ajsp35801

As happy as I am about the writing for Jamal, I don't think the writers will invest the same effort into Andre.

With Hakeem I can understand the writers relative lack of focus because Yazz isn't as strong an actor as Trai & Jussie (nor is Hakeem a credible choice to run Empire) but Trai has proven he's as strong (if not stronger) an actor as Jussie & he deserves better than to be a supporting player in Jamal's journey to become the next CEO of Empire.

You know what...any other time I'd tell you to suck it up. This is one show where a person from a marginalized group is being pushed above every one else while every other show on TV is catering to the mainstream group. However, these people aren't white. The airwaves aren't exactly over filled with straight black characters getting their due either. Let alone one with a mental disability. The Andres are just as scarce as the Jamals. So instead, I'll say..

+1

Trai (and Andre) definitely deserves better than to be a supporting player when the show wasnt originally touted as "Jamal's Journey". I'm sure that's not what he signed up for.

I'm very glad they made a point of showing Jamal to be a man, with a man's pride and anger and passion regardless of his orientation. I think that's extremely important. Like it or not, there's a segment of the audience that needs to hear and see that message be reinforced regularly. They need to know it makes no difference. They have to bust that box and keep doing so. And Lucious will only like and respect Ryan Morgan until he realizes Ryan Morgan is gay and [!@#$%^&*] his son.

As for whether or not the writing is playing favorites - I think they have taken the time out to flesh out the other brothers across the season and will continue doing so. For now, I agree it is just incredibly refreshing seeing Jamal center stage. I am sure he will take a fall soon enough, and the other two will keep rising. That's the way a family soap like this works.

There is inherent misogyny in the bolded statement but I won't get into it other than to say that it really rankles when people act like behaving in a manner that people perceive as feminine is considered an insult or weak. And this isn't just for men...I've seen it used against women as well.

I understand why the show went out of the way to do this. However, it steps on my toes.

But he's not perfect. He let his relationship with Michael collapse in favor of pursuing his career and not coming out when he should've. He was with Olivia and may or may not have fathered Lola at his father's behest. He blamed Hakeem for a setup Andre created. And I'm sure there'll be more as time goes on. Also, I'm not sure what "hypermasculinity" you're talking about coming from him. Just because Jamal isn't heightened and flamboyant in the usual 'safe gay' way too much primetime media portrays gay characters, he's therefore too butch?

I've seen enough [!@#$%^&*] self-loathing or coded gay characters in my time to know when I'm being pawned off or looked down upon. Jamal is a strong, soulful and emotional leading protagonist created by a gay showrunner. He's openly intimate with his lover and often open and raw with his feelings, but he's also no pushover and won't back down. He's all of the above, just as he sings.

And let's not forget, whether or not Lucious can respect Hakeem, he was fully prepared to grind it out and make Hakeem his successor for weeks or months before and after the pilot - just so the gay kid didn't get the throne.

I don't understand what you want Jamal to be. He has been shown to be three-dimensional and flawed like the other brothers. But this show has signposted since Day One that Jamal was the dark horse to take the throne, and that a huge part of this season's story, at least, was going to be him coming into his own and finding his way. The other brothers are also in the process of doing that now, but Jamal's story is central to the season. Don't act like it's some shock or you got sold some bill of goods.

A friend of mine pointed out the hypermasculinity. I actually defended the scenes on this board and to her but it doesn't mean I don't get what the show is doing with them. The show has gone out of its way to show Jamal as tough and "manly". Something it didn't do for Andre nor Hakeem, whom I doubt many viewers see as a fully grown man. But thats another Topic. They Even had Cookie saying Jamal is "a top". I think we all get the point the show is making.

Yes. Jamal left his lover but the show made a point of painting Michael as insecure and unworthy. There has been no blowback or consequences from how he treated Michael. they even went do far as introducing a more acceptable love interest for him. One that Lucious likes and respects.

I'm Team Jamal. He's my favorite besides kitty and Cookie. But I see why people are put out by him and the writing he gets. For Me, on the other hand, it's refreshing to see a person from a marginalized group be a fave in the writer's room. So I am loving It all!

