JarrodMFiresofLove

Thanks for clarifying. I would have said the same thing about Pam or Meg. That they were Nella's friend. My comments are not racially motivated. I am just commenting on how the writers used the characters, all characters.

Of course her appearances pre-date her friendship with Meg. My comment about her and Meg was to indicate that friendship started before her friendship with Pam. I said she started as a friend of Meg's then became a friend of Pam's too. But I did not say she started on the show as a friend of Meg's. Make sense? So let's not try to correct other people's posts all the time. This is a conversation, sharing memories of the show. I do appreciate the details you provided about the abortion story. I still think Marland could have developed the Franklins a bit better. To me it felt like they got lost in the shuffle, probably because Marland had so many characters he was writing for at the same time.

She used to post on the message board for his page on the IMDb, before those message boards were taken down. I had watched an episode of Simon & Simon in which he guest-starred and checked out his message board to see if people still remembered him. She seemed very nice in her comments about him, written after his death. She explained how they left New York and moved to L.A. after his role on GL ended. She did not know why the show recast Justin instead of asking him back. She said he loved playing that character. But she never mentioned his affairs. Here's her blog about his career, her career and the book: http://thomasorourkeactor.blogspot.com/

I remember the Franklins. Nella started as a friend of Meg's then became a friend of Pam's too. I mostly remember Roy, since Count Stovall was such a smooth looking actor (he seemed miscast as a cop, in my opinion he would have been better used as a villain, maybe an associate of James'). Perhaps if Marland had invested half as much care into the Franklins as he did with the Snyders, they would have been more meaningful to viewers and would have lasted as long as the Snyders.

I agree with this. I couldn't put my finger on it at the time but I think you're right. I just chalked it up to the theme that all those women had once been involved with John-- but I never felt that Emma would have ever caught John's eye. That was Marland trying to make the Snyders relevant and connecting them to one of the show's iconic legacy characters like John Dixon. So when they included Emma in that anniversary episode it reminded me of how forced the Emma-John relationship felt when I first watched it in the 80s. ***** Speaking of Roy's family, how many Franklins were there shown on screen? I can't even remember the mother's name. The party at the Mona Lisa to celebrate Nella's graduation from nursing played up the fact that Nella was friends with Pam Wagner who had also just graduated from the nursing program at Oakdale Memorial.

The Snyders' shelf life was extended by Jack. If not for Jack (and Brad), Holden would have just been absorbed into Lily and Lucinda's world with their kids and the Snyder farm as a setting would likely have been dropped. I agree that Martha's version of Lily wanting to hang out at the farm was contrived. If anything it should have been the other way around-- characters like Meg and Ellie wanting to get off the farm and spend the night in town. When Marland makes the show more business-based in 1989 and after, he really gets away from the whole idea of the have nots. By that point, Holden has married Emily then Lily and has come into money. Ellie has married Kirk and come into money. Iva's got a good job at the hospital and involved with John who has money. Meg's married Josh and isn't Josh working for Cal Stricklyn, which means they have money. And Emma was selling books and involved with Ned Simon who had money. Seth was an author and making money and living in New York. The only character in the family that did not become well-off was Caleb who was a working class policeman. So for the most part Marland had upgraded the Snyders financially. Within a five year period they were far removed from anything related to rural poverty or rural hardship.

I'd like to read the bibles of subsequent headwriters who justified the removal of some of Marland's characters, especially those Snyders who were written out (like Iva and Caleb). And how they justified re-building the Snyders around cousin Jack and his brother Brad. Also I'd really like to see the memos where they decided to let Patricia Bruder go. Getting rid of a historic character like Ellen Stewart was a big thing, but they did it sort of quietly. I am sure their reason was budget and lack of story ideas for her. And it would be interesting to know how they decided to kill Hal off instead of continuing with one of Ben Hendrickson's replacements, after his suicide. All those interesting behind-the-scenes things that we can only speculate about.

Well he did write out Paul in 85. In those newspaper synopses it says that Barbara sent Paul away to a boarding school. Obviously done to age him off camera. He came back in time for James' return from the dead in late 86. I don't know about Andy-- did they age him/recast him too? I still think it was a mistake to write out Maggie, as she was connected to Lyla and Lyla's brood. Even though the bible only mentioned Clem Holden there is the comment that Marland planned to bring in the rest of that family. And he wasted no time doing that. Holden was introduced in mid-October 85 and Emma and Iva were on screen the first week of November, with Meg appearing two months later in the new year. Today a headwriter would not be able to write out someone like Heather Dalton. A token minority character would not get cut. She might experience a reduction in screen time but she would not get fired. I agree that Cal Randolph had run his course by this point and was deadwood. Ditto for Jay.

