mikelyons

21 hours ago, VanessaReardon said:

Alright. I’ll bite. No, except that Erika Slezak and JFP truly love and admire each other. They got along fabulously. 

JFP got along with the movie star's daughter. Shocking. Of course she did.

1 hour ago, ghfan89 said:

Florencia Lozano said when Jill Farren Phelps took over One Life to Live, she told her to dye her hair blonde and wanted Tea to stop speaking Spanish... even though the character was hispanic.

 

JFP also disseminated the Gannons (Hank/RJ/Rachel) on the same show.

 

JFP also put a stop to the Gilly and Alan-Michael romance on Guiding Light years earlier,

 

Then she put a stop to the Taggert as Sonny's step-brother and Gia as his sister story on GH. Gives Sonny a blonde, blue eyed sister instead.

 

I'm just saying. There's a pattern.

When you write it out, it only makes me despise JFP that much more. JFP was a walking dumpster fire for soaps. I loved Tea & Taggert.

9 hours ago, Franko said:

This might be a results may vary trope (since so many of the performers were genuinely talented), but how about how the town token would inevitably end up singing at funerals? Didn't Timothy D. Stickney say he deliberately sang badly in an OLTL episode to avoid that fate?

This trope!

Livia sang at Mona's funeral (AMC), even though I don't think that was ever established prior to that.

Y&R loved shoving black folks into a music industry storyline. Sally-Sing-a-Long (aka Ana), Devon, Justine (played by the fantastic Michelle Thomas), Tre...that's all I can think of right now. To be fair to Y&R, they've always had a weird fetish with the music industry/people singing on the show from Lorie and Lance to JT and Brittany. It always feels forced, especially when everyone knows one song, "Bless the Beasts and Children".

With regard to Devon, daytime's first black billionaire (?), the last thing a real billionaire with $2 billion would invest in would be the music industry. Oh, and the way Devon Y&R let Devon be hoodwinked out of his inheritance was disgusting. 

18 minutes ago, Franko said:

 

 

Rewinding back to page one, wasn't Lauryn Hill's character on ATWT another young illiterate?

Yup!!!

Just now, BetterForgotten said:

For the life of me, I don't recall Norah celebrating the Jewish holidays on a consistent basis. It must have been down to who was the HW at the time and if they cared.

I think you're spot-on. If JFP were there, well, she would've run Matthew down on Llanview Blvd., but I digress. 

6 minutes ago, SFK said:

 

Yes, I always loved any reference to Nora being Jewish. I even remember Rachel referring to herself as "a good little Jewish girl."

And Rachel as a bi-racial Jewish woman? I mean, that must have been first on daytime!

Just now, SFK said:

 

How explicit was OLTL about the Siegels' faith? I'm thinking about how some years later on AW, Iris' mother Sylvie's Judaism was "heavily inferred" but never outright stated. I can imagine clunky "safe" dialogue using phrases like "interfaith marriage" and whatnot, but I'm curious how often the word Jewish was uttered and how Agnes Nixon established their religion to begin with. Did the Siegels go to temple, observe high holidays?

@Paul Raven @vetsoapfan

Norah certainly celebrated Jewish holidays on OLTL with Bo, Hank, and her children. I distinctly remember a Hanukkah episode from the late-90s/early-00s or so...Matthew was a little boy at that point.

6 minutes ago, SFK said:

 

Debbi Morgan and Darnell Williams shared this sentiment, i.e., Angie (Chief of Staff) and Jesse (Chief of Police) in their *cozy* loft. 2.0 righted this, IIRC.

There was a weird time on AMC when everyone, except Adam, Palmer, Brooke, the Martins, and Phoebe lost their homes. A lot of people moved into that condo complex. Even Erica gave up Linden House (she would NEVER!) to move into that stupid loft/penthouse. Maybe Angie and Jesse were her neighbors.

6 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

I wish soaps were still viable. This moment could allow for so much diversity, but daytime is playing it safe to hold on to a dying audience. 
 

We briefly had the Voliens/Keemo on Y&R and the Chin family on AMC. Haley and Trask on DAYS were just a stunt. The problem is that these shows see themselves as essentially white and always have. They don’t want to give up too many spots to POCs, and they rarely allow the ones they do have to build a legacy.

 

 

You are correct. Imagine if a family from Hong Kong bought Forrester Creations and turned it into a mass-market brand to sell cheap accessories, wallets, and jewelry. Or if that same family moved to LA, bought Spectra, and undercut the Forrester with fast fashion and more money to higher the top designers. 

The Keemo incident is a shame. He's the grandchild and child of legacy characters - at one point he was Nikki Newman Abbott's stepson - and he's been relegated to a Wiki blurb. Shameful.

I have a very hazy memory of the Chins on AMC. If it was just before or after Bianca's rape, that may be why.

