Videnbas

I don't think Brooke was necessarily the heroine. But I think the writers must have seen very early on that the rivalry between Brooke and Stephanie was where they struck gold. So that became central to the show.

11 hours ago, Soapfan8 said:

 Thoughts?

I don't really see the significance. Hunter Tylo's leaving in 2002 was only for a few years. Then she was back. I never saw her as the show's "main star" even when she was on the show, so I don't really see what magic those few additional years would have worked.

The thing is, Taylor was never that central to the show. She left several times and the show went on.

But then again, I am one of those who just simply never saw the appeal of the Taylor character. She always seemed kind of wooden to me.

Re-watching now (currently at late 1991), I am really trying to give her a chance, since I've changed my perception of several other characters already when seeing them the second time around, but so far, she leaves me cold, as does Tridge. I actually think out of all the men she has interacted with so far, Ridge is the one she has the least chemistry with. I just keep seeing how when they are supposed to kiss and so on, Taylor's hand keeps popping up like a stop sign between their bodies.

9 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

From a writer's perspective, I am enjoying seeing Clarke Garrison try to extract himself from every predicament that he gets himself into. Also from a writer's perspective, I do take issue with the aspect of hiding that Margo and Clarke had consummated their relationship until the reveal of Margo's pregnancy. It seems like a cheat, especially on a soap opera where romance and betrayal are totems of drama. I get that they wanted to surprise, even shock the audience but it also undermines Margo's claim of having a loving, serious relationship (one in which she believed was leading to marriage) I saw no evidence of Clarke even pretending to have anything close to a serious relationship with Margo, so I don't even know where she draws that conclusion, other than she ran away with some fantasy. It made me wonder if the possibility of pulling out Bill Spence as a father were not under consideration and honestly, it would have added an interesting wrinkle if Bill were genuinely a candidate for Mark's father, but Margo didn't want to even entertain that notion due to her desire to have that long lasting tie to Clarke. Decades later, I think it would have been much more interesting if Mark were a Spencer rather than a Garrison.

I agree with you about Clarke Garrison! He is thoroughly enjoyable because his undoing is so clearly a result of his overconfidence (and this is a running theme in all of his storylines). I feel like he is an almost mythologically inspired character trope in that regard - the man whose strength (his arrogance, cleverness and charm) also is the root of his downfall. Seeing Clarke painting himself into corners and then trying to get out of them is a lot of fun. 

As for Margo's pregnancy, I believe the reason it was written that way was that Lauren Koslow was already pregnant and they had to find a way to write it in without shortening the pregnancy too much. I agree the reveal was something of a surprise but not entirely out of left field. 

1 hour ago, Orea Mou Kiria said:

Maya on B&B. This could have been iconic. Something that would draw the attention of non-soap fans.  Brad Bell managed to make it boring, the story played out like a fairytale.

Plus the casting for such a character was all wrong.

I agree with this! The premise of pairing Rick with a trans woman could have been groundbreaking.

But there were three major mistakes in the storytelling.

The first was doing this reveal about a character whose backstory included a pregnancy and searching for the child she gave up for adoption.

The second was making the storyline too conflict-free. Maya met with virtually no resistance and ended up getting her every wish fulfilled without even having to fight for it (since all of her struggles had already taken place off screen before we met her).

The third was introducing Maya as the heroine in this storyline when she was already in the middle of another storyline where she and Rick were the villains, and then painting other characters' legitimate dislike of Maya as transphobic, as if her being trans suddenly made her immune to criticism. 

9 minutes ago, Soapfan8 said:

When did you stop liking Brooke?

When she went after Thorne. That was really the eye-opener for me.

And then, going back to watch the show from the beginning, I saw her in a completely different light, noticing things about her that I missed the first time around and how she wasn't at all the heroine I had thought she was.

By the way, interesting to notice that so far, the only characters who made it on everyone's list are Sally and Thorne!