Interesting. So at what point was the last name changed to Snyder I wonder. It's hard to believe there were no other rural characters on other soaps at this time. I thought there were some on Another World. I didn't watch AW but weren't the Frames lower class, and didn't Sharlene Frame live on a farm? I'd like to see his list of people he was writing off. Did he change his mind on any of those? What possible reason could he have given for writing Maggie, Frank and baby Jill off? There was so much they could have done with them. Plus it was nice having a female attorney on a soap since they were rare in daytime, especially in the 80s. He did flood the canvas with newbies. By the end of 85 he'd added Holden, Emma and Iva (Meg would appear the second week of January 86), plus there was Harriet Corbman and all those characters for the Doug Cummings mystery. And he had Tonio in the wings to complicate Craig and Sierra's relationship.

Makes sense. That was probably what she submitted. I think it was the only time Kathleen Widdoes was up for lead actress. Yes, probably material from March 93 to February 94. Back then the cut off was in February. Not sure what it is now. The noms for that year certainly were unusual. Hutchinson wasn't on GL very long and usually she played support to Maeve Kinkead and Michael Zaslow. She was more of a lead on OLTL.

I agree there should have been more with T.R. and the two mothers. Not necessarily T.R. pitting Estelle and Liza against each other, but maybe Estelle and Liza bringing out the worst in each other and T.R. caught in the middle. But Louann Gideon was such a weak Liza that I think after Tomlin left the next writer (Addie Walsh) just decided to reduce her to one episode a week without any real storyline. If Sherry Mathis had returned or a more compelling actress had played Liza then I am sure there would have been for the character to do. They just stopped writing for her because Gideon couldn't handle any serious dramatic scenes. There was no romance for Liza after the flood. In the late 70s and first half of the 80s, Liza's romantic life always took center stage. Sherry Mathis was a tough act to follow and though Gideon tried she just didn't really cut it. I agree about Joe Lambie. Like Gideon he seemed too young to play T.R.'s parent. In that case there were T.R.'s older brothers which made it even more of a miscast. I like your idea that he could have played a kid brother of Lloyd's. That would have worked. I don't remember too much about Robert Reed except he did not last long. Lambie was replaced right after the flood, and Reed was only on for three months. I would say Reed was on screen from late March to late June 86. He was one of the first ones that Walsh and Long fired. They quickly had Estelle get the upper hand and turn him over to the feds for tax evasion or something like that. His last episode he was rotting in jail and Estelle was gloating that she had defeated him. I don't think there was much they could do with Alec and Chase when Adair was off screen, since that was supposed to be an important triangle. But there were two Adairs with a slight gap in between and the second one was so different from the first one that she did not have the same chemistry with the brothers. Chase was recast when Kevin Conroy left. And like Mathis' departure, his shoes were too big to fill. The second Chase was abysmal and eventually just disappeared. I think Alec would have worked if Wendy had stayed on. There had been earlier suggestions that Alec fancied Wendy after Warren died. But then she started lusting after Quinn and then lost Quinn to Sarah. So all the potential of a Wendy-Alec relationship was dropped. Ryder was introduced when T.R. found out she was Lloyd's daughter and ran away from home. He and his friend Cruiser helped her on the streets. That was in early '85. Ryder was on the show for about 12 or 13 months until his death in the flood. The storyline in the summer of '85 involving the circus was really not well written at all. Paul Avila Mayer's material was all wrong for the show. He didn't get the characters or their histories and did a lot of damage. The real problem with Search in those final years was that P&G kept trying to reinvent the wheel. Every six months there was a new headwriter and a new producer. Each new regime was trying to start over with a new formula instead of building what the previous regime had done. The flood was an expensive reboot that did not pan out. It generated a lot of great drama for a few weeks at the end of February and beginning of March 86, but a lot of the businesses were renamed. All the sets changed. It was too drastic a "face lift." It really destroyed continuity with a lot of what had come before. It would have been better if the flood had only wiped out part of the town, so that the writers could kill off characters that were not working and revamp a few sets but still keep some continuity. Jo and Stu's business should have remained as it was. They were a cornerstone "couple" on the show and did not need revising or rebooting in any way. I also was a bit upset that LIza's home was destroyed. That set should have remained. They basically put her into a hotel after that, and since Louann Gideon's screen time was reduced, it was just another sign the last regime did not really care about the character of Liza or about her son Tourneur. I agree that the various writing teams burned through Suzi and Cagney's story too fast. They were married too quickly. And since Warren was being killed off, then Justine should have stayed on to cause continuous conflicts. Really Justine should have been pregnant with Cagney's child. That would have created the right kind of drama since Cagney was not really Jonah's father and would have logically been pulled towards doing the responsible thing with Justine and a son she might provide him. Plus if Kate disliked Suzi then Kate could have pushed Cagney into marrying a pregnant Justine, thus delaying Cagney's eventual marriage to Suzi. If the storylines had been planned better and the successive regimes had carried things out from what the previous regimes had started the show could have lasted.