But he's not a Gary Stu or a Mary Sue or anything else. He's made mistakes and bad choices like the rest of them and he has pride and foibles which will surely trip him up. He's just a rootable character.

Of course he is. Jamal is mostly perfect who does right. Very sympathetic! the only thing that keeps him frim being perfect in Lucious' eyes is that he's gay. Name one mistake that Jamal made that wasn't penned to promote hypermasculinity angle for the character?

Andre has 3 strikes: mental illness, no musical talent, and married a white woman. Lucious can't do anything with that.

Hakeem Is too young and naive for Lucious although he has talent. But he has never struggled and has no street cred which makes his music lack authenticity. Lucious can't respect that at all.

Thank you. Thank you.

It's the same reason why they wanted Lucious to have had Jamal and two other girls, instead of boys -- because they can't possibly understand/accept how and why, out of three men, the gay one seems to be the most talented and potentially winning.

There will be an Anika/Cookie catfight in the finale. It's been described as a full-on fight

.

I don't think that's what Mo meant. I figure she was saying that since Lucious wants to leave Empire to a son, make the other two girls to stop pretending their is a choice.

We're saying the same thing.

Oh yeah...I should have started with "I agree". Lol

But I don't think Jamal being gay as to why people have a problem. It's causehe's a writer's self insertion. A Gary Stu. He would probably get the same amount of flack if he was straight. The people who dont like him would choose another reason to gripe.

All the characters have their due, IMO, but Jamal has been clearly sold as the primary rooting interest here, the dark horse - and for once, a gay character has been moved into first position in a soap opera business/family empire story of this ilk. If people can't handle that it's their problem.

"For once"?..you act like there are alot of soap operas out there with gay sons that took a back seat. This show is a first for many things dealing with sexuality, race, and socioeconomic status.

Lucious being a killer is irrelevant in this. In general, if anyone can beat Lucious, at this point, it's Cookie. She is more than his equal.

The only other that could eventually win is Jamal, which brings me to...

Absolutely.

I thought we were talking about no one bring a match for a cold blooded killer. If we are talking savvy then yes, Cookie could outsmart him.

I have a feeling they are going to subvert it, actually. We'll think it'll go to Jamal but it'll be Cookie, at least for the moment. Whenever Jamal (or anyone else) does get the throne, it won't be for long. This is a soap opera about a family business.

I thought from day one that when Lucious died, he'd leave it to Queen Cookie.

Taraji P. Henson was asked about comparisons to Dynasty, and Dame Joan Collins, and she gave a most definitive reply, both respectful to the lady who paved the way for Cookie, while also focused on the present:

"With catfights, over-the-top fashions and vicious one-liners, the show recalls the heyday of Dynasty. But Henson resists the comparison.

Joan Collins has been done, she declares. She was my hero. But its Cookies time. Dynastys is over."

Preach!

Jamal going toe to toe with Lucious is LD's fantasy only! Jamal looks foolish and Lucious taking it doesn't ring true.

Well first of all, Lucious doesn't take it. TH plays it as amused most times. He's never bothered by Jamal's tirades unless they are talking specifically about him being gay. Otherwise, he just looks like he's impressed or indulging a child. He plays it the same with all his sons.

We get it!! the show is about the Lucious & Cookie gay son. I don't understand why they didn't make them other boys girls. I thought this show was about three rich black guys with different issues. No matter what issues the other two boys got, it always come back to Jamal is the best of what Lucious & Cookie got to offer.

Not necessarily. Lucious ruined all those boys. I don't see one as better than the other.

+1

Except Cookie.

Not even Cookie. She has her limits. I can't see her killing one of her sons or Lucious. But Lucious would do it. He would hesitate but he would kill one of those boys or Cookie.

Remember the Music by Jennifer Hudson. It's beautiful!

http://vevo.ly/QMsPJv

Good for him but everyone already knew...lol

No everybody didn't. I just argued my friend up and down a week ago that he wasn't gay.