15 hours ago, Soapfan8 said:

Quick survey rank your top 5 favorite bold female characters and top 5 male characters of all times.

Female:
1. Macy (though perhaps a less "important" character than some of the names further down my list, I always found her the most relatable)
2. Sally
3. Stephanie
4. Sheila
5. Brooke (I don't actually like Brooke, at least not anymore, but I just think she is too important to the show to leave out)
Honorable mentions: Darla, Aly, Stacy the waitress

Male:
1. Thorne
2. CJ
3. Clarke (I didn't feel that way before, but rewatching old episodes with him now, I have gained a whole new appreciation for him - he is hilarious in all his glorious unapologetic arrogance)
4. Deacon
5. A tie between Ridge and Eric (for the same reasons as Brooke above)
Honorable mentions: Saul, Mike, Rocco, Charlie

B&B: Sheila and Deacon. 

12 minutes ago, Manny said:

Oh I just got to the episode when Ridge and Brooke go to the Big Bear cabin and then Thorne and Caroline show up. Cannot wait to see what happens next, but gotta go to the hairdresser haha

And the scene with Eric and Stephanie when they realize both couples went up there and then they laugh.. so good haha

I know, that scene is priceless! I have to wonder if that was scripted or if it was a blooper that was just so good they left it in there. 

3 hours ago, rsclassicfanforever said:

Yesterday i added Episodes 1426-1429 

its not much, but soon you all will get more

Thank you so much! I was so excited to see them in the Vault!

13 hours ago, ironlion said:

Many people say that much like Y&R there was a lull in the mid 90s on Bold. Somewhere around 94-96. What were some factors, particularly storyline wise, that lead to this?

I wouldn't say all of 1994-1996 were slow on B&B (in fact, some of my favorite storylines are from those years, and 1994 to mid 1995 the show was great IMO).

But IIRC there was a noticeable dip after the summer of 1995 after they happened to have ALL the major storylines resolve and end almost at the same time (Ridge made his choice between Brooke and Taylor, Thorne was let out of jail and Anthony was arrested for murdering Ivana, Sheila attempted suicide and got locked up). The show was kind of slow for a while after that.

Another random thought that hit me while watching the old episodes (I'm halfway through 1991 at the moment) is how one crucial type of interaction was present then but is largely missing from today's show.

I call it the "window to the soul" relationship. That is, a character who acts as a (sometimes therapeutic) sounding board for another character's thoughts and feelings, so that through this interaction we get to know what goes on inside that character - a window to their soul. This relationship's main (or sole) purpose is to deepen the characterization of one or both characters, because it allows us to hear the characters' inner voice spoken out loud. This "humanizes" the character (at least, to me it does). And a character who doesn't have this kind of relationship just seems less relatable.

It's usually either a close friendship or a close family relationship. NOT a romantic relationship because the romantic relationship is often the thing being talked *about* in this type of relationship. It's a relationship based on trust and honesty - there is virtually no lying in this kind of relationship, and if there is, it is immediately called out.

There are so many good examples from the early years of the show:

Ridge helped us get to know Stephanie because she showed her most private side to him (and only him).

Sally and Macy were built entirely on this trope (in their case, it went both ways).

Mike helped us understand the motivation behind Sheila's madness because she confided in him.

Even a peripheral character like Blake Hayes had his random encounters with Margo that served solely as a way for two rather lonely characters to get an opportunity to speak (tell the audience) about what was going on inside them.

Both within the Forrester and Logan families, there have been seeds of these kind of relationships between siblings, although the constellations of trust have not been as permanent.

Interestingly, Taylor is the one major character that comes to mind who (as of 1991) does NOT have this kind of sounding board. And as a result, she comes across as kind of enigmatic.

23 minutes ago, Marquise said:

But it seem the episodes are not from Videoland which means we have another Angel. Thank you!

Hope all is fine with the other one! Fingers crossed!

