juniorz1

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I already asked this, I think, but anyway, I read that NLG was going to leave Santa Barbara as it hadn't been canceled, as she wasn't thrilled with her airtime or the haunted house story. Do you think she was right?

You wanna know what I think, what I really think, since she probably won't pop in and say it herself? I don't only think that NLG is a brilliant actress but also a brilliant woman. And haunted houses or not, she knew what she had in Julia Wainright and she knew that she was never going to have that again. And though she may have fought for airtime and better writing, I think she knew that she was gonna play that role to the bitter end, til the last possible breath of camera airtime that she could take as Julia Wainright. So no matter what they did or put her through, she wasn't going to let anyone take that away from her no matter what they tried.

So No. I think she never had any intention of leaving or giving up that role until she got to say her last brilliant line of the entire series. Like her or not, NLG was a lot smarter than some of the people who left for greener pastures, whether they had to do it for themselves or not. She knew what she had, it was hers, writing or no writing, she WAS Julia Wainright Capwell and it was the grandest, most identifiable fantastical role she would ever play in her life. And it was going to end on her terms.

Simply put, she'd still be there today with rarely a break if it were still around. She would have played Julia until she was 80 and they would have been foolish to allow someone so capable, brilliant, and excellent and unique go so long as she'd stick around.

NLG would have chained herself to that set if she thought it would have bought the show another 6 months just so she could play Julia for 6 more months. She was and is today committed to everything Julia and Santa Barbara.

It's one thing to be in a period of grace, excellence, and something that's never going to happen again in your life. It's another to know it while it's happening.

NLG was one of the few who knew and GOOD FOR HER!

And if you really want to know, it was Paul Rauch who really caused the problem with Louise Sorel. Augusta was flirting with Dash well before the Dobsons. By the time she got there, she was infuriated and I guess expected Bridget to be as infuriated as she was, as Augusta has long-suspected to been based on her.

I think Bridgette appreciated the idea of an Augusta/Dash flirt-mance as a sorta Joe Perkins redux, but I think she would have written it as Augusta just wooing him in order to get him to admit to raping Julia, if given the chance to write it that way, which they never did. Hell, Augusta was on her way in a new path anyway and Bridgette didn't take long to have Dash admit he raped Julia, as anyone who'd watched the show knew all along anyway. Julia was a lot of things, but delusional and confused about the confines of a LAW was never one of them.

What was your favorite year of SB, and least favorite year? Or a year you thought was very strong, or very weak?

I LOVED 1986 the best. 1986 was magic.

1987 had A LOT of strong stuff too.

1988 faltered some. But Marcy Walker poured her HEART and SOUL into that rape and as a fan, it was ELECTRIFYING TO WATCH.

1989 started slow but ended strong.

I for one LOVED 1990.

The Dobsons came back in 1991 to a mess mostly created by Paul Rauch in the few months he'd been there. It was unbalanced.

1992 was ATROCIOUS from the moment I heard the name Pam Long on until the end.

It's funny Em getting a best daughter mention. It must have been in that sweet spot between Em donating the egg and trying to shag Larry.

That's all I could come up with. Allison.

I can't blame her for trying to shag Larry. At all.

GIVE ME THE BROOKE/THORNE/MACY ARTICLE!

I'm always curious, because I LOVED her on Days of our Lives and can not and will not ever accept Lauren Koslow because of her, but what was Deborah Adair like as Jill? I have her on my fanfic and I had never imagined her in the part before but LOVE writing the character FAR more with her in mind.

No Cole wouldn't have & Eve dying was fine.

Cole was best suited over on ABC romancing Little Budig. Eve dying, sorta remember and fine I think I agree with.

I think he left before it was announced.

Do you think if he'd stayed, and the show had gone on, that he could have survived without Eden?

Only if they paired him with Julia or Carrington Garland or Robin Wright were playing Kelly.

He wasn't gonna make it through recast soap star hell, that was for sure.

I loved Cruz-Julia scenes. A Martinez and Nancy Lee Grahn had as much chemistry with each other as they did with, respectively, Marcy Walker and Lane Davies, it just wasn't sexual. And how nice to see a soap scene again that advances the plot while providing intelligent dialogue and real character insight.

BEAUTIFULLY STATED!

However, with Eden gone, JULIA was ALWAYS the direction he should have gone in. They flirted once, sort of, for a brief sequence in the 80s and fans would have accepted Cruz with Julia before a badly recast Kelly. It's what I would have done.

