Brideshead Revisited

[Sylph]

[Sylph]

I've started re-watching this show... And I don't know what to think about it. Jeremy Irons annoys me. Especially when he smiles – I often feel as if his timing is off when does that and it just comes off as awkward.

I didn't hate it when I first saw it, it was years ago, but now I find myself wondering: why on Earth did I feel the need to re-watch this show? It's turgid, depressing, none of the Marchmains is a sympathetic character. Except, of course, Sebastian, but why does he drink? Yes, I know, it is his mother's oppressing religion that suffocates him, as it suffocates the rest of them too. Yet I find all of this awfully... bizarre. I know it's the 1920s and certain thinks are unspeakable, absolutely forbidden and the interaction between members of a family are different. This is also an English Catholic aristocratic family and alcoholism was dealt with in a completely different manner than it would be today. Yet, I just get disappointed with Charles' attempts to change the route Sebastian is choosing.

Nor do I get Bridie: is he dumb? No. He is a typical aristocrat who learned early in life to black out certain unpleasant matters and thus became a sort of a robot who is often amused by the most unamusing, random things.

Has anyone watched this show? Is anyone willing to revisit Brideshead (it's on YouTube)? What did you like about it? What was it that you did not like?

[EricMontreal22]

It's perhaps my fave piece of TV--definitely fave miniseries, of all time. Looks like something we'll have to agree to disagree on again.

I did rewatch it (for the third time--I first saw it as a young teen) just over a year back and liked it as much as ever. My step mom apparently watches it every year or so and in college was obsessed with it with her roomate. It sounds like basically you wouldn't like the novel either (especially since, without a script for much of it they literally took their stuff from the novel). And of course Waugh's own struggles with homosexuality and his religious conversion play a part.

I think Sebastien drinks for a myriad of reasons, though of course one is that he simply is an alcoholic (early on Charles is shown to drink nearly as much as him--though Charles also, besides maybe lacking a chemical dependency, is able to break away from a far less controlling--or caring--family situation, and he seems a bit less muddled about his sexuality though that's a point many critics of the novel argue). But no, it definietely isn't a happy piece, and I do think the final few episodes are so depressing that they're hard to watch--something I didn't find as a teenager but did this last time. I rewatched it because a friend wanted to see it--and I had recently finally read the novel (which is, like I said, virtually identical to the miniseries--the gay kisses etc in the recent movie version ere not from the book as some people seem to think lol). Also having since read one of my fave novels Hollinghurst's Line of Beauty (which was turned into a not great, but pretty good miniseries) which is in many ways bsorta a thematic update on Brideshead...

What you find bizarre, I think I find true of human nature and maybe life itself. That's a depressing thought I guess, but I don't think in real life Chalres would have acted differently, as much as we would like him to, for example. I'm not sure what you mean about Birdie and not getting him--to me you summed him up perfectly (I believe he was directly based on a friend of Waugh's).

(If you want a laugh though, do check out the recent movie version and all the "changes" made even if they used the same gorgeous house).

But yes, I'm a huge fan--even if I admit some of your criticisms are things I'd agree with, but not necesarily see as criticisms (I also admit I like depressing stuff apparently). I know we have at least one other poster on here who considers it one of the best pieces of tv ever.

Oh and Irons is brilliant in it.

[Sylph]

You know where the problem lies? I just can't point out to what exactly is wrong with this. The simple answer is: nothing. It's perfect as it is. Although a part of me agrees with that very much, there is this whiff of something wrong about it, just a wisp, a hunch.

Is it the turgidity? The unrelenting depressing air that pervades it? The dampness of the Islands? No, not really...

The music is horrid. "It was charm again, my dear, simple, creamy English charm" – Anthony's line, albeit about an entirely different matter, is a perfect description. It's this faux-ancient English rural music, replete with a wailing trumpet and an oboe or two. Absolutely unbearable dreck.

Jeremy Irons. Like I said, I have a problem with his timing and certain dialogue, mostly the one consisting of one-word replies. It's just off, which in a majority, if not all of the cases was the desired result, I believe. Yet it annoys me. His age seems inadequate. But people do seem to find him a definitive Ryder. Explain to me why you think he is that great in the role?

What Anthony Andrews's Sebastian Flyte most definitely is. That was perfection. The physical change in the character was also remarkable. And today he doesn't look like himself at all. He and Claire Bloom had a reunion in The King's Speech, I'm sure you've noticed it. The charm, that wheat-gold hair, the air of an uncorrupted child, the looks, the gestures, the crying, the laughs – there was nothing Andrews did wrong.

