Videnbas
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Posts posted by Videnbas
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45 minutes ago, divinemotion said:
Guys I dont know if it works but I
Oh no... i feel like crying...
Is this a problem for everyone outside the Netherlands? Or can Videoland be viewed from other European countries? Are there any fans on this board who actually live in the Netherlands and have a Videoland account?
I really hope this is not the end of the Dutch high quality episodes!
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43 minutes ago, sheilaforever said:
I totally agree with your assessment on Sly. And I had never made the connection, but you are totally right that he filled voids left by Clarke's departure. I never liked Sly as a person, but I thought he was a fun character - until Jessica's rape of course.
As for Connor: it's a nice touch that he is bonding pretty well with Bridget and seems genuinely interested. However, in the long-run he is such an ill-defined character and completely useless.
#1540: Delusional Brooke is in high form. My hatred for the character is back in the floring 90s spirit. What a pathetic woman she was back - the writing has shited soooo much since then. Hard to believe that it's almsot 20 years now that we have lady of the manor Brooke and no longer destiny chasing "sleep with Ridge"-Brooke. LOL
What caused my anger: Brooke - who is not living there and no longer family - shows up at the pool of the Forrester Mansion, explaing that she does so regularly. Say what!? Then, Brooke had one of about 500 of these wash-rinse-repeat conversations with Ridge of 1988-1994. Brooke keeps pushing a much married Ridge. Just as soon as he is avoiding a straight answer, Brooke exclaims "I can hear your words, but I feel what you really feel, Wiiiidge!" Yikes!
I agree that Jessica's rape ruined the Sly character. I feel that it was out of character for Sly to do such a violent thing - I would expect him to manipulate and sweet-talk in order to be intimate with a woman, and maybe even take advantage of a woman who was vulnerable and whose judgement was clouded (or who was too naive to have any judgement in the first place), but I don't think Sly as a character would have crossed that line and assaulted a woman who clearly did not consent. After all, he had plenty of opportunities to sleep with Macy while she was passed out drunk in his room and he never did, until she agreed to it (albeit for VERY messed up reasons).
Connor I really had a problem with from the start because of his backstory that really didn't fit with the history of the show. Connor and Ridge as high school rivals, with Brooke and Connor as high school friends, just doesn't add up. Ridge is at least five years older than Brooke (as established during the early years of the show) so there is no way all three characters would have been in high school at the same time. Besides, it kind of takes away from the narrative that Ridge and Brooke were from completely different worlds if their respective high schools regularly played football together. He also starts out with a fairly sketchy and one-dimensional characterization. I do like his connection to Brooke's children though.
And I had completely forgotten how persistent and delusional Brooke was during those years. I can't believe I was rooting for her the first time I watched these episodes. Now all I see is a woman plotting and scheming and insisting that a married man leave his wife for her, even though he is clearly happy in his marriage and has really given her very little active encouragement. And the way she keeps telling him how he feels is starting to get on my nerves. (This is not me taking sides in the ancient Brooke vs Taylor feud. I am not really into Taylor's character either, but objectively, she is the one in the right here, because she is Ridge's wife and he married her, and stayed married to her, out of his own free will. But watching these episodes now I don't really connect with any of the characters Brooke, Ridge, or Taylor. They just aren't as interesting to me as many other characters I would much rather watch.)
Karen is another strange case to me because on the one hand I find her interesting to watch because of JJ's acting and screen presence, and on the other hand the character itself is something of a dead end. She just has no viable options in terms of romantic interests (or storylines in general). Pairing her with Ridge would feel weird, although they have chemistry - and she just doesn't click that way with any other male character. Maybe her coming out story came some 30 years too late because it would have been fitting after her breakup with Thorne that she did some soul-searching and figured out what she really wanted in a relationship.
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11 hours ago, divinemotion said:
Sly was a complete fail. So was everything connected with Felicia. Guys... maybe we should write to @rsclassicfanforever and ask if out Angel is going to save us once again. I am desperate for new 1993 episodes. Please... angel... save us.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on Sly. I found his unhealthy codependent relationship with alcoholic Macy interesting to watch because the dynamic between them felt very complex and convincing.