I can only tolerate Jamal when he is performing with his brother. Otherwise, he's cringe worthy, and for Daniels to even imply that this clown can go toe to toe with a man like Lucious is CLEARLY a fantasy. It's always laughable to me.

Who can go toe to toe with a cold blooded killer though? Jamal is no match but neither is anyone else.

This is so odd to me, to see Luscious actions being apologized for, he just seems like such an obvious manifestation of everything wrong with the world be it homophobia, racism and now his archaic responses to mental illness, he's just an all around fail in the world we live in and I can't tolerate it. I want him destroyed. I'm hoping that the ALS kills him slowly and with maximum pain. That kind of ignorance can't exist in the world. I don't find him charming or sympathetic in the least -- no matter how good Terrance Howard is an an actor or how good looking some people may see him as. I'm getting flashbacks o Archie Bunker and JR Chandler from AMC here. I just can't excuse him, not matter what time period he comes from, or what community he grew up in.

That kind of ignorance does exist in the world and from people that I'm sure most of us love. You can love a person and not agree with their antiquated ideas. Lucious and his relationships with everyone around him are very realistic. His sons love him because, while he's a disaster, he also loves them and we have seen it shown in many ways. He's toxic but that doesn't mean they shouldn't love him. Who hasn't or doesn't love a toxic person? So what you may see as Lucious apologizers might simply be empathy from people who've lived the life of those around him.

Finally saw the episode and so late to the party.

I loved the episode as usual.

I had no problem whatsoever with Cookie tossing Kitty's stuff. That's Cookie's house damnit! It all came from her 400 Thousand! She owns all that IMO. Including Lucious' raggedy ass. That's her house, her cars, her company, her sons, and her damn husband as far as I'm concerned!

Andre. My Andre. I just want to hold him to my breast and heal him with my vagina. I truly do. And did you all catch that look Lucios gave as he passed off next of kin duties to Rhonda. Oh, I think he's setting her up for Andre to break up with her over having him committed.

I see people up in arms over Lucious having issues with Andre being labeled mentally ill. Did we expect any different? this is a very common response. I have two step cousins who are schizophrenic. First cousins. And both their mothers are in denial. Two sisters. The oldest got help on her own because she knew something wasn't right. She was in her mid 30s when the illness started to manifest. But the male was about 19 and he's now 25. He's a mess. I digress. Back to the show. Lucious is quite ignorant but I can't hate him. He is the embodiment of every man over the age of 65 that I know (regardless of color/race). They are just from a different era. Lucious is far too young for these opinions though.

Trai better get an Emmy nomination for that performance.

Jamal standing up to Lucious always makes me happy. Lucious as well if we go by the look on his face.

For some reason I want Tikeem back together. Hakeem was my least favorite character for the longest. But they gave him a heart and some vulnerability, so I have come to really love him. I'm still waiting on Lucious to sleep with Camilla and set Hakeem up to see it. That would be so soapy.

I like the new role they have found for Kitty. She can't really tell Lucious' secret because it ruins her father. Well written. Those are true stakes and it now makes sense as to why she would hold back the information. I've found that alot of times soaps writers have characters making nonsensical choices just to serve a plot (i.e. Nikki lying for Neil on Y&R). Anika's choices make perfect sense.

Rolling Stone on the music of Empire:

I would have to agree with Timbaland. I have every Faith that he can do any and all kinds of music. He has already done it. He writes and produces for all kinds of genres.

Andre is breaking MY HEART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's all!

Side note...Hakeem and Jamal's dimples are everything!

And you better believe that EVERY network is looking to green light their very own EMPIRE next season. I am sure execs have seen pitch after pitch. Let's see who has the balls to actually pull the trigger. I think Fox did it because of the success of Sleepy Hollow, in which they screwed up trying to push white leads this season.

Finally caught up with the comments...