And then – the absolute perfection of all perfections: Anthony Blanche. How Nickolas Grace never received some major role after this, I do not know. Perhaps he didn't want it, he went straight into operetta territory and did theatre direction while contemporaneously teaching at Central. The accent, the uvular R's, the stammer, the movement, facial grimaces, work with props – absolutely exquisite.

I can't say anything revolutionary about the rest, Lady Marchmain, Lady Julia, Cordelia, Laurence Olivier (!), Gielgud..., because they were all just extraordinary. The faithful reproduction of the original (Eric, I've actually read the novel, many years ago; I just love Evelyn Waugh's style, his art of the simile – majestic), the 'un-rushedness' of the whole production (they shot it over a span of two years, no?), the attention to detail... it all contributes to this seriously being just a definitive dramatic version of the novel. It's just harmful to do another version. There can't be another one. Simple.

I don't know, I kept re-watching those scenes in which Charles just slipped into not caring about Sebastian. Part of me got that from it – not caring, he just slipped. Then, later, he came to miss him. Don't get me wrong, had he done anything to stop it or attenuate it significantly, it would've destroyed the drama. Yet, why he gave him the money when he went 'hunting' is beyond me. After which he left the castle just like that. Which is another thing I don't get, although I obviously saw it coming. It's not his non-existent reaction to the harsh words of Lady Marchmain I contest to, it's the part where he exits the castle and does that voice over. I must re-read that novel, it should give me an answer or two.

Obviously, the charm of it is the untold, the unsaid. The mystery. Did he love him as he used to? What kind of love was it? Why did Sebastian slip through Charles' hands and willingly, knowingly so? Why did he give up and why did he really believe Charles was his mother's spy?

Then the alcoholism. Sure, Eric, I know he's an alcoholic. But what I'm asking you – why? Apart from the oppressive Catholicism of his mother and a possible gene he inherited from his father? Why yearn so much for your childhood when all your troubles come precisely from it? I mean, the book is literature and I'm commenting on it here as a simple piece of TV, not entering into any literary and philosophical discussion, which would be a bit out of place here and suited for an English literature class at some college, or wherever.

[Sylph]

Would it be... quartermainefan?

[quartermainefan]

It's the greatest show. I love the music, the scenery, the whole world that is so removed from our day to day that they created with such care. Then the acting and these great characters. I love how unrelenting it all is, especially the older brother being so ridiculously cold wuthout even realizing it. And that makes the father's girlfriend such a great contrast, and then Anthony too. And then you come back the to trapped in convention Cordelia and Julia who wanted to be more dynamic than the rest and the mother and you can see how stifling it all is. Then you get Sebastian and he is such a great character wanting to be happy but not really able to be. I love both fathers too. John Geilgud's character is practically from another planet.

Sebastian thinks Charles is a spy I assume because he has tried to escape before and she has a history of taking his friends and making them her friends or at least convicing them to rein her son in.

I also like the bookend pieces where Charles is feeling nostalgic and runs into Nanny Hawkins, because watching the army using the house and nobody home, you get a real sense of a world being lost. Same for the boat and NYC chapter where by that time everyone has been pretty much written out and you get this feeling of loneliness from the episode. You watched chapter after chapter of such a beautiful world with fully fleshed out characters and they all disappear one by one. I think in one of the later episodes Charles runs into Anthony, and it was such a welcome sight, like the return of an old friend.

I think bottom line for me is I have never seen a show before or since where every single character is brought to life so richly with a setting equally brought to life. Be it Oxford, Italy, that boat or their house, the show captured the atmosphere.

[EricMontreal22]

I'll reply in full later--I had a long reply typed out (probably too long ) but then my computer froze. But briefly--I actually really like *half* the music, the other half I find very dated and cheap sounding. So I partially agree with you.

Re the "turgidness" I dunno, I think the first half--at least the early episodes are often fun and quite light. Again I guess that's a fault with the source material and being faithful to it that it does get so depressing near the end (something the recent movie tries desperately to avoid but it simply doesn't make sense).

I'm interested that you're so conflicted about it though--I guess in my experience people either seem to take to it right away--or just have no interest in it from early on. The pacing may have something to do with that--as you say it takes its time (which appeals to me, but I get why it wouldn't to many).

Irons was cast late wasn't he? I know the miniseries was struck with SOO many problems (loss of director, etc, etc) it's a miracle that it came out so coherent at all. I'm actually not always an Irons fan--especially as of late, but I do find his Charles definitive. That said I saw him in the role before I went through my Waugh phase and finally read the novel. I wish I were better capable to say why I like him in the role so much. All I can think of is *for me* he makes a character who could easily be very unlikeable, relatable and understandable. Even the way he comes to almost reluctantly (like falling to his fate?) take on Sebastian's sister as a substitute for him. You're right, he does have a slightly off delivery--I dunno if that's partly to show (and maybe too obviously) that he doesn't quite "fit" in with this world--not just of Brideshead but the school, etc. He's also the observer character.