Let's not forget that only OLTL has done any justice to Jewish characters. Y&R's revision of Brad's history DOES NOT count. Not even a little.

I'm still waiting for soaps to give us a full integrated, functioning Asian family on soaps. We've had a stray character here, a product of a liaison from the Vietnam War there, but I want a dynamic family from Asia who are either working class & on the up or the richest family in town. 

 

Also, can we please get black characters out of apartments and condos? Like, if you're a doctor or executive, you should instantly have a two-story house on a soap! Dru and Neil's apartment always drove me MAD.

Let's add drug addicted black women to this list (YoHarmony; Jamal's mother on AMC)...

Pious Latin mothers who have to pray to the Virgin & have at least one son who is a police officer... (and I LOVED the Vegas). (Pilar & Carlotta)

 

Yeah... The whole hood sibling thing is spot-on and oh so... Cringeworthy. But after the hood sibling becomes reformed, they marry up and do well!

 

I will say, AMC did race pretty well until 1995 when Disney bought ABC (so many ills in ABC Daytime can be traced back to that purchase...) If I remember correctly, Angie's parents on AMC were doctors (or at least her father was a doctor). Taylor Roxbury Cannon was a mean, nasty spiteful woman who people just loved to hate. Derek Frye & Livia Frye were just wonderful. Terrance Frye was so sexy! We can't forget Mimi!! Lucas Barnes was a great addition to Pine Valley, too. An Li's initial story was that she "had" to marry Brian Bodine to stay in the country, but she has more than happy to do it, if not to spite Hayley. The Santos family was a welcome addition to the canvas because it gave us Maria & Edmund (they were so freaking sexy!) and Hayley and Mateo. With the introduction of Noah and the way Julia literally cowered from him in the first scene after she ran away after the tornado were cringeworthy & should never be seen again. By 1996, most of the black characters would start moving off the canvas and, well, we all know what happened next.

I think Agnes was a bit more "woke" than Bill Bell. At least her black characters had rounded, interesting lives, were integrated with the canvas, and knew how to read.

 

Dru (Y&R) and Dayzee (B&B) were from the classic Bell trope of black women not knowing how to read & having to be educated. Also, streetwise street urchins.

 

Having minority characters as best friends and talk-to's is a trope of which all soaps carry collective shame. 

 

I love how a soap may have one or two non-white actors, but as soon as they need a police officer or thug, they have every black or Latino actor on set; the same when they need a doctor or accountant...here comes every Asian actor with an agent. It's sickening.

 

The re-casting of Blair (OLTL) as a white woman was offensive to a lot of OLTL viewers. When Kassie burst onto the canvas with a Southern accent, people were like, "What?!?

 

I forgot about "Kong". 

 

45 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

A lot of people did, I’m sure, but I rarely saw any criticism of Mamie in the soap media over the years. 

Agreed. I loved the character, but I hated her name. By the way, is she still on her cruise?

4 hours ago, Faulkner said:

As potentially problematic as the “mammy” relationship could be perceived through a 2020 lens, Mamie really should still be a presence in the lives of the Abbotts. She really did adore those kids. 

I thought it was problematic as a 11 year old kid in 1994! I could never figure out why Mamie's name was so close to "mammy" when that was the crux of the relationship with the Abbotts. Couldn't they have named her Joan or Anne? I disliked it then and I dislike it now vis-a-vis the fantastic Y&R re-runs from the 80s & 90s.

39 minutes ago, Broderick said:

 

There are definitely some copies of "The Innocent Years" bible floating around somewhere, based on what Bill Bell said in his interview with the Archive of American Television.

Wish someone could find one!   I'd assume the Bell family has one, unless they've donated it to a university or something.  

I really appreciate the notes posted above about the various working titles and the character prototypes!    

I've been in the Bell archives a number of times and have never seen the original bible. I guess I need to make a few phone calls...  

19 minutes ago, Broderick said:

About the Y&R bible, here's what Bill Bell reveals of its existence during his discussion about the initial meeting with executives from Screen Gems and CBS on a trip to New York:

 

" I passed out the copies of the book, and as I was doing it I realized one thing --- that none of them were going to understand this.   They’ll understand a nighttime show that has a beginning, a middle, and an end.   But here we are --- we have a 62-page book.   Maybe it was 72 pages.  But the first third of it told about what happens before the show even begins.   The second quarter established characters and really defined the characters.    And we were so diversified; it was just a fabulous group of characters.  And then the final part, which was about 25 pages, told what the story would be for the next two years.  Or maybe it was 30 pages.   About 30.  Covered two years of story.   Well, I knew by watching them read it, not an expression on anyone’s face, they didn’t know what the hell they were reading.   So then it was all over, and one by one, they closed their books, and they looked around at others.   They were looking around at others, and then someone else would close their book.  Everyone looking at the other for some look or expression, but there were no expressions …. They just don’t understand how you take these few pages and make two years out of it.”   