Krakowski had two Emmy nominations for Outstanding Younger Actress during the last two years of the show. I think she was popular but the frequent headwriter changes did not help her storylines, which were usually very inconsistent. I did like the T.R.-Ryder relationship and felt he shouldn't have been killed in the flood. But his death did give her some good material to play. The T.R.-Liza drama was great when Travis died, during the period Sherry Mathis was playing Liza. But I don't think Mathis' replacement Louann Gideon was very effective in the role. For one thing Gideon seemed too young to be T.R.'s adoptive mother and another change of headwriters pushed T.R. more into the Kendalls' orbit since T.R. was originally Rebecca Kendall, daughter of Lloyd and Estelle. After the flood, when T.R. no longer had a boyfriend on the show, her scenes mainly consisted of her interacting with Estelle. A lot of T.R.'s connection to Liza and Stu was dropped which was a mistake. Then around September 86 they just sent her to college in Paris or somewhere in Europe, which Estelle was supposedly paying for. I think they basically were firing Krakowski but while her contract was running out the show was cancelled so they brought her back for two episodes during the last week of December. It helped give her and Estelle some closure. And she did have a scene with Liza in one of those last episodes, bringing some of that full circle. I was a bit surprised that Krakowski received the second Emmy nomination in 1987 after the show had gone off the air. Mostly because she had such reduced screen time after the flood in March 86, then was basically written out in September. But my guess is she was nominated for the material where T.R. dealt with Ryder's death. If they had been consistent with the storytelling, they could have made T.R. into one of the show's main characters and with Krakowski's acting talent and popularity with fans, it would have been the right thing to do. Re: Suzi and Cagney...Suzi actually lasted for awhile after Warren's death. Warren was killed in the last week of February '85. Suzi was arrested and all the aftermath played out through April/May. She was cleared and now married to Cagney who was helping her raise Jonah. A lot of the Suzi-Wendy rivalry was dropped and they seldom had scenes together after May '85. Paul Avila Mayer took over as the new headwriter in late April and he did not know what to do with them. At one point they were living with Jo and Suzi was basically helping Jo and Stu run their bed and breakfast while Cagney was depicted on the force usually in police-related scenes. They were now without a real storyline of their own. Suzi was seen less and less. Paul Avila Mayer was finally replaced in late October. But during those six months Suzi and Cagney had gone from a main supercouple to backburner and virtually forgotten about. The next writer, Gary Tomlin, tried to make them a Nick and Nora type couple where Suzi was helping Cagney solve cases. It was mostly filler material. Jonah was hardly featured during these months. Wendy was soon written out when Lisa Peluso quit. Wendy was at that point in a triangle with Stephanie and Bela. Tomlin made the stupid mistake of killing Stephanie off in January 86 which I think was done because they wanted to build up Estelle as the new Alexis Carrington type witch and this made Stephanie redundant. Also with Wendy's exit, there was no one for Stephanie to continue interacting with since her relationship with Bela was a bust and Bela was now chasing after Estelle. So after Wendy and Stephanie go, Suzi's main connection is with Cagney, Jo and Stu. There was another headwriting change in June. Addie Walsh and consultant Pam Long (who was coming off a maternity leave from Guiding Light) were supposed to save the show at the end. But Walsh and Long felt Hogan and Patty should be the new main supercouple. They also gave a new story to the youngest McCleary brother Quinn, but Cagney was kind of in limbo with Suzi. They didn't know what to do with them. So they decided to kill Suzi off. Her death was very abupt. If I remember correctly there was a roadside accident in October. Suzi was in a wreck on a Friday and dead on a Monday. No foreshadowing at all. She was there one minute, then gone the next. We saw Cagney and Jo grieve her but it all happened fast. Cagney was now raising Jonah on his own and quickly put into a triangle with Evie Stone (played by Joanna Going) and Jerry Henderson, grandson of the town judge. The show's cancellation was announced at this time so there wasn't enough opportunity for the writers to build up Cagney's new storyline with Evie. In the final week Jo has a dream about the future where we learn Cagney went on to marry Evie who became a good stepmother to Jonah. Basically Evie was a Suzi replacement. They brought actress Teri Eoff who had played Suzi back for the final week. At the end of the Tuesday episode Suzi reappears as a ghost to Cagney and Jonah. In the Wednesday episode she basically gives Cagney her blessing to be with Evie and then Suzi just fades away. So technically Suzi was on till the end of show, but she had no appearances in November 86 and just did those two episodes in late December.