I do feel like he largely helped Sebastien as much as one could--especially given the time (as you've said). Sebastian is kinda lost to him before he sees him sick in Africa anyway--there' sa great divide between that part of the show and the earlier sections. (I guess this can get into questions of how notoriously well known it was, even expected, for British male students--in public school and even into college--to have very intimate relationships with each other--even if it's not clear if it's ever sexual or not, that almost seems to be the point, that because it's not necesarily that makes it more pure than what he later accepts. Of course that all goes into Waugh's own slightly fucked state of mind on the issue).

Sorry rambling... I don't wanna turn this into a lit class discussion, and I guess I have a tendency to talk that way because a lot of what I think and feel for the piece isn't really clear to me *why*, so it's easier to try to break it down and analyze when discussing it. When watching it a lot of it just makes sense to me--and there is a sense of fate, but I can't necesarily justify that feeling when I look into it.

Re the alcoholism--I'm not sure we are really meant to fully understand it, the way the characters don't quite either. Sebastian is always sorta an enigma (I'm sure some would complain that he's a typical example of the martyred/fallen homosexual in fiction but I think that's being too simplistic). Obviously he's shown as never really growing up (teddy bear or not)--whereas Charles clearly does grow up (into something of a bore to be honest). Is that why he never moves past homosexual affairs? And is that shown as necesarily a bad thing (when Charles' later life seems to be shown as some sort of acceptable but less intense substition for it?) or a reason he just drinks himself away? I dunno. And yeah there's the religion aspect which I guess is finally the main theme of the piece but is something I didn't grasp onto at all when I first saw it as a teen.

Anyway I think I'm basically agreeing with you that a lot of what's appealing is the mystery element, as you say. I find that relatable to my life anyway (which sounds more dramatic than it's meant to ), and something that often movies, tv series, etc, dont' allow to happen. Everything has to be explained (unless we're talking cop outs like Lost or some "arty" movies that are maddeningly unresolved).

Hrmmm

Oh and I think it might have been Quartermainefan--hopefully they'll see this and join in the discussion.

(As for the appeal of the series--and I know it was a massive hit both in the UK and on PBS--I don't think you can discount the lovely location shooting which is why my step mom always claims to like it best I did read a hilarious review on Amazon from someone who expected a Masterpiece Theatre type series like the others he enjoyed--and had to turn it off early on, horrified by a series that was glorifying these "perverts" )

Ha it was Quartermainefan And someone else likes the music besides me (though like I said some of the cues are completely wrong IMHO)

[EricMontreal22]

Did Sebastian really want to be happy? Sometimes I think so, sometimes I don't...

Anyway really well put about what you love about the show, and I think I concur with most of the points. Especially spot on about that sense of severe change and loneliness starting around the Ocean Liner - the atmosphere of the series is always so spot on that you really feel the shifts in mood. (Which is one reason you do start getting a sense of depression/hopelessness aroudn there I think). I almost forgot about the bookends--particularly his encounter with the Nanny.

[Bright Eyes]

Slyph has recently recommended I watch this. I have just seen the second episode. Until Sebastian arrives I was dead bored, "Not another war film" I said to myself. I did not want to read anything about what it was about, but instead watch the show with a completely blank slate. That's just my own personal preference of doing things. Anyway, as soon as Sebastian arrived with that Teddy Bear in hand, I became transfixed by its oddity. Anthony Blance and Geilgud's character, moreso the former, enter this realm of odd, yet extremely fascinating that I keep my eyes and ears wide open for. Not to mention, some of the quotes I find utterly hilarious. My favourites so far, ""Oh, and beware of Anglo-Catholics. They're all sodomites with unpleasant accents." & "English weather, (as Lord Marchmain points to the rain) "well, thank God it's driven the English away." His hatred for them amuses me significantly.

[EricMontreal22]

Hahah I have the same reaction when I see war scenes at the start of something.

I'll be interested to hear what you think as it goes along.

[Sylph]

Apparently, it was shot using 16mm film, which is one of the reasons I keep seeing complain by people about all the DVD releases. Not one was digitally remastered? Can it at all be to satisfy today's public's thirst for brash MTV-style photography? That's one of the reasons it looks like it does, so gloomy and grim, even in its lightest hours. It slowly fades, until it finally reaches its end, which was the begining: the depressing green uniforms of the military and sunlessness of another era.