Thanks for sharing! If he handed out copies, maybe someone will find a copy at a yard sale in LA or Chicago. I'd pay for a copy of the Y&R bible.

What absolute trash. 

There’s nothing else to say about this ridiculous“documentary”.  

That’s all. 

58 minutes ago, AMCer said:

Rare to find a scene this old on YouTube.

 

 

The quality on this episode has degraded significantly. What a shame.

I'm glad to have the original VHS direct from Sony's master of this episode. 

On 5/23/2020 at 9:40 AM, allmc2008 said:

Does anyone have copies of the "The Young and the Restless" bible? I am curious on what it says about the show. Many show bibles I read had a section which involved the thematic concept. Even Dark Shadows had one. I am curious to what Y&R has.

 

 

I've looked through my notes, etc. and I can't find a single image of the Y&R bible. I have images/notes of the following bibles: LOVE IS A MANY SPLENDORED THING, ANOTHER WORLD, ALL MY CHILDREN, DAYS OF OUR LIVES, RAGS (THE BOLD AND THE BEAUTIFUL), and several unaired soaps in the collection. My guess is that they did a verbal pitch and then churned out the first five scripts for Y&R (those scripts encompass one day in Genoa City). 

Here's all I have from the original scraps of paper which lay out the foundations of Y&R:

 

- The show was meant to progress two years in the first week (eat that, Ron!)

- The original locale for the show was meant to be Chicago

- Phillip was the husband of Alison, a "young" mother of 41. (Note: Written next to Alison's character description is "unless Bette Davis is available..."). In this iteration, Phillip and Alison had been married for ten years. He died of a heart attack two years ago (the first week of the show) - although he was healthy - and established a trust for (Liz? - illegible!) and daughters. (Note: Alison became split into Jennifer Brooks and Kay Chancellor.)

- Liz (19, young, heartful.) Since her father's death two years ago, Liz has been in Europe for two years at school - girl very (def... - illegible) at her father. (Note: This iteration of Liz seems to have become Jill & Sally)

- Jan (23, more bland, not attractive but Laura-type.) (Note: She appears to have become Chris.)

- Brock Camden (25, intern. Dates Alison, has an eye for Jan.) (Note: Brock would become Snapper with the name "Brock" being recycled.)

- Brad Camden (16, student. Younger brother of Brock.)

- Marcello (Around 38, wants to marry Alison.) (Note in margin: Brother who left country because of draft.)

- Junior Camden (Note: Undefined. Nothing written about him.)

(The Camden brothers seem to have been morphed into the Brooks sisters & Greg and Snapper Foster.)

- Liz becomes pregnant and doesn't know whose baby it is. Goes to Brock for help. "You do this and I will marry you."

- Liz drinks too much at times. A girl in search of a father image. Little relationship between mother and daughter in past two years. 

- Phillip will one day marry Jan, but he'll forever be vulnerable to Liz.

- Liz wants only what that appears out of reach...

 

Proposed Titles for The Young and the Restless (circa 1972):

- YOU’RE ONLY YOUNG ONCE

- THE INNOCENT YEARS

- DESTINY

- UNTAMED

- BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE

- THE BEAUFITUL PEOPLE

- JET SET

- THE SWEET AND TRAGIC YEARS

- TO LOVE EACH DAY

- MAY WE LOVE EACH DAY

- THE BAD AND THE BEAUTIFUL

- THE YOUNG AND THE INNOCENT

- THE WORLD WE LIVE IN (shaded with a black pencil for prominence)

- WHERE LIES OUR DESTINY

- THE INNOCENT YEARS

 

Episodes 1-5 are entitled: “YOUNG AND RESTLESS YEARS”

EPISODE 1

Title on the cover of Episode #1:

“YOUNG AND RESTLESS YEARS”

Original line

SALLY: (MORE TO HERSELF)How awful to be stuck in a place like Genoa

City…during our young and restless years.

THEME UP AS WE DISSOLVE TO OPENING BILLBOARD…

The following was edited by Bill Bell in red pen.

SALLY: (MORE TO HERSELF) Kind of a drag, isn’t it. Stuck in a place like

Genoa City. (BEAT) God, I feel so restless.

THEME UP AS WE DISSOLVE TO OPENING BILLBOARD…

COMMERCIAL

“PIERRE’S” original name was “FRENCHY”

 

EPISODE 2

“JILL” appears in Episode #2

 

Episodes 1-5 encompass the same day.

 

From Episode 6 until now all scripts are entitled “THE YOUNG AND THE RESTLESS”

 

EPISODE 7

The Foster home (kitchen/living room) are referred to as the Larson

kitchen/living room. Chris calls Liz “Mrs. Larson.”