(Though I have to admit, I love everything and everyone connected to the Bikini Bar because I really like the atmosphere of that place - it's just so fun and summery.)
I really hope there will be new 1993 episodes soon somehow! I've nearly watched all of the uploaded ones too and I'm so very grateful for the ones we do have, but still wishing for more because I've been hoping for so many years for a chance to rewatch this period of B&B! Also, I think it's fun that there's a group of us here who are watching more or less the same episodes at the same time so we can talk about them!
What are your thoughts on Connor Davis?
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10 hours ago, Aback said:
What episode was he introduced?
BTW I love you guys' posts!Sly was introduced in episode 1298. He was on screen for less than 5 minutes in that episode, he is not even the main character in those scenes, and during that time we learn that:
* He is a bartender
* He is on friendly terms with Taylor’s brother Zach
* He is a surfer
* He has an eye for the ladies
* He is outgoing and social
* He has no scruples about lying or misrepresenting himself in order to pick up women
* He goes by the name of Sly Donovan.
* His nickname is Sly because he looks like Sylvester Stallone.
* He doesn’t want to reveal his real name, presumably because he has a name that isn’t ”cool”. (It isn't until three years later that we do learn his real name - Irving.)
That is pretty impressive in terms of characterization. And it's all so effortless, being shown rather than told, so we don't really feel that the writers are dumping all this information on us, it's just there naturally. After those five minutes, we really feel like we know what he is about and the type of guy he is (to the point that we've probably met someone very like him at some party or in a bar in real life). Current writers really have something to learn from this.0 -
23 minutes ago, edgeofnik said:
Out of curiosity, I checked out B&B's YT channel since they've been uploading from the beginning. I decided to start with S4 because of Bric.
Felicia/Macy were the only ones with some sense when it came to their mothers. Stephanie being so desperate to hold on to Eric is cringe-worthy. OC, that desperation kicked the Stephanie/Brooke relationship into the Katherine/Jill stratosphere, but still.
Sally/Clarke: great dialogue played by solid actors, who had excellent timing, but the premise is vile. The writers should've established that Clarke had *some* feelings/attraction to Sally - they did have history. I'm skipping their scenes, unless I see Darla!
If B&B brought back Margo, Lauren Koslow could plausibly recreate 'new' flashback from 30+ years ago because she's barely aged!
From his first scenes, Jake doesn't work.
I am watching 1993 episodes and I had this vague feeling something is missing and I just realized it's Clarke. He was such an entertaining character to watch, the way he would constantly paint himself into corners because of his hubris and then try to smooth-talk his way out of them.
I actually thought Jake worked as a character.
What doesn't work for me at all, though, is the Taylor/Ridge/Brooke triangle (and I totally understand if this is an unpopular opinion). Ever since Taylor married Ridge, that triangle has basically been stuck in a loop with Taylor the understanding wife, Brooke trying different schemes to convince Ridge to leave Taylor for her, and Ridge not actually encouraging Brooke but not conclusively shutting her down either.
Another possibly unpopular opinion - I actually like Sly as a character (in pretty much the same way I like Clarke - he's not exactly a good guy but he is entertaining and fairly well-developed). I think it was the way his introduction was written that really impressed me, because in a single episode we got a PERFECT snapshot of exactly what Sly was about.
Blake Hayes - no. This was not a good character.
I have just watched Connor's introduction and I am unimpressed so far. Maybe he gets better.
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2 hours ago, Paul Raven said:
Not totally familiar with B&B BITD when Joanna Johnson was brought back as Karen, but am I correct in saying that Ridge/Karen was never explored?
Despite the fact that Ronn Moss/Joanna Johnson had clicked previously and it was an obvious story to have Ridge entranced by Karen due to her resemblance to Caroline and for Karen to be captivated by Ridge,
Even if they didn't want Ridge/Karen as a major couple at least it should have been explored?