So I was wrong to call it turgid. It's actually quite poetic. Very much so. I believe I was spoiled by the television of the last decade or a bit more, I keep seeing it with puzzlement. I can't get myself to understand certain motivations. Yes, I do believe it needed to end tragically, with a sort of an open end as well. But why did the Marquess of Marchmain in the end accept the faith he rejected for the whole of his life? Which then influenced Lady Julia so much that she renounced Charles Ryder? How come she realized the unbearable weight of her "sin" only then? It just exploded. When we first saw her in the series, she was very unlikeable. I don't remember what she called Charles, but she was a bit icy or nasty.

I mean, everyone in this show ultimately finds the faith which brought them so much gloom? Even Charles?! All that rambling and questioning and a dying man's acceptation of Catholicism makes him scratch whatever beliefs he might have had. I could list a bunch of reasons why the Marquess did so, yet I don't see why it affected them so much.

As for Irons's Charles, I kind of think he didn't start all that badly. He had a weird naivety when we first saw him, all those innocent glanced and a slight feeling of embarrassment. Then, later, he walked around Brideshead as if it were his. Right. With complete nonchalance, as if it belong to him ever since it was built. OK. Flytes really did destroy him.

You also ask how notorious were these relationships male students had with each other. That's another matter: I mean, all this Catholicism and aristocratic propriety, yet one of the sons brings his friend and they sun-bathe naked on the roof and all sorts of other things?! And no one says a word? It's debatable what sort of a relationship ultimately Charles and Sebastian had. I believe it was a platonic homosexual love, low door in the wall or no door at all. I don't even think that the door he refers to means something sexual. Sebastian surely was gay and Charles bisexual, although the latter too is a matter for debate.

Oh, no, don't stop. I quite enjoy it.

All very good question I'm not sure I would be able to reply to in a definitive fashion. It's funny that you mention martyrdom, because a part of me think Waugh made him exactly that. In a way he tried to sanctify his at times debauched existence. As if he was this poor soul who no one really understood, who came to this world only to suffer and end tragically. Simplistically, he might have tried to 'wash' the sin by making it a deed worthy of a beatification or something. Especially since the theme of faith pervades every affair in the book and the show.

Which brings me to another theme, often mentioned in passing and brought up by quartermainefan – the disappearance of old English nobility. That is what I find the most fascinating. However, I don't remember if Waugh ever truly suggest what might be the reasons for that, apart from some obvious social changes and so on. If that family was really that f?cked up, then no wonder they vanished. Somehow nature, fate or whatever has a way of purging the world of similar things. I don't know. Had they been exemplary and evolved with the times, they would've survived. Yet they refused, or didn't know how to, were left in the distant past and time just ran them over.

[Sylph]

I used to pay a lot of attention to that until it slowly faded. Gorgeous locations still 'amuse' me in a way, but I don't find them crucial.

Have you heard Adrian Johnston's score for the film? Is that one any better?

[Sylph]

He runs into him twice after the famous luncheon in a hotel in Thame: first at that party when he says how Sebastian lived with him in Marseille and stole things (what? I don't remember), still drinking heavily (My dear, he's such a sot. He came to live with me in Marseille last year when you threw him over, and really it was as much as I could stand. Sip, sip, sip like a dowager all day long. And so sly. I was always missing little things, my dear, things I rather liked...).

Then at the gallery: My dear, let us not expose your little imposture before these good, plain people. Let us not spoil their innocent pleasure. We know, you and I, that this is all t-t-terrible t-t-tripe. Let us go before we offend the connoisseurs. I know of a louche little bar quite near here. Let us go there and talk of your other c-c-conquests.

[Bright Eyes]

I finished Brideshead Revisited yesterday, watching the last five episodes consecutively. The scene were Julia just walks away from Charles after telling him she can't marry him is so haunting. I was so shocked they even went there after his relationship with Sebastien. Yes, through foreshadowing, I'd thought she'd steal him away, but not through loving him and sexual attraction. And I even though I hated him for being a terrible and cold father, my heart broke for him, knowing he would never have anything more to do with the Flyte family.

And Sebastien looked absolutely grotesque in the Morrocan hospital. I could barely look at him.

But what I found hilarious though, is through everything, Nanny Hawkins just sat in her room, minding her own business. If the story had continued, I have no doubt that bitch would have outlived them all. LoL

And the episode where Bridie announces he will be marrying. That was pure hilarity. I wanted to see Beryl so badly. Lord Marchmain actively voicing his displeasure of her was hysterical as well.