Videnbas

So I know we've been speculating a bit about when Brad Bell took over as head writer and when he started influencing the writing. I was just watching episode 1301 (from 1992) and it seems to me like there's a HUGE shift in the writing in that episode. Not entirely out of character writing, but massive shifts towards the extreme and villainous in characters like Stephanie and Blake. Did anyone else notice it? Could this be Brad's influence?

57 minutes ago, rsclassicfanforever said:

I will add the missing minutes, when im on count with the VL episodes of this week

Thank you so much! You are amazing for taking the time to upload all these episodes!

1 hour ago, divinemotion said:

Thank God for you and the other angels!!!!!!!!!!!!! I really don't know how to be thankful enough. I just watched some of the new episodes and sobbed... ive waited 20 years for this... thank you for making it happen.

I feel the same - getting to watch my favorite period of B&B again after 25+ years is a dream come true!

54 minutes ago, rsclassicfanforever said:

I uploaded until episode 1582.

The episode with Brooke and Stephanies bitchfight at the  end

Thank you so much! This is wonderful news! I have been looking for these 1993 episodes for as long as I can remember.

By the way, is there any way you could upload the last few minutes or so of 1554? They seem to be missing.

11 hours ago, divinemotion said:

I am sorry to disagree again... I thought Aly to be a complete caricature and disgusting and not realistic portrayal of schizophrenia. It actually was near camp... so absurd and stupid the way Bradley took the character. It was very cheap and for ratings. I didnt find any depth and any characterization. It was the same old soap opera crazy stalker Angela type cliche... but this time done so 1 note and so disrespectful... 

But that was just her final three weeks (and btw I thought Ashlyn Pearce did a wonderful job rising above the mediocre writing).

I'm talking about Aly's entire run. We learned more about Aly as a person in a short time than they ever bothered showing us about any other character in her generation. And her storylines were based around her personality, not her love life.

Little things like her hobbies and quirks (dressing up in Medieval clothing, writing in her diary, declining a date because of her goldfish's feeding schedule), and her special bond with Pam (who was usually not taken seriously by the rest of her family).

Her grief and the trauma of what happened to her mother, and the initially sweet relationship between her and the imaginary Darla.

Her naiveté and obsessive idealism.

Her anger issues that went back to when she was four years old.

Her sweet awkwardness in her first romance with Oliver, and how he helped build up her confidence and mental stability.

Her combination of academic precociousness and emotional immaturity.

Her inability to understand metaphors, subtext and nuances, instead interpreting everything literally and in black or white (I wondered at the time if the actress tried to portray Aly with high-functioning autism).

Her touching bond with Thorne.

Her dream of becoming a shoe designer. 

That is a lot more fleshed out and complex characterization than we've had for most other new young characters. And it was done without getting Aly caught up in some silly triangle - the character itself was the driving force in her storylines.

9 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Oh, I meant the overall concept of super couples in soaps general. I haven’t even looked at B&B that closely to assess it. 
I do remember those sparkling ads that used to run during CBS Daytime in ‘87, in late January and throughout February before B&B debuted in March of that year and it was clear that they were promoting Ridge and Caroline in particular, as the “Golden Couple”. 
Do you remember those promos? It was pretty rude that they aired them during Capitol, lol.

The idea of promoting your soap based on couples, which is what many soaps did, after the success of Luke and Laura on GH, was always going to be a double-edged sword on shows that increasingly relied on shifting romantic relationships to keep the drama going. 

But being specific to B&B, the over-reliance on romantic triangles always annoyed me somewhat.

I think the mistake in trying to build a soap on pairing characters up, or putting them in triangles, is that no relationship is more interesting than the characters involved. If you don't first care about the characters individually, how can you be made to care about what happens to them and who they are with? B&B makes this mistake a lot these days. Instead of exploring a character in depth - what motivates them, what are their strengths and weaknesses, their wants and fears - they just throw them into different relationships and then break the relationships up and move on to the next with no emotional impact. Everyone seems interchangeable to everyone else.