That is wonderful news! Hope all is well with the Videoland Angel! 

Are these episodes from the new Angel also complete and in good quality? 

2 hours ago, FrenchBug82 said:

We had a conversation here a few months ago where people were finding it an interesting coincidence that three of the Thornes turned out to be Trumpers.
So I was left with that impression but maybe I or someone in the initial conversation got their wires crossed with his impersonation or with Norcross?
The fact he is gay, however, is not a reason to be skeptical. You would be shocked (I know I am appalled every time) how many gay men are/were wholehearted supporters of Trump.
Either way it is not the most botched plastic surgery I have seen (at least on photo) but he doesn't look like himself.

Yeah, I'm not saying he is or he isn't a Trumper, I just meant I haven't been able to find anything definitive beyond certain indications that could go both ways. I get the impression he is eager not to alienate anyone on either side of the political spectrum, so whatever his views, he is deliberately not very vocal about them.

Anyway, I agree the plastic surgery is not what I'd call botched, but not completely natural looking either.

2 hours ago, FrenchBug82 said:

It is ironic considering they share their politics but doesn't his pulled and tucked face look give Ingo vibes? Is it just me?

I agree there is a certain visual resemblance! 

On a side note out of curiosity - are you sure about the politics thing? I kvow Ingo has been pretty vocal about his views but I don't see Jeff stating his political views anywhere. A web search says he is a registered Democrat who did Trump impersonations, and he also appears to be in a long-term same-sex marriage/relationship.

4 hours ago, BoldKara said:

I always wondered why he needed to be recast - was it something he did? - or they decided they needed "singing Thorne" and Norcross couldn't sing (that's what I assumed)?

I don't think the singing was the reason for the recast - I remember reading that Thorne singing was Trachta's idea when he was already on the show. 

But I have to say in retrospect I'm glad the recast happened when it did because I don't really think Thorne/Macy would have worked without it (Norcross and Eakes didn't really click in their one scene together). 

36 minutes ago, Aback said:

He even penned a letter for Lee Bell, a few years ago, to beg for forgiveness and to be brought back on the show. I would totally be for it.

It's amazing he's still living off the popularity of those couple of years on B&B in Italy.

I think the character Thorne should be on the show, but I don't think I could accept yet another recast after the last one failed. So if they do bring back Thorne (and it seems Winsor is no longer an option) I would like it to be either Clayton Norcross or Jeff Trachta, depending on what storylines the character would be involved in. 

9 hours ago, AusBoldFan said:

Just flagging, episode 429 and 503 need replacing in the Vault. The fashion show music are muted. Both episodes are from Amy’s YT rip. Hopefully when the official YT channel gets to these episodes someone can swap it out.

I believe episode 503 has already been reuploaded with sound. Not sure about ep 429.

On 1/12/2022 at 9:24 AM, Manny said:

I am not a fan of opera, but omg this is very interesting!

Did you also find any similarities with the course of stories? I mean, I assume there is similarities, just wondering to which degree.

Thanks for sharing!!

The similarities lie mainly in the starting point of the stories, and the personalities and backstories of the characters. As the story goes on, the two plots diverge more and more.

So it’s basically the premise that is the same, or the very beginning of each character’s story arc.

For example, Ridge/Don Giovanni is a playboy who routinely and casually seduces women and then leaves them. He keeps a record of ”his” women in a little book that he carries with him. He is wealthy, arrogant, charming, irreverent and hedonistic. His arrogance is probably his greatest flaw and fatal weakness.

Margo/Donna Elvira is introduced to us as one of Ridge’s/Don Giovanni’s past conquests. She fell in love with him but he dumped her and she is filled with anger and bitterness towards her past lover, but also has a soft spot for him and is on some level still attracted to him. She tries to keep new women from falling into the playboy’s trap.