It was explored in exactly the way you described. In fact, Blake Hayes did everything he could to orchestrate a Karen/Ridge relationship based on basically transforming Karen into Caroline. But in the end, he didn't succeed. And I think it was ultimately for the best, because Karen's transformation into a Caroline replica had this somewhat (=very) unhealthy feel to it, and a Karen/Ridge relationship would also have felt too much like it was based on transference of feelings.
Nevertheless, Karen and Ridge still had chemistry, for obvious reasons. And the show struggled (and failed) to find any other viable pairing for JJ.
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Does anyone know what episode Videoland is at now? I hope they are still airing the classic episodes and that one of the angels will eventually be able to upload... the show is so good!
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12 minutes ago, divinemotion said:
The Karen Macy living together has been the worst Bill Bell story ever.
Yeah, it was not a good look for either woman (and it made Thorne look pretty bad too). Which is why I basically cheered when they finally saw the light, decided they'd both had it, and teamed up to get Thorne to make up his mind already.
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1 hour ago, edgeofnik said:
I'm guessing the writers thought the shock of Sheila showing up at Li's was a bigger 'bang' for the audience rather than adding more scenes that would result in the obvious. Considering B&B's tendency to over-dialogue 'why did I drink???' and repetitive scenes that don't advance the story, it's not a bad call.
And, for the record, I totally loved the Mike/Sheila friendship back in the day - especially when Mike spun the blood tests, which was an unexpected twist, because the audience never knew if the results would hold. Further proof that Sheila as a pot-stirrer for a normally bland show works far better than Sheila as psycho.
Yes, but my main objection to this "shock" approach is that choosing the surprise of Sheila at Li's (which they diluted anyway by having Baker tell the audience first) over showing her and Mike plotting her escape robs us of Sheila's POV. And that kind of turns her into a more two-dimensional villain than if we had got to see her in scenes with her old pal Mike, which would have been better in terms of character development.
Skipping the entire escape just tells me the writers don't really care about Sheila as a character beyond the shock value of having her pop up somewhere and be scary.
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1 hour ago, Fevuh said:
So I'm glad I didn't continue tuning in. I pretty much made that decision when Sheila turned around to a guard and called him by his name. I didn't watch back then to even know who it was - but it all boils down to the same thing. Sheila knows all and knows everyone and will get out of everything at all times - very quickly. To the stupidity of everyone/all characters. It wouldn't shock me to read that Sheila actually has the "real" Finn stowed away somewhere, and the woman (Li?)?? only thinks she has the "real" Finn. The show is beyond at some points. I said in another post a long time ago - maybe this was normal with Soaps all along (well, partially I know that to be true - suspending reality)....but I don't think it was this bad. I think I'm too old now and outgrew this kind of thing. I watch old clips of World Turns or Guiding Light and think about how we slammed the show when we thought they were bad - but damn, knowing the timeframes and things and to look at old clips I think....damn that was a company of actors. Damn that wasn't bad at all - in fact it's quite GOOD compared to this. I saw some clips of Susan and Kim on World Turns going at each other - and the Divas on a Bus scenes...things in their latter years. I don't know why I was disinterested at the time. Makes me wistful.
In this case, though, it could have been a great use of history. Sheila and this particular guard go back almost 30 years. He was her faithful sidekick for a very long time. But the big letdown was not letting us see them interact or letting us see how they pulled off the prison break.
The "right" way to do this would have been to build up to the prison break slowly - letting us see Mike and Sheila reconnecting, plotting in secret, almost getting caught, figuring out a plan and carrying it out with a real possibility of failure. That would have been a riveting storyline. Not just letting all that happen off screen over the weekend and then going "oh, well, Sheila escaped".