The only example of character-based writing I can think of in (fairly) recent years was Aly. She had an actual inner life. An actual personality. If I look at the current set of characters on B&B and try to describe their personalities, in most cases I simply can't (or only in very generic terms like "Sheila is crazy" or "Deacon is a bad boy trying to be good"). Looking at the classic episodes I could write pages and pages about each and every character.

34 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

It’s also the analysis and discussion that I prefer to engage in. I like to look at specific aspects of the writing and production, as well as performance.

JMO but I am a believer that, just as the “supercouple” idea seemed like a good idea initially, before turning corrosive, I do believe that the aspect of Stan  culture has had a similar effect, especially when the producers, execs and writers whose work isn’t strong enough to both absorb and withstand intrusive and destabilizing influence let stans dictate what ultimately appears onscreen.

‘It’s refreshing to strip away all of those marginal aspects from the equation and look at what’s vital to the storytelling.

Do you have examples of successful and/or unsuccessful writing for "supercouples" on B&B? Or examples of when fan influence worked well or not so well on the show?

For me, one major problem seems to be the over-reliance on triangles as plot device. Nothing kills a character, or a romantic pairing, faster than a poorly constructed triangle. And by that I mean a triangle that follows the rules of sports (teams fighting to win a prize) rather than drama (characters developing and experiencing conflict). 

38 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

So appreciate your analysis. 
The bloviating that often comes with discussion of soap characters on SM usually takes me right out of any discussions. Yours is the kind of discussion I can get into.

Thank you! I really find that what I enjoy the most is plot and character analysis (or analysis of just about anything related to the show). It's usually more enjoyable to me when the whole "taking sides" aspect is taken out of the equation, even though I do have a handful of favorites that I will defend no matter what (the characters that is, not necessarily their actions). What I enjoy about the writing in the early years is that it was so nuanced that there were very few clear-cut heroes or villains. Instead, the characters become a sort of Rorschach test that viewers can project their own lives and relationships on. It has been very clear to me in the case of Brooke and Stephanie, for example. The first time I watched the show as a young girl, I saw Brooke as the heroine and Stephanie as the evil villain. Rewatching the same episodes now as a mother, I am entirely on Stephanie's side and find Brooke totally unrelatable.

24 minutes ago, divinemotion said:

I do not agree. Respectfully. Caroline is an embodiment of entitlement, selfishness and privilege. She is incredibly rude to her father, her mother in law, she destroyed Thorne... But the high of the monster she was... was when Brooke was having an abortion and she was lurking in the corner... probably praying the baby will die. Even Thorne and Stephanie told her it's no appropriate for her to be there. Thank God the character died and in the end was a bit more tolerable, after she got her EGO prize aka worst acting in history - Ridge...  

Her sister was equally vomit inducing... but thank God did not have the main storylines as did the cheating, lying, selfish monster.

Again... I am a victim of a partner like Caroline... I was the Thorne... So this woman just disgusts me in very deep way. So... no hard feelings... I am just talking about a character. Not the actress.

Of course, it's all just an interesting discussion and I think it's amazing how we all bring our own perspectives to the characters based on our own life experiences.

What I was trying to say was that I found Caroline psychologically interesting, without really feeling the need to side with or against the character. To me the part of her that intrigued me (although in a kind of uncomfortable way) was the cognitive dissonance between her self image and her repressed feelings. We all like to see ourselves as good people, and yet we are all capable of thoughts and actions that are not so good and that we'd be ashamed to admit even to ourselves. And then there's this effort of rationalization which was portrayed so well with Caroline (her trying to justify herself, to herself). I'm not saying she did the right thing (she didn't) but it was interesting to me to see her trying to sort herself out. There was just this gap between her true self and how she was used to seeing herself. 

Maybe it would be possible to save 1549 in a few shorter sections? Or whatever part plays before Videoland breaks the episode?