It was the ONLY play to make with Cruz to keep your fans happy and provide years of story and a mess if Eden ever showed back up.

What they did was all wrong and it's why A wasn't there at the end.

So you think it was lack of interesting characters which made this more unsuited to the show than a dark story like Eden's rape.

Yes, quite frankly. If I had any mix of Julia, Kelly (GARLAND!), Eden, Augusta, Lionel, Gina, Mason, CC, Sophia, Keith (Deas) running the show and driving story, then yes.

The last interesting character SB created was Angela Cassidy and (TAH DAH!) She was a DOBSON creation. And she was perfect for the show, the best part of the final year, vastly underused, and the only rootable character left that could really rock and infect a story with some interest.

Not Zimmer and her family of Wrangler Jeans.

Dullsville and didn't suit Santa Barbara AT ALL. Where is the FUN in THAT?

There was none.

For SB to be right, the following characters had to be in play with properly cast actors (aka the original or best stand in)

Eden, Cruz, Mason, Julia, Kelly, CC, Sophia, Lionel, Augusta, Gina, Keith

Therein lied the magic of the show. Add:

Ted, Laken, Robert, Ric, Santana (GALLEGO!), Kirk, maybe Craig, Brandon

Stir and Mix.

She had already re-signed.

The Dobsons worked with her on GL. She and Harley Jane Kozak, who SHOULD have survived or been brought back. I LOVED the bond Eden and Mary formed when they were stuck with Kirk and Mark and I LOVED the Julia/Mary relationship and Mason/Mary. She worked so well with everyone it just sucked to see her get killed off when the character was getting some gumption just to depress poor Mason.

And sadly, Carl, I was commenting on how this thread has deteriorated to posters popping in to post a rare promo. Lenore Kasdorf was ok, but she wasn't Louise Sorel nor was she meant to be. She wasn't going to work long term. Neither was Jane. Or Alice. Or any random character that was in and out of what was once the Lockridge house during that period. So who cares that she came from Guiding Light to Santa Barbara?

A Guiding Light fan. That's who.

Nope, still Lane I'm pretty sure.

Good Heavens! PROMOS! My GOD! I have to visit this thread more often.

Here's a scene that captures everything that made Santa Barbara special and set it apart and yet probably seemed so small to the actors when they filmed it. But everything the characters say is so true it just brought me to tears after not having seen it in years. THIS, my friends, is why a Santa Barbara fan will never truly fall in love with another soap.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31o11RMb1nY

It's because Quinn was one of those supporting characters that fans take for granted- we love them but we're not overly enthralled with them and don't realize how much we love them and need them there until they're gone. I really liked her.

If Louise was the Cory maid, then yes, I do believe I remember some of her stuff, although I was very young in those days. Then again, I was only 5 when Kathleen Layman's MJ was around and I distinctly remember her!

I remember the exact Mother Hudson sequence you're describing and it was hilarious. And yes, the PSDonna/Felicia friendship was not only awkward but wrong. Anna Stuart's Donna had no friends. I remember a flustered and frustrated Michael going off on Donna when she said she didn't care for Felicia, saying that "everybody likes Felicia!" It was SO funny because it was SO true- Donna was just such a snob and disliked her for no reason, which I thought was HILARIOUS.

In fact, one of my favorite Donna sequences EVER was a couple weeks either in the 80s or shortly after Stuart's return when, in order to win back Michael, he challenged her to make friends with Rachel and Felicia. I remember her showing up to the Cory mansion making nice-nice with Rachel and I think inviting Rachel over to breakfast at the Love mansion. I remember Vicky Wyndham's reactions were PRICELESS, as she couldn't figure out what the hell Donna was doing. Donna did the same thing with Felicia and Dano had the same reaction that Wyndham/Rachel did.

I agree with you on Larry & Clarice- I really liked them, especially Larry, and thought they should have been kept around in a recurring capacity at the very least. I think they could have easily blended in with the late 80s/early 90s cast, including characters like John, Sharlene, Mitch, Frankie, Nicole, etc...

I didn't know that the show killed off Quinn- I liked her and could never figure out what happened to her. Was she murdered by the Sin Stalker?

LOL- I know AWHP was down at the time of your post because I was trying to look up the very same thing!!!! :lol: Great minds....

And finally, the show did a TOTAL number on MJ. She was a completely different character. As I said, under Layman, she was one of my favorite characters on the show during that period. In fact, MJ & Kathleen were my 2 favorite heroines on AW during those years.