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1 hour ago, sheilaforever said:
Some time in the early 2000s B&B started to follow the trend to "speed up" storylines. Hence actual built-up fell out of the window, yet there were multiple storylines and at least the climax of these stories was often to die for. Then by 2008 (after the writer's strike headlined by Kay Alden) it started to get really sloppy story-wise and we ended up with mostly one A story and the occasional appearance of other characters in so-called stories which lasted 5 episodes max. By 2020, IMO, the show took a turn for the better by bringing back at least 2-3 actual rotating storylines. Unfortunately, only on very few occasion more than one storyline takes place within one episode. Pacing also still feels off, but this might be linked to the show's production model of always taping at least 2 episodes per day. Therefore two episodes often feel like one big episode stretched to the max, e.g. same characters/similar conversation. The production model was implemented in Spring 2005 leading the longer stuido break around Christmas, late March around the show's b-day and summer (usual late July-August) where the lights are dark for 3-4 weeks at Television City.
Speaking of Karen: it's a HUGE storyline bomb that by spring 1993 the writers have zero interest in the character. Her friendship with Brooke makes absolutely no sense to me after she was made to believe that Ridge is the man of dreams because she is Caroline 2.0. Then, she is working at Spectra and should focus all her energy into making her mark at company - plus, she has that "solid" relationship with Thorne which is based on a lie or at least some not-telling. Befriending Brooke is completely counter-productive to get into the good graces of Stephanie as well. I appreciated that scene with Karen standing up to the Forrester matriarch that she is making her own life choices. Yet, it does not make so much sense in the first that Brooke and Karen spend so much time together. Sally and Brooke could have worked... Here, the writers felt the need to use Joanana Johnson's contract guarantees for something and did not find a better than to make the replacement of Katie, Donna or a nanny who is listening to Brooke's sh*t and gushing about it.
Yeah, Karen is pretty much in limbo by spring 1993. She is basically just one of several obstacles for Thorne/Macy, and the focus isn't even on her in that storyline either. The problem is that her "romance" with Thorne absolutely does not work on screen (meanwhile, she has like ONE scene with Ridge in this time period and there is decidedly unintended chemistry there). And her friendship with Brooke also does very little for Karen's character development. Oddly, though, Karen seems to connect pretty well with Macy (which in terms of storyline is counterintuitive but it's there. Their brief scene in the bathroom after the food fight, bonding over their mutual misery, loss of dignity, and the stupidity of their living arrangements, was the best part of that entire contrived storyline).
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40 minutes ago, sheilaforever said:
Smith was an important writer at both B&B and Y&R and worked on both show simultaneously at times. Credit-wise we know very little how the writing team worked from 1987-1993 because script writers did not exist until then. From some interviews we know that Bill Bell sometimes wrote VERY detailed outlines and even drafted some dialogue as part of his head-writing duties. John Smith always seemed to be a lay-outer who cut Bill's story-projections for a certain week into single episodes (breakdown writer) and regularly drafted the dialogue. Brad Bell also served in this capacity from 1989-1993. From at least 1994 to 2001, the writing duties were shared as followed: Brad Bell as headwriter, Jack Smith as breakdown writer and occasional script writer. Then for half of 2002 (basically Sheila's run) John Smith was promoted co-head writer to get a kick start on leadership before becoming lead head writer over at Y&R. He was never credited above Brad Bell, though - unlike those May 1993 episodes!?
For the past decade or so, it seems like Michael Minnis, originally a script writer at both B&B (he wrote most of Sheila's episodes 1996-1998) and Y&R, has taken the John F. Smith role at B&B.
Thanks! That's a lot of interesting information!
I guess I'm trying to figure out how the show could go from well-crafted storytelling with a "professional" feel (sure, some storylines were better than others, but still basic structural things like shaping a story arc, setup and payoff, dramatic turning points in each individual scene as well as in the overall plots, basic characterization by "showing rather than telling", and so on, were always in place) to the "make-it-up-as-you-go along" rambling poorly paced inconsistent mess that is the show today.
I think that is the most frustrating part of watching the current episodes and the classic ones side by side. It's not even about the storylines or the cast, it's the difference in structure that really gets to me.
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1 hour ago, sheilaforever said:
EDIT: B&B's only real headwriter change can now finally be confirmed, but not how we thought it took place...
#1532 which aired May 3, 1993 is the last episode with William J. Bell credited as head writer
#1533 has no credits
#1534 which aired May 5, 1993 has William J. Bell no longer listed as head writer but "executive story consultant". However, the writing credits start with John F. Smith in first position and Bradley Bell in second place... Could have either been a typo (but it happens again the following episodes...) or a trial phase before Brad Bell really took over as head writer.