The Sally/Stephanie scene from 1549 is already in the clips section, and I have found a clip with what I believe is another 5 minutes of the 1549 ep (the Thorne/Macy scene outside the Bikini bar) that I could upload, so we'd at least have about half the episode until it can be solved.

21 minutes ago, rsclassicfanforever said:

Everything will come online guys. I started recording episodes from VL

Someone provided the login credentials

they are coming in the next days 

YOU.ARE.AMAZING! Thank you, thank you, thank you - I am so excited to hear this wonderful news that I'd be jumping up and down if my 4 year old wasn't trying to sleep in the next room! Being able to rewatch this "long lost" part of B&B is something I've hoped for for so many years!

2 hours ago, divinemotion said:

Caroline.

1. Marries a man out of pity and lies to herself and him that she loves him all while looking out of windows... watching his shirtless brother. Disgusting. Poor Thorne.

2.Talks to his mother like she is some kind of a dog, while living in HER house. Dangles for months and months the decision to leave her husband, while making everyone's life miserable. Will not leave the house and refuses to go on a trip with her husband... because she can't be away from HER BROTHER IN LAW. DISGUSTING.

3.Tries to stop an engagement while the other woman is PREGNANT. Doubts the woman's pregnancy and acts like spoiled brat that deserves a great prize - Ridge. Goes to the hospital and looks into the room while the WOMAN IS ABORTING THE child. WHY? Imagine the woman that wants your man... staring through the door while you are aborting. DISGUSTING:

4.Has sex with her brother IN LAW, while her husband is in the kitchen... First lies to herself and everyone that she didn't know it was RIDGE who was MAKING love with her. LOL. The day I mistake my husband for someone else... please shoot me. THEN ADMITS to KNOWING IT was RIDGE ALL ALONG and actually WANTING the sex. DISGUSTING. POOR THORNE.

5. Has done nothing in life to deserve anything. EVERYTHING is GIVEN to her and she always complains.  ALWAYS is not happy. ALWAYS

6. Screams and yells at the man who told her that her fiance cheated on her and gave her her job... her father.

 

I can continue and continue.

This character is symbol of everything I don't like - entitled, spoiled, ungrateful, cheating, lying.

Please do not start personal attack towards me. I AM commenting A CHARACTER from a soap opera. I have the right.

Caroline for me was like the DEATH, she just created misery every step of her life. Misery after misery.

 

To me, Caroline was a complex character. She started out innocent and idealistic, and then gradually had to learn the hard way that nothing in the world is as perfect as it first seems - including herself.

Caroline's whole story arc is about disillusionment and acceptance. A series of tough awakenings and coming to terms with them. First Ridge's cheating, then encountering evil in the form of a sexual predator, then learning about the dark side of her father's business, and finally learning about her own repressed "forbidden" desires. And Caroline had to face the reality of who she was and all the damage she had caused by repressing her true feeling. 

I am just catching up on this year's B&B, and in case anyone missed it, Sheila swapped a couple of labels on a couple of champagne bottles, leading to Brooke and Deacon sharing a drunken kiss on New Year's Eve.

So I started counting the references to those *beep* champagne bottles and that *beep* New Year's Eve kiss.

In January 2022 alone (20 episodes), the show felt it was necessary to have a total of 9 flashbacks of Sheila and her champagne bottles. And it was also absolutely necessary to have no less than 22 flashbacks of Brooke and Deacon on New Year's Eve (trust me, I counted). And that's not even counting all the times the events of that night were discussed by characters on the show.

40 minutes ago, Tonksadora said:

Wow! Do you happen to know if that is well represented on YouTube?

The story itself is not very well represented on Youtube, only bits and pieces here and there, but there is this clip from the funeral scene. It doesn't get much soapier than Stephanie Forrester roaring "WHO THE HELL IS IN THE COFFIN!".

I only watch B&B, but the storyline that stands out for me is Macy's first death in 2000.

