Sylph, they may have had a set of insane rules, but Y&R changed once again once the writers came back without Latham and Hamner (in a position of power).

Yes, that is a very good point. It DID change...noticeably. I think maybe that got a little better in the last 1-2 weeks...so maybe the team is also getting its' groove. But I'll concede that the TINY (credited) group during the WGA strike did pretty well.

The overall show was choppy again, scenes were too fast again, some stuff came out of nowhere, ect. These problems should be credited to those writers, not Latham and Hamner since Maria was around...

I think I disagree with you here.

Kay Alden, CLEARLY, _edited_ her scripts. Oh, maybe she had others do that too...but one got a clear sense that she did a thorough read-through and edit for tone and structure.

I think when you have a big team of writers, the early drafts and the show-to-show continuity are choppy by definition.

The trick is...and that is why they pay you the big bucks...at the upper level you're supposed to polish that diamond and make the "show sound like the show" (and also FEEL like the show too).

Whenever we see choppiness, I put the blame for that SOLELY at the HW/AHW level. That's a quality control problem more than a script writing problem.

Of course, if you have a breakdown/dialogue writer who CONSISTENTLY introduces non-sequiturs, poor structure, etc...that would be evidence for getting rid of someone who makes script editing harder than it needs to be. But for me, the buck really does stop with the HW/AHW on final quality control.

I found a Chris quote:

I honestly don't think any LML writers should be kept on. They have no history of the show and were purposely brought on because their style is completely different from what Y&R is about. The biggest problem with LML's Y&R was the horrible pacing and structure of the episodes. Odd quick cuts in the middle of big emotional moments, 2 second scenes, focus on plot, zero character development, etc. Wouldn't this be mainly the work of an AHW?

"Bill, Steve and Barbara wanted every second of airtime focused on the characters. So we replaced some traditional Y&R stylistic devices--like slow arcs and pans at the beginning of scenes -- withmore dynamic blocking and camera movement. We're cutting away sooner, rather than taking multiple reaction shots."

and

"The changes were initiated by Bill Bell, Steve Kent and Barbara Bloom, wo wanted to maintain the rich look of Y&R while picking up the pace in storytelling and production. Because they were in agreement about their vision and clearly defined their goals, it made the transition easier for everyone."

I definitely remember these. I remember how much hope they filled me with.

Sad, sad loss of opportunity. If Latham-Alden-Smith and Scott could have continued to work together, and been kept in balance, I think Y&R would be now (in a different way) what everyone is saying about OLTL. The show "with a bullet" to the top of the quality heap. I still think the early days of Latham (when everyone else was co-credited) had moments of sublime brilliance. But it all fell apart so ridiculously quickly when the balance of power shifted too far.

As you may know, Usenet Shirl hates it when I say that...she says there was NEVER a balance of power. (Shirl has a personal friendship with some of the classic Y&R writers who were dismissed). It was always, Shirl claims, top-down and disrespectful-of-history-and-legacy. Even if that is true, I'll say that when LML was "saddled" with the old guard, the resulting product was quite good. As she "unburdened" herself of Bill Bell Sr.'s legacy, there was a direct connection with the decline in show quality.

This is more than me wallowing in nostalgia. As JackPeyton has pointed out, the current ratings fall probably owes itself as much to LML's weakening of the show's base-of-indulgence with its' disappointed fans as it does to anything MAB is doing now. MAB's inability to fix the show is simply the straw breaking a camel's back already severely weakened by LML's Machiavellian final days on the show.

Yes, that is a very good point. It DID change...noticeably. I think maybe that got a little better in the last 1-2 weeks...so maybe the team is also getting its' groove. But I'll concede that the TINY (credited) group during the WGA strike did pretty well.

Yes, I agree with everything. However, this might be because Maria's didn't try to teach these people the real, Bell-esque Y&R. So all these people are left with are Latham's set of rules, which doesn't excuse neither them nor Maria.

The one big problem I have with Y&R is that it was never a writers' room soap. So these people are scattered all over the country, doing hours of teleconferencing throughout the week and that's just not the same as sitting in a room with your HW talking story, dialogue, structure etc. It might be harder for an inexperienced HW like Maria to have a feel for certain writers' shortcomings.

Kay Alden, CLEARLY, _edited_ her scripts. Oh, maybe she had others do that too...but one got a clear sense that she did a thorough read-through and edit for tone and structure.

She did edit scripts; that was one of her primary tasks during her time with Bill.

I found a Chris quote:

I think that Chris quote was very insightful.

I seem to think that--maybe--in the last week or so rain1 said something more explicit here, like not letting a conversation extend over two scenes. If I find it, I'll quote it here.

I seem to think that--maybe--in the last week or so rain1 said something more explicit here, like not letting a conversation extend over two scenes. If I find it, I'll quote it here.

It wasn't rain1, it was Sara A. Bibel in one of her blog posts.