I have always wondered about John F. Smith's role as a B&B writer. All the way from the beginning, he has been credited in second place after Bill Bell and when I google him it seems he was associate head writer 1987-2002. And I have always felt that the most noticeable shift in the show happened some time after 2002/2003. So I have to wonder if he provided some "creative stability" when Brad took over as HW.
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45 minutes ago, sheilaforever said:
Odd is probably the right word. It was like watching a 60s musical. As you pointed out, it felt sooo out of place because it zero connects to the rest of the cast and usual style of the show. The whole settlement meeting with the lawyers was also yet another highly contrieved event where Macy and Thorne beat around the bush instead of talking. Yikes!
PS: I tried to google the lyrics and couldn't find any result. So you might be right about your hunch.I did try to google the lyrics too, but nothing came up.
And yes, the premise for this entire storyline is Thorne and Macy completely failing to communicate. In a way, though, I felt like that strange fractured telepathic non-duet with its sometimes awkward rhymes and the music that kept stopping and starting was the perfect way of illustrating that because it felt like they were trying to burst into one of their usual songs, but failing because the connection was broken.
I know I'm overanalyzing it of course but I love doing that, especially when it comes to music.
Speaking of music, I have to say I absolutely LOVE how they accompany the scenes where Sheila seduces Eric with this song that goes "witchcraft..." Perfect.
And just the fact that they actually have live musicians regularly on the Bikini Bar set. That's a really nice touch.
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@sheilaforeverI just got to #1520 and the montage that you mentioned. It was very... odd. Not one of their "normal" duets but more like a tentative "fractured" song that didn't quite manage to become an actual duet - like it was broken.
That can't have been an actual existing song, it must have been the scriptwriters getting a sudden urge to do musical theater. (Sometimes I swear Thorne and Macy exist in a parallel universe to the entire rest of the cast, where everyone else is in a soap and they are in a musical.)
I either love it or hate it. Can't decide which.
What were your thoughts on it?
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1 hour ago, sheilaforever said:
It's most certainly the BOLDED part. I'm quite happy that I enjoy Ridge&Taylor as much as I remembered; I find them playful and charming. That's what frustrated me post 2005: It was a complete rewrite as to who Ridge had the healthier relationship with: Brooke or Taylor.
However, the triangle as such and the constant "say that you love we, Wiiiidge. Just say it, pleaaaaaase" is so one-note and annoying. It's really hard to stay invested in those scenes and the back and forth considering it's more or less the same drivel we have seen for 30 years now. LOL
To me, the most interesting aspect by far of the Bridge/Tridge triangle is how my own perception of it has changed since the first time I watched it.
It really is like a Rorschach test. What you see is a reflection of your own mind.
The first time around, I was watching this as a young girl with my mother. I was maybe 11 or 12 when I first watched these 1993 episodes. And I was completely Team Bridge because I believed they were "destined" to be together and I thought it was romantic. This time around, I am in my late 30s with a family of my own and my perceptions are completely different. Sure, I still feel that Ridge married Taylor partly on the rebound, but he was committed to his marriage and clearly happily married, and Ridge and Taylor had a healthy way of communicating about their issues. Meanwhile, Brooke spent the entirety of her pregnancy scheming and plotting trying to get Ridge to leave his wife for her, and after Bridget's birth, she became even more aggressive in her pursuit of Ridge, who really didn't encourage her all that much. And my sympathies are entirely with Taylor - even though I don't even particularly like the Taylor character - because here she is clearly in the right and Brooke is clearly in the wrong, because Ridge has chosen to be married to Taylor. Brooke comes across as extremely disrespectful not only of Taylor but of Ridge too. And Brooke and Karen plotting together on how to lure Ridge away from his wife (while Karen is already living with a married man knowing he still loves his wife) is pretty sickening to me now.