It was built kind of like a classic tragedy - her fate was essentially sealed six months in advance in Venice, ironically through a scheme designed to save another character (Stephanie) from dying. And from that point on, the whole chain of events was set in motion towards inevitable catastrophe, fueled by the inescapable character flaws of everyone involved. The result was that when Macy died, virtually every single major cast member played a part in causing her death. The confrontation that followed at the funeral was one of the most intense scenes the show has ever done.

And there was also a nice sense of poetic symmetry in how the story began and ended exactly the same way - with Macy making an impulsive journey in pursuit of Thorne to warn him about Brooke.

5 hours ago, sheilaforever said:

Karen was a creation of Bill Bell who did not step down as headwriter from B&B until the middle of Karen's original run. When JJ left again, it might have been her choice again because she was just not into acting that much and wanted to become a fulltime writer...

Yes, I'm currently watching Karen's introduction storyline and she is a "well-developed undeveloped character". That is, she comes on the show almost as a "blank slate", this girl who hasn't had much life experience, and she's caught up in Blake's agenda to turn her into a second Caroline. She doesn't have a strong identity of her own, instead trying to emulate Caroline's identity, but that chameleon-like quality in itself is her identity. She is basically manipulated into giving up any sense of independent self she has in order to copy somebody else. And the fact that she is vulnerable to that kind of mind games really says a lot about her character - her sense of loss after learning of the sister she found out too late that she had. And so she is groomed to become a cheap imitation of Caroline, but this is not a result of poor writing but a result of good writing as we see Blake's scheme on full display, along with the factors that make Karen ready to go along with it.

Just now, Liberty City said:

Maybe if Joanna Johnson had stuck around as Caroline this could've happened, and maybe we wouldn't have been saddled with Don Diamont's Bill.

We still have Caroline's twin sister. If the show wanted to bring back the Spencers, why not let Karen be the one running the publishing empire instead of some son we never heard about (and still to this day his existence has not been explained - we don't even know who his mother is or where he fits into the Spencer family timeline). Karen still owns 50% of SP and we NEVER hear it mentioned. 

28 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

I do recall it mentioned that money from her family bankrolled the business.  I always figured she handled the business aspect while Eric handled the creative.

In regards to their kids:

Thorne usually handled the supply chain and orders/logistics..I assume.

Ridge was a designer and had a sexual vibe to his designs that clashed with Eric's more timeless approach.

Felicia was the free spirit, whose designs didn't fit at Forrester's..and her working at Spectra was never developed.  Rebel daughter working for the enemy.

Kristen was a designer, but I often thought she only went into that because of her father..not because she had the talent or passion.  I always thought she would have worked better as a model/spokesperson.

 

And out of all the Logans, Donna made the most sense being in the fashion world with her modeling, and later getting a taste of the publishing world.  I have a feeling her getting an offer to work at Spencer Publications in early 1991 by Bill (done to stick it to Margo) would have been pursued had the original Donna opted to renew her contract.

I often have thought Heather Tom should have been Donna instead of Katie.  In fact, a lot of Katie's stories in the 2000s/2010s seemed to be more Donna stories (going by the foundation laid out by Bill Bell in the early years)

I think Felicia's working for Spectra was a pretty well developed storyline. She was there for several years and her motivation for (and against) working for "the enemy" was explored. Sally and Felicia had an interesting dynamic where the friction between them, and Sally's tough demands on her, actually pushed Felicia to develop as an artist, almost in spite of herself. 

7 hours ago, ironlion said:

could it be said that Queen Stephanie ever ate B&B, or that Erica ever ate AMC.

I can't really answer about Erica since I never watched AMC regularly, but as for Stephanie, I'd say no. You can't "eat" the show if you ARE the show. Stephanie was always central to the premise of the show and she is basically what made the show what it was.

Besides, Stephanie never felt like the writers' "pet project" or "shiny new toy" the way characters like Amber or Hope did. Stephanie was simply the glue that held it all together.

Does anyone have any news on the Videoland episodes? It’s been a while and I remember reading a post from one of the uploaders that the account he had been using to access the site was no longer active. I hope someone will be able to continue eventually because these 1993 episodes are so hard to find and really the show's golden era IMO!