Larry returned only for Mac's funeral. I believe Clarice was at Ada's funeral, but not Mac's. Nancy was at Ada's but I don't think she was at Mac's. Nancy returned for the anniversary party before Mac died.

Actually, according to AWHP, Clarice was at both Mac and Ada's funerals, while Larry was indeed only at Mac's. Speaking of Larry, wasn't there some storyline where he went undercover as a male stripper? Or is that just something else Rick Porter's done that I'm thinking of?

Either way, Larry was FINE and when Kathleen Layman played MJ and they were flirting with a Larry/MJ romance, I was all for it. They had TONS of chemistry. But my mom always told me then and when we've discussed Larry/Clarice well after they were gone that Larry would never have cheated on Clarice, no matter how much chemistry he shared with the "other woman."

MJ was a whiny and sniveling character with Sally Spencer in the role, but I have to admit I had a soft spot for her performance and I thought she managed to break through the degrading and disgusting material she was given.

I believe Layman was fired.

That's too bad about Kathleen Layman. Did you ever get to see her in the role Carl? It seems like you haven't or at least not much of her because if you had, I don't think you could have had even the slightest soft spot for Sally Spencer's version. She was just all kinds of miscast as the MJ I knew and loved, but then again, she was no longer written as RealMJ. I never will understand to this day why they recast and why they changed MJ's character so drastically. She was actually one of my favorite characters when Kathleen Layman played her.

I love Kathleen so much

Awww, me too as you already know. We seem to have similar tastes in AW characters and actresses. Like, for example, we both really liked Cali Timmins as Paulina and preferred her to Evans.

They started in July 1987. They said they wanted to start after the big Sin Stalker mystery because that was a clean slate. Frankly I think they should have started before the mystery, as it would have been something to get viewers hooked. I was startled at how barren Bay City was when the reruns began, and while I did grow to care for Sally Spencer's work, I'm not sure if weeks of episodes of MJ calling herself a whore was a way to lure in the viewers.

Agreed. It was a major turnoff in the beginning, though my mom and I still watched. We basically had to FF her and Philiece Sampler's NotDonna. Blech.

Yeah, MJ and that guy she was getting married to... i just didnt care. I did find him interesting and wished he wasnt gone so quickly, but her i was just annoyd by even though i did feel bad for her.

It was the arrival of Amanda that really got me watching daily in the reruns, and i came to quickly like most of the cast, namely cass first and then really became addicted. I was totally obsessed during amanda/evan affair and then when carl was targeting amanda.

the only things that turned me off from caring much was when a lot of focus was on sharleene because i found her highly annoying.

I agree about Sharlene- I liked her sometimes, found her annoying at others. I liked her best when Sharlene was a strong, proud woman, and least where she was a weak hot mess.

I LOVED me some Adam Cory (Ed Fry) though. I think he also started with Kathleen Layman's MJ and they had FAR more chemistry than he did with Sally Spencer's version.

A lot of it's early formula sounds like a more modern All My Children, using similar family designs (Ava/Kate = Erica/Mona, the Aldens = Tylers, etc.), which appeals to me.

It was- remember, it was created by Agnes Nixon and Doug Marland. I don't know too much about what went on behind the scenes on Loving but from what I've read and gathered over the years, I do believe Agnes Nixon was a stronger influence than Marland was. In fact, when Marland eventually left the show, he asked to be removed from the credits as even a creator.

Anyhow, I've seen the Ava/Kate and Erica/Mona comparisons time and again. Obviously there are Rachel/Ada comparisons as well. I do believe Ava/Kate were unique characters in their own right and their relationship lied somewhere in the middle of the other two that I mentioned.

I saw Ava as being a lot more fun of a schemer than Rachel, yet not quite as campy or over the top as Erica. I also believe, at least with Roya in the role, that Ava was a little more plain than both of them and certainly more simple. Ava was a schemer and wanted to be a social climber, but was WAY out of her league with people like Cabot, Isabelle, Ann, and ESPECIALLY Gwen. She was almost tragic to watch, as the viewers always kind of knew that Ava would never truly achieve the status she wanted to, no matter how she tried. Kate pretty much saw it the way that we did and while she loved her daughter and encouraged her to pursue her dreams (albeit not in the way Ava always went about it), Kate could see that Ava was destined for failure, yet she was helpless from stopping the trainwreck from happening. Ava was extremely headstrong and mostly didn't listen to anything that Kate said. In fact, Ava always took it as Kate not wanting her to move up in social class when it was usually just that Kate was trying to teach her that having class wasn't about money or marrying into it. It was something that could only be achieved with hard work, persistence, and honesty. Unfortunately, Ava only possessed one of those qualities (perserverence).