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1 hour ago, sheilaforever said:
I'm currently up to #1529: Stephanie is about to stage the ultimatum to keep Eric from marrying Sheila.
Highlights of 1993?
The paternity test, Sheila& Mike - it still holds up soooo well.
Lauren's visit in LA which felt so right as if she has always been part of B&B. The scenes with Sheila, Stephanie, Eric, Ridge and Brooke are all so spot on.
Highlight of a different kind...
#1520 - have you seen IT yet??? I don't want to spoil anything - I just say musical montage at Forrester Creations...
Macy's alcoholism as well as everything connected to it is NOT working for me. I think it all happens too soon and with too little investment by the writers.
The Ridge & Brooke stuff is starting to get annoying in April (wasn't fond of Connor's intro), but I'm really PUMPED about the battle for BeLieF because Steve Crown is already befriending Brooke in my last episode...
Ooh, I'm just a few episodes behind you (just watched 1501) so don't spoil anything!
I agree the early scenes with Sheila and Mike in connection with the paternity test are edge of your seat stuff - I had forgotten about the existence of the scene with the scissors so it took me completely by surprise and I loved it so much I had to rewatch it several times. I kept getting distracted thinking about the genetics side of it all though and wondering what the best way would be for Sheila to tamper with the paternity test results. It appears to me just switching Eric's and Ridge's blood samples would not be enough since they also had Stephanie's blood (and since Sheila did not actually know for sure that the baby was Eric's). And I kept thinking that Ridge's paternity (as it was retconned later) would have been revealed here.
I am just entering into the Macy alcoholism storyline so I haven't really been able to form an opinion about how it plays out on screen. She has only been drunk once (and I did like the scenes with poor Keith at Sally's apartment) and I remember thinking "wow, that came out of nowhere" and fearing that we'd go from 0 to 100 in one episode, but then the writers seem to have slowed it down temporarily with Macy appearing sober at work a few times. As much as I like Macy and Thorne together, this entire storyline hinges on a LOT of plot-induced stupidity on both sides, where they consistently have to avoid talking about anything that might clear up their misunderstandings.
To me, the Taylor/Ridge/Brooke stuff is where I find my attention wandering elsewhere. I know they were supposed to be the frontburner triangle and I was invested in their storyline back in the day, but rewatching it now, I just don't find them as interesting this time around. Maybe it's knowing that they'll still be at it 30 years later...
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How many of you are currently watching the 1993 episodes from the Vault? I have been binge watching the first few months in the past week or so and I'm very excited about what is to come. (I keep telling myself it's time to start rationing the episodes so I won't run out of new ones to watch just yet, but I keep watching and I just can't stop.)
What have been your highlights of that year so far?
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So today's episode (June 13) illustrates everything that is wrong with the current writing.
Last week they achieve a real surprise twist by bringing back Mike Guthrie (in my opinion a more rewarding twist than this whole Finn-is-dead-no-he-isn't stuff).
This week Sheila is suddenly out of jail and we didn't even get to see Sheila and Mike having a single conversation, or see how he helped her escape, or anything. I was waiting all weekend for a Sheila/Mike scene where he helped her break out of prison and where we'd get some of that old witty back and forth between them, and now suddenly it all happened OFF SCREEN? This story has so many missed beats it needs a pacemaker.
I guess it's still possible that we get to see what actually happened through flashbacks, or that we'll get more scenes with Mike down the road, but it's just as likely this was only a brief cameo and the writers once again failed to see the true potential in what could have been with Sheila and Mike back as partners in crime.
This is what they ALWAYS do - big surprise, fantastic potential, no payoff.
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18 hours ago, Soapfan8 said:
What old school characters do the new gen characters favor me, I’ll list some examples;
hope, Steffy, Liam, Thomas, wyatt, Finn, paris, Carter. Who are like their classic bold counterparts
I'm not sure I understood the question right - is it about which current characters are similar to or based on classic B&B characters?
I think it's really hard to answer because the current characters are nowhere near as well-developed as the classic ones, so it's not easy to make a comparison.