23 minutes ago, Huntress said:

B&B: Amber from early 1998 to 2002.

Oh yes, the Amber years! That was the first character I felt Brad Bell got a little too invested in (the second being Hope).

8 hours ago, sheilaforever said:

I couldn't agree more about Sally.

 

As for Caroline: I also really liked that she had a career in journalism. Sure, she only got the chance due to daddy, but it added something valuable to the character for the couple of months where they heavily used Eye on Fashion as well as Valerie as her sidekick. This was of course still in the days where Brooke has a respectable career as a chemist. For the past 10 years Brooke has been walking around LA minding everyone's business but no longer seems to be nvolved with real business which is a shame.

I think Brooke is another example of negative character development. She used to have a whole professional side to her character that has been completely lost in later years.

B&B: Hope/Liam/Steffy

16 minutes ago, Soapfan8 said:

Who do you think had the best character development?

Wow, that's a great question!

Caroline started out as an ingénue, and gradually developed more layers and shades of grey as her initial idealism clashed with the real world and her own real emotions.

Sally started out as a two-dimensional over-the-top villain, but the longer she was on the show, the more layers started showing. We got to see her humorous side, her affection for her employees, her love for her daughter, her vulnerability to Clarke, and so on. The on screen development of her close relationship with Macy was also beautifully done.

9 hours ago, SAPOUNOPERA said:

I think that 1989 was way too soon for the show to give up on the "normal" characters. Beth was replaced by Sally, Macy took over from the Logan girls. From one point I understand that Bill Bell wanted to move the show to the 90s, focus on the fashion world and the rich LA people.But B&B lost something (its heart?) when it became all about the Forresters.

I actually saw it the opposite way - with the introduction of the Spectras (which coincided with the phasing out of the Logans), the show *found* its heart. I saw a much warmer camaraderie and more solid family loyalty with the original Spectra core gang (Sally, Macy, Saul, Darla) than I ever did with the Logans. The Logans had just as much internal conflict as the Forresters in those early days (Donna flirting with Rocco while setting him up with Katie, Grandma and Beth at odds over Beth's affair with Eric, the family basically being divided into two opposing camps over Stephen's return, and eventually Brooke's relationship with her mother's "true love"). Besides, the "close Logan family" was not sustainable anyway because we were introduced to them at a point in time when all the kids were about to "leave the nest". That was bound to change the dynamic. 

3 hours ago, divinemotion said:

I do not agree. I couldnt wait for Beth... Katie... Rocco... Mark... to go away... Sally Spectra coming gave the show more upbeat, funny energy... I do not think the dialogue is sleazy... its just real. I was tired from all the safe dialogue and boring undramatic scenes from the first couple of hundred of episodes. The show got better from mid 1989 and it gets better and better. I agree only that Kristens storyline seemed a bit rushed and the character of Mick Savage was very poorly acted by an actor that I find unbearable to watch. I think there are spots in 1992.1993 when its getting little cheap... but its overall the best of times. I find that the character that started losing dept later on... after 1991... was Stephanie. She started to go from 0 to 100 without the agression build up. She had a bully energy but no the sophisticated one from 1987.1991 ... she just seemed rushed by the writers. But I loved her...

I agree the show got more dynamic around 1989. And yes, out of all the characters, Stephanie is the one that has truly had a "negative" character development. She started out incredibly complex and then gradually started *losing* layers. Her subtlety in the early years was a joy to watch. At the end, she was a shadow of her former self.

2 hours ago, YRfan23 said:

I usually consider 2002 to be the last year B&B was good, but I’m starting to feel like   it was consistent till 2005. Something happen with all the soaps in 2006 and it just went downhill from there..

I also think of 2002/2003 as the end of the "golden era" of B&B. The last time the show was truly great in my opinion was the wonderful Portofino/Camogli location shoot.

To me, the introduction on Nick and Jackie in 2003 marked a clear shift in the focus of the show (the Spectras started being phased out and were replaced with the Marones).