Greg comes home to visit in this episode.

 

EPISODE 8

The Larson’s are back to being the Fosters’.

 

Found outline for Episode 11:

EPISODE #11 - TAPE DATE: MONDAY, MARCH 26 - AIR DATE: APRIL 9, 1973

KAY LENARD - OUTLINE

 

 

 

On 5/22/2020 at 11:27 PM, YRfan23 said:

This was so amazing to read!!! man I say this often but your memory is just awesome!!!

 

I know “Kay” might seem less formal to call her by but to me personally I always like saying “Katherine”..haha if I write “Kay” it’s when I don’t Feel like writing out “Katherine” lol

 

interesting that Jill did call her “Kay” after Phillip died because in some post 70s Phillip death clips I’ve seen or heard it seemed like Jill for some reason still called her “Mrs. Chancellor” I think even Deborah Adair’s Jill still called her that in one scene but then she called her “Kay” after she married John...the scene is an a compilation video I have of the 70s/early 80s and DA’s Jill says: “I’m now as rich As you are Kay!” Or something like that.
 

Didn’t Liz start alternating between “Mrs.Chancellor”  and “Katherine” sometime in the 80s too? When she returns in Summer 1993 when Katherine has married Rex she still refers to her as “Mrs.Chancellor” and even apologizes to Rex saying she will always be “Mrs.Chancellor” to her. 

 

 

 

 

The character was always written as "Kay" in Y&R scripts & production material, never as "Katherine". She was only called "Katherine" if it was in a character's dialogue. 

20 hours ago, amybrickwallace said:

 

Best final scene of any soap I've seen - even if I did have to see it years later on YouTube. ❤

Agreed!

20 minutes ago, BetterForgotten said:

No. 

Yep.

 

But I will say the beginning of her first Y&R return by telling Scotty the story in her return episode was chilling. It kinda went downhill after that.

1 minute ago, Paul Raven said:

According to Jason 47's site, Bill Bell's tenure as headwriter finished 6th May 1975, about 2 years after Y&R began.

Due to contract issues I believe he was obligated to continue at Days for those two years but Pat Falken Smith was de facto headwriter and continued on till 77. But the UCLA collection points to Bell still being involved  up till 78.

Very confusing!!

PF Smith didn't start at GH until 79, replacing Doug Marland.

That timeline seems accurate to me. Maybe Screen Gems/Corday didn't want him to leave DAYS & sweetened the pot for long term story projects.

This may not be appropriate for this thread, but I saw a letter from Bill Rega congratulating Bill on the first hour long episode of DAYS in autumn of 1974. Do we know if Bill wrote that for sure?

11 minutes ago, FrenchFan said:

Are these scripts donated available for the public ?

Only if you make the trek to UCLA. I've heard of folks getting scrips scanned and emailed to them from UCLA, but you might want to see what their policies are right now. Since I live in Los Angeles, it's easier to go to the archive when necessary. 

On 5/17/2020 at 6:39 PM, will81 said:

I've been trying to find that too. Unfortunately many of the articles I have found state Kay became a co-head writer in 1988???? 

 

Actually I just found an article with Jack Smith from 1988 stating he and Kay are co-head writers, no mention of Bill Bell at all. I know they became associate head writers, maybe the terminology is confused. He mentions this on the second page

 

 

Just now, mikelyons said:

On 5/17/2020 at 6:39 PM, will81 said:

I've been trying to find that too. Unfortunately many of the articles I have found state Kay became a co-head writer in 1988???? 

 

Actually I just found an article with Jack Smith from 1988 stating he and Kay are co-head writers, no mention of Bill Bell at all. I know they became associate head writers, maybe the terminology is confused. He mentions this on the second page

 

 

This is from 1988. Smith states that he and Kay Alden are head writing Y&R. Could it be that after B&B launched, Bill Bell let Alden & Smith execute his vision while he was busy getting B&B up and running? We know that Smith wrote Y&R and B&B at the same time during this period. It seems Smith went to B&B full-time after Bell came back to Y&R and B&B was "settled". Conjecture, of course, but any insight is ALWAYS welcome. 

3 hours ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I'll have to get back to you .  1983 often is mentioned as a strong year, though...

On the AW thread, Will posted a link to the Bill Bell script archives...  Which all seem to make sense except there is one for AMC that says beside it SERIES IDEA.  ???

 

http://pdf.oac.cdlib.org/pdf/ucla/pasc/wjbell.pdf

I think this "Series Idea" heading is merely to state that the original ALL MY CHILDREN bible is in the collection. However, I'm more than willing to imagine an ALL MY CHILDREN from 1970-75 under Bill Bell. The wonders he would have done with Erica/Chuck/Phillip/Tara. (I got chills just typing that!)