I guess Hope/Liam/Steffy are supposed to be a next generation Brooke/Ridge/Taylor, but the characters aren't really that similar to their classic counterparts (other than Liam having inherited Ridge's indecisiveness, and the girls having inherited their mothers' strange attraction for a man who will never settle permanently for either one of them).
Wyatt is in a similar position to Thorne - always playing the knight in shining armor to the women who are in love with his brother.
Dollar Bill has some similarities to his namesake Bill Sr, but Bill Sr was a lot more sophisticated on the surface.
Carter is possibly the modern Connor Davis - everyone's lawyer but without any luck in his own personal life.
Paris and Finn are virtually blank as characters - I can't think of any classic counterpart to either of them.
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B&B lost the Spectras in the early to mid 00s after they had been on the show since the late 80s.
And even though Darlene Conley passed away in real life, that didn't necessarily have to mean the end of that entire family. But Conley's real life death had been preceded by years of gradually phasing out her and the cast surrounding her, meaning there was nobody left to carry on the Spectra legacy when the show lost her.
There were several writing choices that led to that point: never giving Macy or CJ children meaning there was no viable third generation (other than possibly Aly who was promptly killed off), never establishing adult CJ as a core character but rather only giving him a few short term storylines and then writing him off the show, killing off Macy (the obvious heir to Sally) twice in a short time, killing off Darla, and having Sally lose Spectra Fashions and end her days as a secretary at Forrester Creations.
Then the show tried to backtrack in 2017 by inventing a whole new set of Spectra characters, but the damage had been done and it never really worked.
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4 hours ago, sheilaforever said:
I'm slightly torn on the assessment that all of these characters are a shell of their former self. Putting aside the obvious much less skillful storylines than in the good old days, I think some parts of Brooke's and Sheila's character is a natural evolution which is actually believable. The Brooke of old was a chemist and smart business woman. Nowadays, she is a desperate housewife who is walking around Forrester Creations in perfect hair, awesome outfits and big clutches, but does NOTHING. However, I could never care for Brooke back then because she was a pathetic homewrecker who always put her needs and destiny of the month first. Therefore, I like Grande Dame Brooke (which started around 2012 with occasional back to the roots moments like "Brill" affair) much better and think it suits her age and role in life to be more grounded - admittedly to some extent Brooke is now more boring, but I think B&B did the right thing by adding a viable younger generation because some stories should not be told with the old guard.
Same goes for Sheila: she was always struggling to find love because she lacked something in her childhood. She wanted to e loved for who she is, but was never able to experience true love. All this backstory was told on B&B in the mid/late 90s, sometimes in a rather religious context like in 1996. The evolution of Sheila already began with Amber and having a child with James.
I'm pretty surprised by the praise for her 2002 return: while it made great TV, it all really hurt her character: she killed Lance with bees (IMO; her only REAL murder) and her sole ambition was to get her daughter pregnant by Rick!? The shooting at the Forrester Mansion was an accident; so there were chances for redemption which Brad Bell did not follow up with. Her 2005 Y&R run started off amazing but then it was like WTF - and already over. Therefore; I liked her 2017 with a balance of camp and excitement, but never jumping the shark. Sheila's antics are now more grounded and less extreme. For this reason I find her current run also pretty smart and it is actually classic Bell storytelling that a character is making a BIIIIIG fuss about switching a lable of a bottle. Remember the good old days on Y&R and B&B when we viewers were on the edge of our seats by such important decisions (which often took and entire week) whether Nikki was driving into town from the ranch to confront Ashley!?
My point is: yes, the production values of B&B are way less exciting. The storylines used to be plotted smarter with better build-up (that said, I think Brad Bell and team show actual ambition to tell more than just one story at a time and make the consecutive stories actually fit with each other in the past 2 years…). On the other hand, I appreciate that Brooke or Sheila of 2022 act different than they did 20 or 30 years ago. It is always a thin line to keep such an evolution in line with the nature of the character. At least for those two, I can dig it. What I could do without is the hallowing sounds around Kimberlin Brown’s scenes because as you pointed it, it totally defeats the purpose to make her an adult character which wants to be good but somehow ends up doing bad stuff.