It's probably just the opposite. That cancellation was on the horizon for some time and they were pulling out all the stops to re-set the show to give NBC a reason to renew it for another season. Usually when headwriters start killing legacy characters it's because they know the writing is on the wall and they are trying to do shocking stuff at the end to reignite interest in the program. They also bring in "exciting" new characters to try and boost things. There is the hope they might get picked up by another network, since that happened with Edge and Search. But most of these last-minute "solutions" do not work and the shows barely go off the air with a shred of dignity intact. If they would just write true to the history of the stories that worked during the soap's heyday and avoid the stunt casting and shocking deaths, they would probably retain more consistent viewership or at least bow out gracefully.

I was looking at the wiki pages for Daytime Emmy winners and nominees in the actress categories. I didn't realize Lisa Brown and Kathleen Widdoes were nominated so often for supporting actress in the late 80s. After 1990 none of Marland's cast, except for Liz Hubbard, gets nominated again while he's still writing. Wonder if there was a backlash to all the business stories he had started around 1989. After Marland's death Widdoes does get nominated again in 1994 that time as lead actress. So what was Emma's big story in 94, because I don't remember her having a lot to do after Marland.

They made great use of the stairway, including the top landing. The Clegg home was practically a character in its own right. The bedrooms were exquisite, as well as Dylan's quarters. Nothing cheap about any of it. The sets for the McCandless home and Kelly's place were equally stunning, and they found perfect exteriors to go with the studio interiors. Everything was classy. Even the hospital sets had an extra flair we don't see on other soaps.

If I remember correctly, that was when Lisa was involved with Earl. Fulton said she had always submitted herself for lead actress but that year she decided to submit herself for supporting actress. She lost to Ellen Wheeler who won for playing a woman with AIDS on All My Children.

The NBC years are what I watched. I always saw Warren as a Roger Thorpe type character (as in Roger from Guiding Light). Where he was trying to prove himself with the big boys and had mistreated his wife (Suzi) but he was determined to raise his son (Jonah) the way Roger was determined to be part of his daughter's life. On some level we could sympathize with Warren, because he was his own worst enemy. He was ultimately killed off so that Suzi and Cagney would be a main supercouple. But then a later headwriter also killed Suzi off which I felt was a mistake. Sunny played more of a supporting role after the rape. But then she later was on the front burner when she tried to commit suicide after she lost Hogan to Liza. I felt that story was all wrong for her. The Sunny we knew would never give up or try to kill herself. And it sort of wrecked her nice friendship with Liza. In the show's final year she had hooked up with con artist Bela Garody, and that pairing didn't feel right. But we were told in the final episodes she was pregnant with Bela's baby and if it was a girl she was going to name it Jo, after Joanne. So at least Sunny did become a mother, or was going to become one post-show. Danny did not work out on the show. They brought him in for a triangle with T.R. and another young guy named Ryder. Ryder was eventually killed in the flood. Danny was brought back temporarily for those episodes, I guess as a support for T.R. but he had pretty much been dropped by the producers. And after the town rebuilt itself he was never seen or heard from again. I don't think the Danny-T.R. thing worked with viewers, since T.R. was Liza's adopted daughter, and this made her Danny's niece. So while they were not technically blood related it had an incestuous vibe to it. After Ryder was killed off and Danny disappeared again, T.R. had nothing to do. A few months later they wrote her off by sending her to college in Europe. But she came back for two episodes at the end to celebrate Christmas.

I assume there is fan-fiction or at least ideas of what happened to the main families after 1982.

Thanks. A wealth of information you are!

Thanks. And how many Aldriches do we eventually see? Do all of Steve's children get aged?

So how many Dancys were there altogether? Were any of them still on the show in 1982?

Makes sense. Again I didn't follow AW. But my (perhaps incorrect) understanding was that P&G brought Lemay back to reset the core families that had gone off track during his absence. So Swajeski was supposed to use his new bible and build on those ideas. It was like they didn't want to pay him all that money to keep him on full time but they would use him when the show was in trouble to fix it. I do find it interesting that he worked "under" Marland at GL, since he had basically trained Marland at AW in the 70s. Maybe he was finishing out a contract with P&G and they just shifted him over there temporarily to finish out the contract, and since he and Marland got along it was easy. Just guessing.

I don't think he headwrote GL. He did go back to AW for a while in the mid-80s. I think he helped reboot the show so Donna Swajeski could take over. And from what I've heard she did a fine job from 87 to 91. But I never watched AW, so again I don't have a deep appreciation of Lemay for any of his on-air material. I wish I did.

He never wrote any show I watched. I didn't watch Another World or The Doctors back in the day when he was headwriting them. Maybe he worked on Guiding Light for awhile, but Doug Marland was the headwriter and I think he just did breakdowns/outlines. I did read his book 'Eight Years in Another World' just to get an idea of how NBC soaps were produced in the 70s. It was a very entertaining and insightful book.

Thanks for providing those. I'll add them to the file. It's a Word document.