So since we're seeing a lot of Sarnoff writers movements on Y&R, I hope Hogan brings Frederick Johnson, who is also a Sarnoffian!!!! (So is Josh Griffith.)

So since we're seeing a lot of Sarnoff writers movements on Y&R, I hope Hogan brings Frederick Johnson, who is also a Sarnoffian!!!! (So is Josh Griffith.)

That would be one of the things I'd love Hogan and Maria forever for! He's the only one in Hogan's universe that has extensive Y&R experience, training with Bill Bell. He's also worked with Agnes Nixon and Lorraine Broderick at AMC. If Y&R can fire some of their crappy AHW's, Frederick Johnson if he comes should be one of them...

Yeah, it's final.

So no Bennet & Gottesfeld, no McLaughlin & Ahern?

That would be one of the things I'd love Hogan and Maria forever for! He's the only one in Hogan's universe that has extensive Y&R experience, training with Bill Bell. He's also worked with Agnes Nixon and Lorraine Broderick at AMC. If Y&R can fire some of their crappy AHW's, Frederick Johnson if he comes should be one of them...

Yes! Thinking about it, he's a very good (if not excellent) candidate for the top spot. After all, Agnex Nixon wanted him as head writer, before his negotiations broke down and they hired another person for AMC.

I want Fred!!!

BTW: did you know that Diane Messina & James Stanley are repped by the oh-so-famous William Morris Agency (who reps e.g. Darren Star)? Interesting.

Edited June 1, 200817 yr by Sylph

It wasn't rain1, it was Sara A. Bibel in one of her blog posts.

So since we're seeing a lot of Sarnoff writers movements on Y&R, I hope Hogan brings Frederick Johnson, who is also a Sarnoffian!!!! (So is Josh Griffith.)

Who is Sarnoff? Is this a writing program?

Ah yeah, Sara Bibel. I always get her and rain1 confused.

Anyway, the quote you mention is at this link:

Rather then blaming declining ratings on poorly told stories, people behind the scenes are stripping some soaps of the structure, dialogue and look that made the genre popular. On The Young & The Restless, for a while the writers were told that no conversation should last longer than one scene. After all, they don’t in primetime. If that proved impossible, then it was imperative that there not be any “frozen time” moments – conversations that pick up right where they left off. They made the show seem slow. (Never mind that Y&R had been #1 every week since the Reagan administration by moving at an often glacial pace.) The result? The audience complained that everything was rushed, and suspense was undercut as it was impossible to sustain the tension between two characters if they were constantly being interrupted. Fortunately, the new regime at the show quickly restored the good, old-fashioned soap pacing.

ETA: Bibel quote

Edited June 1, 200817 yr by MarkH

So no Bennet & Gottesfeld, no McLaughlin & Ahern?

Nope, sorry, I think many of the show's current problems are squarely attributed to that 4some. IMO, Y&R's current AHW's suck...

Edited June 1, 200817 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

Who is Sarnoff? Is this a writing program?

James Sarnoff is, I guess, a guy who founded Sarnoff Company, Inc. The agency that reps a whole lot of soap writers. As I said previously, Josh Griffith and Hogan Sheffer among others. Tom Casiello also...

Nope, sorry, I think many of the show's current problems are squarely attributed to that 4some. IMO, Y&R's current AHW's suck...

Since Toups' 2007 episode writers list is confusing to me, can you list all of Y&R's BDWs? Thanks.

Since Toups' 2007 episode writers list is confusing to me, can you list all of Y&R's BDWs? Thanks.

Paula Cwikly, James Stanley, Darin Goldberg & Shelley Meals, and Marla Kanelos write BD's, I believe.

Out of that list, Paula Cwikly is the ONLY ONE I'd keep...

Edited June 1, 200817 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

Paula Cwikly, James Stanley, Darin Goldberg & Shelley Meals, and Marla Kanelos write BD's, I believe.

Out of that list, Paula Cwikly is the ONLY ONE I'd keep...

Kanelos is writing outlines?! Oh, you've gotta be kidding me... Anyway, when Toups comes, I'd be thankful if he wrote the Y&R team separated into two categories: BDW and SW.

I've been following the writers lists for Y&R and it goes like this:

Head Writer

Maria Arena Bell

Associate Head Writers

Cherie Bennett

Jeff Gottesfeld

Scott Hamner

Natalie Minardi Slater

Breakdown Writers

Darin Goldberg

James Stanley

Marla Kanelos

Paula Cwikly

Shelley Meals

Script Writers

Brett Staneart

Christian McLaughlin

Eric Freiwald

Linda Schreiber

Michael Montgomery

Sandra Weintraub

Valerie Ahern

Beth Milstein

I've been following the writers lists for Y&R and it goes like this:

Thank you, dmarex!! Though, BDWs and AHWs are supposed to be the same.

Edited June 1, 200817 yr by Sylph