Bill Spencer/The Commendatore is the powerful and protective father of Ridge’s/Don Giovanni’s latest conquest, the noble Caroline/Donna Anna. He is a commanding and intimidating man. He finds out that the playboy is after his daughter and this results in violent animosity between the two men, where Ridge/Don Giovanni gets the upper hand at first. But shortly after, the father gets his revenge by bringing the playboy down as a result of his own immoral actions.

Brooke/Zerlina and Dave/Masetto are ordinary people who are about to start a life together when Brooke/Zerlina becomes starstruck with the seductive and worldly Ridge/Don Giovanni and immediately forgets all about her intended husband, who is not nearly as glamorous, when the playboy awakens her sensual side.

Rocco and Leporello also share some similarities. They are both basically the playboy’s comedic sidekick/employee, ”lower class” although they dream of having the same kind of status as their master/boss themselves one day. And they sometimes get their boss out of trouble. But Leporello is a lot more disillusioned and less enthusiastic about his position than the much younger Rocco is.

Oh, and there is also the part of the story where Ridge/Don Giovanni quietly sneaks into Caroline’s/Donna Anna’s room at night to seduce her and she at first mistakes him for her spouse Thorne/Don Ottavio, who swears vengeance when he finds out about it. At a later point, Thorne/Don Ottavio pulls a gun on Ridge/Don Giovanni. (And it remains ambiguous throughout the story whether or not Caroline/Donna Anna was taken advantage of or whether she actually consented to being seduced by Ridge/Don Giovanni.)

End of thesis, lol!

On 1/12/2022 at 4:29 PM, Soapfan8 said:

Team Caroline or Brooke anyone?

To me, that is like asking me which star in the constellation of Orion is my favorite. They all catch my eye, some shine a bit brighter than others, but what really gives them meaning is their relationship to the other stars, and the pattern that emerges when you look at all of them together.

For me, the characters of early B&B were like stars in a constellation. They all work together to tell a story and paint a certain picture. It's impossible for me to reduce that complexity to a competition between teams. 

20 hours ago, Broderick said:

If Rocco ever sings "Night & Day, I Slave Away" while Ridge seduces Caroline, we'll know they copied, lol.  (Ridge does seem pretty closely modeled on Don Juan.) 

LOL, yeah, that would be a dead give away!

Yes, it was Ridge's obvious similarities to Don Juan that took me down the rabbit hole (especially when the show started repeatedly mentioning his "little black book"). And then as I was preparing a lecture om Mozart I revisited a couple of scenes from the opera and I suddenly started seeing B&B characters in all the roles and it was an eerily good fit.

This may seem a random question, but... is anyone else here interested in opera?

I remember a discussion a while back about character archetypes in B&B, and the other night when I was watching clips of Mozart's opera Don Giovanni (Don Juan), it suddenly hit me.

Early B&B of 1987-1988 features EVERY SINGLE ONE of the characters in Don Giovanni.

Don Giovanni (high social status, playboy, arrogant, charming, keeps a list of women in a little book) - Ridge
Leporello (low social status, employed by Don Giovanni, loyal to his boss but dreams of being his equal in status, knows about the little book) - Rocco
Donna Elvira (was seduced by Don Giovanni and then dumped by him, is fiercely bitter but still attracted to him) - Margo
Donna Anna (high social status, Don Giovanni snuck into her room at night and seduced her, it is unclear if this was with or without her consent) - Caroline
The Commendatore (high social status, Donna Anna's father, very protective of his daughter, Don Giovanni's nemesis) - Bill Spencer
Don Ottavio (high social status, Donna Anna's fiancé, loyal, gentle and supportive of her) - Thorne
Zerlina (low social status, starts out as a happily engaged and innocent young girl but is seduced by Don Giovanni and dumps her fiancé in order to be with him) - Brooke
Masetto (low social status, decent man who gets dumped by his fiancée because of her fascination for the attractive and rich Don Giovanni) - Dave

Of course, the opera has a different story, but the characters and several plot points are very similar. This is probably not intentional, but it's interesting nevertheless because it proves the archetypal nature of the early B&B characters.