As for Kate stacked up against Mona & Ada, I think Kate was tougher than Mona but not nearly as tough as Ada. She was also decidedly more lower-middle class than either of them and more like a real life mom at the time. She worked for a living, kept a nice home, and was a very proud woman. She had this inner strength and she herself could go toe to toe with the Aldens and Gwyneth any day of the week. She was a strong woman who could say more with a look or a glance than some women could say with an entire monologue. And Nada Rowland was an excellent actress who was able to play it without many words. Instead, she gave a lot of meaning to the few words she was given, whether it was giving advice or standing up for herself or Ava. She was brilliant and Rowland & Megnot had some of the best mother/daughter chemistry I've ever seen in daytime, I think even moreso than Heflin/Lucci but again, not quite as much as Ford/Wyndham.

Just another case of Ava/Kate once again falling somewhere in between Rachel/Ada and Erica/Mona. Either way, they were quite brilliant and their relationship was fascinating to watch and a key element in making Ava's character work. It's why, as much as I love her, Lisa Peluso took A LOT of getting used to in the role- some of those things that made the relationship special, like Kate's knowing that Ava would probably never fulfill her dream of moving into the upper crest of Corinth society. Because Peluso's Ava COULD and did move into the upper class and certainly could hold her own with Gwyn and the Aldens where Roya's Ava could not.

Denise Alexander is wonderful but putting her in the role of Mary McKinnon when the only McKinnons on the show were two helpless and needy daughters never made sense to me. Why put her in that role when Kathleen (the heart of the family) and Jake were leaving, and Vince was being recast?

I rather liked Cheryl, but I see your point. I agree that MJ was needy and helpless though, at least with Sally Spencer playing the part and she was by then. MJ was not at all a victim when Kathleen Layman played her- she was much stronger and a very good cop. I loved Layman and have often wondered why AW let her go and replaced her with Spencer. Was she fired? Did she quit? Does anyone have any idea? I honestly don't believe I've posed that question before so if anyone is able to enlighten us with the answer (paging all lurkers or maybe thelma or denzo30

I always thought during this period, AW never thought ahead or was proactive. When they hired Denise, they knew Jake and Marley were leaving, but I'm not so sure about Kathleen. Also, from what I recall, wasn't Anna Stuarts departure kind of a surprise? That's why Scott's story had to be so quickly adjusted. Also due to the fact her recast was so much younger.

I'm not sure they were 100% sure that Julie Osburn wasn't coming back as Kathleen either. I believe that it was always the plan for Cass to return in 6 months- wasn't it Schnetzer's choice to take a break from the show? I think they may have thought they worked out the same thing with Osburn as well and that she'd return in 6 months with Schnetzer.

I'm not certain about this though. I think it was always the plan for Schnetzer to come back (and Osburn to join him) but if anyone has any information or online sources for this information, please post it!

I think Denise did a great job with what she had. I just felt like the character never found a place. I wish they'd done more with her social work and her job with Michael.

I sort of agree with this and sort of don't. I think that Denise was given a thankless and pointless character who was virtually isolated from most of the the characters in the cast. I'm pretty sure her main interactions were with the Loves, Michael, her own family, and a sprinkle of Cass & Felicia.

I don't remember her interacting with Rachel & Mac at all, at least on a one-on-one basis. I'm sure they shared scenes in party sequences or if Mac & Rachel ever came into Mary's Place but not much else. The storyline with Reginald, Vince, Mary's amnesia, and Scott's real parents was a muddled, convuluted mess and it's the only real story Denise/Mary McKinnon was given. After that was over, she didn't do much except work for Michael and dispense advice to Cheryl (her last remaining biological child) and Scott. I don't even think she had much interaction with Jake when Tom Eplin returned to the show!

I'm sure Denise is a fine, talented actress (my mother raves about her portrayal of Susan Hunter(Martin?) on DAYS) but I did not care for her on AW and haven't seen her work on any other soap (I've never really been a GH fan and the few times over the years that I've watched, I haven't ever caught Leslie Webber).

There was a scene when she returned briefly for Kathleen, in 1991, and she couldn't stomach being around Jake. Denise did a fantastic job and it showed what the character could have been. I wish they'd kept her on in a recurring capacity during Kathleen's return. Kathleen was so isolated and it was tough to watch.

