

The reunion was just lackluster.  I don't know if I am explaining this right.  I didn't need John/Marlena to be all PG and innocent courting because they were two middle aged people that shared a life and child.  I just needed a little more than "yay! we love each other!  Let's get married tomorrow!"

.

On 1/1/2022 at 5:26 PM, carolineg said:

I wish Kristen would have high tailed it out of town after dropping the Roman bomb because her last months were wasted.   She had to witness John/Hope making out in a freakin jungle because that was the new thing in 1997.

John basically couldn't deal with being alone.  That was part of his character.  He was sleeping with Rebecca just to make Marlena jealous basically.  John could get it up for just about anyone.  Ask Paul's random unseen maid mother.  

Anyhow, there is something there with Kristen/John being unresolved.  And I do think there is a lot of Kristen/John that was physically based.  They did have a lot of sex scenes.  But everything was completely glossed over in 1997.  John lost a 'wife' and a 'child' and was proposing to Marlena 12 hours later.  None of the massive affair guilt was in play.  There was no waiting or dates.  It was straight to sex and marriage, which we was earned, but we had waited years for this and it disappointed to be honest.  I know JER wanted to tie everything up in a bow before he left and the climax of the Kristen story was good.  The reunion was just lackluster.  I don't know if I am explaining this right.  I didn't need John/Marlena to be all PG and innocent courting because they were two middle aged people that shared a life and child.  I just needed a little more than "yay! we love each other!  Let's get married tomorrow!"

I get it.

On 1/1/2022 at 4:54 PM, carolineg said:

Listen, I accept JER and the dumbing down of all characters to fit his storytelling.  Fine.  Whatever.  Kristen had a very damaging upbringing and maybe was too trusting.  John had a lot of sh*t and a bizarre ever changing backstory and persona.  But Marlena, girl, you are someone who is counseling others as an actual licensed Dr.  I get you were kidnapped/possessed for most of the 90's, but she should at least be able to read a room or a man that you've been in love with and married to.  Instead, she was just encouraging silliness, delusions, and lies because she felt guilty she committed the ultimate sin of cheating on her husband like she was the only person who had ever done that in the history of the world.  I really do love the greatest love of all time crap on soaps, but Kristen should have left those fools in the dust in 1996 like you said.  It was not worth her time or energy.   And honestly, John/Marlena should have been more mad at each other for not clearing up the simplest of misunderstandings to one another.   I actually do have a huge issue with their reunion as well because nothing was really talked about or resolved.  They never really took a moment to discuss their massive failings and just got engaged hours later.   It really takes me out of that long awaited reunion, but I get they needed those moments to bring Roman back.

You said it all... again.

JER was winging it by the end. He had his sights on his own show and kind of sabotaged Days on the way out in my opinion. Took everything he spent years building out of rotation at once.

Unfortunately, it wasn't in the cards that Kristen gather her wits and tell them to kick rocks on her way out of town where she bumped into amnesiac Steve or something.

10 minutes ago, carolineg said:

Haha!  The fact that John would spew the "she has a special place in my heart because we share a child" nonsense was funny.  Like stop it.  You and Marlena are not normal.  I remember a scene after Aremid? and Marlena and John were lying in bed together practically cuddling after a kidnapping attempt by Stefano or something and they were acting like it was perfectly acceptable behavior.  How epically dumb were they not to see they both were into each other?  Instead, John just doubles down and gets Kristen pregnant.  And Kristen really didn't see ANY red flags before she read the letter?  C'mon girl.  I expect better of you.  And I still get another laugh out of "Kristen didn't believe I didn't shoot Tony" stuff.  John, literally, every shred of evidence was pointing against you.  She was being a logical person, not a jerk.  I guess I am turning into a Kristen defender in my old age.  Re-watching really makes you see John/Marlena were being self-sacrificing, obnoxious people, pretending to protect others, but in general just causing chaos lol.  I loved it at 13, but, man they really could have saved numerous people a lot of trouble by just being honest.

You said every word!

I love JER but he was weird as hell.

52 minutes ago, janea4old said:

In my opinion, Delia Reid Ryan Coleridge had a completely different vibe than Kristen.

She was always scheming to get whatever man she had set her sights on, and did some bad things that physically harmed people.  But she seemed more like a Sami Brady schemer (to a much much greater extreme!) who had gone off the rails and had no boundaries.

Just my perception.

Interesting.

That sounds like Kristen to me but I see Sami too, another character whose downward spiral was spawned from JER's belief that everything in the world is sin except cheating as long as you pray first.

On 1/1/2022 at 3:22 PM, KLN said:

.

.

On 1/1/2022 at 3:58 PM, carolineg said:

Kristen was a vehicle for John to 'get over' Marlena. 

From Maison Blanche on John/Marlena would fall all over one another unapologetically... 

I am surprised Kristen took their ridiculousness as long as she did before turning evil 

On 1/1/2022 at 3:38 PM, titan1978 said:

BTW, I felt this way about Ashley too-  I grew to love Brenda as Ashley.  But when Eileen came back it was like oh yeah- this is Ashley.

I get it.

There's nostalgia with Eileen and I love her. Everybody knows. It just doesn't have the same pull with me anymore.

I love them both but Stacy fits today.

On 1/1/2022 at 3:00 PM, te. said:

I thought making her and Lani friends was a good idea to ground her character a bit, unfortunately it seems like Ron can only switch between two extremes with Kristen and it's not working.

.