3 hours ago, sheilaforever said:

I liked ALL of Felicia's pairing but not this one. The story with Ganz was just too bad. Actually the whole Hamilton faily angles leave rather dry and cold. Just yesterday I say the big reunion at the chapel between Taylor/Jack/Zach. IMO, the writing was just not there for any of this. Maybe it's because Taylor's backstory was always developed as the story progressed unlike other Bill Bell characters who are clearly defined. The only thing established for Taylor was that she met Storm at college and has an ex husband. Blake failed to the extent that he was nothing more but a plot device to stir up trouble for Ridge&Brooke and Zach/Jack have too little connection to Taylor's actual on-screen life. Taylor/Jack were an okay father/daughter eventually, especially when she came back from her first death.

I am glad it's not just me having issues with the development of Taylor's character. Where I am right now (mid 1991), she has been on the show for over a year, and I STILL don't quite feel like I "know" her the way I feel like I know the other characters. I keep waiting for that feeling of familiarity to come but so far it hasn't. It's like she still hasn't been given a POV - we see her almost entirely through the eyes of others - Storm's eyes, Ridge's eyes, Brooke's eyes, Blake's eyes. But we haven't yet seen her perspective and what we do see is contradictory. She "tries out" Storm's engagement ring while continuing to date Ridge. Then she ends it with Storm but is dating, and sleeping with, both Ridge and Blake. And it's never quite clear how she feels about that (apart from when she educates the men on how they should court her).

It's almost as if she is upstaged by her own beauty.

I am currently watching episodes from summer 1991, and one thing just struck me.

In the history of B&B, we have several times had a storyline where a woman wanting to wait until marriage to have sex, or "save herself for the right guy", is seen as a sign that she has morals/values/character strength/whatever. The same expectations have never once been expressed for any male character.

But these episodes in 1991 is the first (only?) time I've seen the other side of these gender stereotypes. Jake and Felicia are actually breaking up because of Jake's inexperience! The story goes that since Jake hasn't been with any other woman besides Felicia (due to his childhood abuse), he has actually missed out on important developmental milestones, so both of them agree that he needs to go be with other women in order to become a whole, healthy person (even though he loves Felicia and has a sexually satisfying relationship with her).

And it just hit me - what if the genders were reversed? Would anyone on this soap EVER advise a woman to leave a fulfilling stable relationship with a man because she needed "more experience"? I have a very hard time picturing that happening, even today.

Yes, thank you so very much for the new uploads! It's so exciting that we are so close to having all of 1992!

3 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

Does anyone think Mick would have worked had a different actor played him?  

I hadn't seen season 3 for awhile..but I recall he still wanted Kristen...but was also being pursued by Macy (pre Thorne)...while Donna kind of liked him..yet also knew he was leading Macy on.  I'm wondering had a different actor played Mick..if all that would have continued instead of all that being dropped.

I can't help but think that Mick was always intended to be a short term character who served as a catalyst for other characters' development. I think he was cast exactly with this plot function in mind, and left when that mission was accomplished.

The way I see it, he had two main roles:

1) To break up Clarke and Kristen in a way that would make Clarke the injured party (in spite of Clarke having been the "bad guy" in the relationship up until that point). This gave Clarke a motivation for being bitter towards the Forresters and drove him firmly into the Spectra camp in the upcoming Spectra/Forrester feud, as well as freeing him up to marry Sally.

2) To flesh out Macy's character and strenghten her bond with Sally. Macy was an entirely new and unknown character at the time who needed to be developed in order for the viewers to get invested in her (in anticipation of the Macy/Thorne storyline). Her being led on by Mick and having her heart broken accomplished that, and put her in a position where pairing her with Thorne (who had also recently been dumped) felt organic. It was also the final push that made Macy develop her characteristically close (almost symbiotic) relationship with her mother.