Yes, I agree that the character evolution of Brooke and Sheila as such is not necessarily unbelievable, it's just the way it is realized on screen that bugs me - especially when it comes to Sheila because I feel like KB has been aiming for "subtly unbalanced but trying to be good" ever since 2017 but the director or whoever makes those decisions about the camera angles and the soundtrack obviously has "cartoon villain" in mind and it really undermines her more nuanced acting choices when we get extreme closeups of Sheila's sinister smile accompanied by sinister theme music and a sinister laugh with sinister reverb (while the entire rest of the cast tells us in dialogue that Sheila is "crazy", in case we didn't get it) - without Sheila actually having done anything sinister yet. The writing also tends to undermine Sheila as a character - especially during her current run where the things she does and the dialogue she is given to speak are usually so far beneath the wit, intelligence and cleverness I have come to expect from Sheila that it almost feels like 2022 Sheila is suffering from early onset dementia. Sheila used to think, and act, much FASTER than she does now. She would not sit alone in her hotel room for three months contemplating the results of her latest scheme. She would keep moving, keep her plan progressing.
And another thing that bothers me this time around is the fundamental motivation surrounding Sheila. In current episodes, Sheila seems motivated by anger, and she seems to inspire anger in everyone else. But that is NOT what Sheila was about. Sheila was always about fear, not anger. She feared others and others feared her. All her worst deeds were always driven by fear, not aggression. Sheila was always (in her own mind) acting defensively. And others in turn were defending themselves against her. They did not deliberately and unnecessarily "poke" Sheila the way Brooke and Steffy have done this time around. Making Sheila all about anger makes her less threatening, not more.
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Since the show just brought back Mike, I was wondering if you have a favorite Sheila/Mike scene?
The one with the elevator and the Dobermann is classic of course, but I really loved all their early encounters - just watched the one where he tries to force her to have sex with him and she turns the tables on him and threatens to "turn him from a bull to a heifer" using a pair of scissors. Mike goes from believing he, the tough guy in a uniform, can intimidate a little nurse into having his way with her, to utter terror when it dawns on him that one does not mess with Sheila Carter.
I always thought Sheila added drama to B&B, but it's not until Mike comes along that the character really reaches her peak IMO. They truly were the perfect match.
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38 minutes ago, divinemotion said:
Yep... different character... 2022 sheila is not sheila
And it saddens me because it seems like KB is really trying but everything works against her - the plot structure, the dialogue, even the camera angles and background music, everything seems designed to make Sheila more cartoonish, and it was the same in 2017. The sound engineer even adds reverb when she laughs to make the laugh more diabolical. Not easy to do a nuanced portrayal under those circumstances.
1993 Sheila still had her own theme music that followed her around, but only when her mind was working on something sinister. I feel this time around they are misusing Sheila's theme to create tension when it isn't there in the writing.
But then again, all the veterans are unrecognizable these days. Brooke is a shadow of her former self. Eric is an old fool. Taylor and Ridge are obviously not the same characters (even though KA occasionally channels 2002 HT). Deacon is the only one who is still somewhat in character, although he seems to become more of a loser every time he appears on the show (and the show has now completely forgotten that he too is an alcoholic).
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B&B: Old/Classic Discussion & Articles
in Discuss The Soaps
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@sheilaforever after a week of massive binge watching (incidentally the first week of my summer holiday) I am now up to #1610 and have run out of new episodes to watch for the time being.
I will not spoil anything, but to me the whole Thorne and Macy's separation/Macy's alcoholism started out feeling a bit underdeveloped (as if the writers had this lighthearted Cyrano de Bergerac story in mind at first but then changed their minds and suddenly decided to go dark instead and send Macy into a downward spiral). But IMO it gets better and better as it finds its pace and gets more time to develop. I think where I am at now, it has played a lot of beats, many of them very poignant, and is shaping up to be the best addiction story arc that I can recall on this show. Also, I think Macy's character makes a believable alcoholic - she always had an emotional vulnerability and the drinking seems like an extension of that.