First off Anika. I see a lot of people turned against her over drugging Elle. It was a despicable thing to do. And I was mad for all of 1 second and then I was all "Oooh, Kitty. You are one bad ass unscrupulous scheming Bitch". That moment made her character for me. She is worthy adversary for Cookie! She's the anti-heroine to Cookie's beloved heroine. Anika will do what she has to do to hold onto the power that she has at Empire. She helped make it obviously. And she won't give it up without a fight. The show needs this.

I like the grandbaby. She is a as cute as a button. I think it is clear that she will be Jamal's. I don't know why they didn't do a DNA test right away. I feel like whether she is biologically a Lyon or not, they are going to keep her. And Jamal. How is he going to snatch the baby away then prop her in Cookie's lap.

I was happy to see Dora leave. And the actor that plays this new guy played in one of my all time TV series EVER! He was Petros on Spartacus. I am excited about that.

Lucious And Cookie...YES! when Hakeem and Jamal asked Lucious if there was something he needed and he looked past them to Cookie...Yes! I knew it was going down. I almost felt bad for Kitty. Almost! But I couldn't stomach any sympathy. Not because of what happened with Elle either. But because I want Cookie and Lucious together and if people get hurt in pursuit of that, I don't care. I just have no [!@#$%^&*] to give. And count me is as one who isn't impressed with this idea that they have to make Cookie "pure" while Lucious has sowed all his damn oats. It's patriarchal BS that I can do without. I am praying that they played that beat to make it burn even more when Cookie hooks up with the head of security. Otherwise, FAIL!

Really loved Lucious' talk with Jamal about him finding someone who understands what it is like to be with an artist. I still maintain that Jamal is Lucious' favorite child.

I really liked Cookie delivering the speech and wowing the crowd. Cookie Lyons is everything!

Oh..I am not feeling Derek Luke's character. He's not even attractive to me at this point. I am not sure what happened. Back during the days of Biker Boyz, I was quite thirsty.

My wish list for the next couple of epis

1. Kitty's face cracked. She's a smug one.

2. Michael to scoot on. I didn't feel bad for him at all mainly because he seems to be gold digger. He has nothing going for himself but being pretty. Meh. I must agree with Kitty. I want Jamal to have someone who has their own. However, a few seasons from now when Jamal is a big star and Michael has his own show on the food network and restaurant in every major city, they can rekindle. Jamal can chase him and he runs unto the arms of his very fine and famous boyfriend that intimidates Jamal.

3. Portia to prove her loyalty to Cookie.

I'm not getting why others are not seeing this. Cookie is worse than Lucious. He's a [wonderful]jerk to his sons, but Cookie doesn't like the sons that aren't named Jamal, and she has no reason for this. She looked really bad yesterday in spite of being awesome! Cookie should be moving mountains to win over Hakeem and at least spend some time with Andre that isn't about Empire. Fix it, Jesus!

Cookie is NOT worse than Lucious. And that little smirk she gave was because Jamal took up for her. Finally someone is taking up for her where Hakeem is concerned. Nothing more and nothing less.

Hakeem is clearly repulsed by her because he wants to f*ck her on some level.

Concur with this. But it is not sexual attraction. He wants to punish her for what he sees as her abandonment of him. He wants to dominate her. Show her who has the power to make whom feel insignificant. Well, at leas t that is my take on it.

I read that too but I don't see her name in the casting list.

What I'm surprise at, that Lucious didn't get with Camilla. Camilla looks older then Lucious. In my head he dump her for Anika. Camilla mad that she went after the son Lucious like the most.

You just gave me an idea. This is lucious. I wouldn't put it past him to ask one of his past flames to initiate Hakeem into manhood. He would be extra sensitive to the subject considering that he has one gay son already. And since they are close, I could see that idiot thinking that Jamal would convince Hakeem to be gay too.

The spoiler is that Jamal has a kid by Raven character.

You know what, when he was looking at her in the promo there was alot of affectation in his eyes. But JESUS...I guess baby boy tried to play it straight...or is he bi.

And I feel some sort of way about it too. I am going to wait to see how it plays out before I get in my feelings.