Shoot, I don't believe I ever got to see this. Did it make it to air on SoapNet? I can't remember- I just know they were getting to the meat of the Kathleen/Cass/Frankie triangle when it went off.

I know she was at Mac's funeral in 1989, but did she make an appearance for Ada's funeral when Connie Ford died in 1993? I know they brought some characters back for that (Larry & Clarice came back, didn't they? Or am I confusing that with Mac's funeral? I know there were some characters who returned for both but I can't remember who exactly.

Either way, I do agree that Alexander should have been kept around in a recurring capacity in 1991 when Kathleen returned. Hell, I think that Robert Hogan's Vince should have been recurring for that as well.

Did Vince return with Mary to reunite with Kathleen? It only seems fitting that he would.

saynotoursoap- Do you by chance have any clips or episodes that include the Liz/Dan/Susan storyline? I've read so much about it on this site over the past couple years and being the Marie Masters fan that I became when I started watching in 2000, I'm DYING to see her play out this storyline that sounds like it had some real teeth.

OMG Carl! Thanks SO much for posting that article! I had forgotten all about Louise Stubbs as Minnie Madden- she was such a delightfully unique character. It's a shame she didn't last longer than she did. She certainly wasn't a token black character, that's for sure.

I wonder if Loving had remained more on track it could have lasted longer? There was a TON of turnover it seems. It would find it's footing, then lose it, re-invent itself, find it's footing, lose it, and so on and so forth. Shame.

I guess they benefited from the strength of ABC in the 80's and early 90's but sometimes I wonder if the show was ever THAT much of a mess onscreen, considering it did last for 12 years.

To consolidate my post, I'll respond to both of your posts together, since they go hand and hand. First of all- Carl- I don't think the show was ever THAT much of a mess onscreen, at least during the main years of my viewership, which were the 1987-1991. I LOVED the show and frankly grew to like it even more than SFT, which I had watched before it. This could also have to do with the fact the I was only 7 when Search went off the air, but I do remember a lot of it and I loved much of the cast. Sunny Adamson, Hogan McCleary, Liza Sentell (Sherry Mathis), Wendy Wilkins(Lisa Peluso), Cagney McCleary, Estelle, TR, Suzi (Cynthia Gibb), Quinn McCleary, and of course, Stu Bergman & JoAnn Tourner.

But Loving fit the bill beautifully and I quickly fell in love with Ava Rescott, Kate Rescott, Clay Alden/Alex Masters, Egypt & Minnie, Gwyneth Alden, Cabot & Isabelle Alden, Trisha Alden & Steve Sowolsky, Harry Sowolsky, Ned Bates, Jack Forbes, Lily Slater, and my fave Loving diva of all-time, Ann Alden. I think the stories I initially remember best are the Ned/April love story and triangle with the popular blonde girl whose name escapes me, the Stacey/Jack/Lily fatal attraction story, the Gwyn/Harry/Ann triangle, the introduction and mystery of Rick Stewart (eventually revealed to be Gwyn's biological son), and the Gwyn/Clay/Ava triangle which eventually turned into the Alex Masters storylline and triangle with his real wife Egypt.

I actually fell in love with the show even moreso than I was with Search. It was the little show that could- as EricMontreal often mentions, it was almost like a secret society of viewers. I have never met anyone in real life, except my Grandmother, who watched the show, especially from 86-91. It definitely didn't feel like a mess to me onscreen- in fact, I felt like they packed a lot of story into each 30 minute episode, much of which was character driven. I certainly felt that it was a lot better than SFT was when I watched that show from 83-86. I loved the pacing of it, I loved the characters, and I especially LOVED the contrasting mother/daughter relationships of Kate/Ava and Gwyn/Trisha. It was clever and ironic that Ava had this wonderful Earth Mother in Kate, yet she was a troubled, spoiled, social climbing vixen, and then Trisha, whose mom was major diva Gwyn, was this sweet, salt of the earth privilidged girl. I found both relationships fascinating to watch.

Did Loving ever set the Earth on fire with their plots? Not really. Was I enthralled with it like I was with Santa Barbara, and to a lesser extent DAYS & AW? Nope.

But I loved the show for what it was and that was character-driven storytelling through rich familial relationships and strong friendships and bonds that went beyond the class system the show set up. I enjoyed the hell out of it from 87-91 and didn't find it at all uneven, let alone a MESS onscreen.

Yup, definitely Cruz & Eden's song, probably my favorite Cruz & Eden song too...

Agreed, especially in the early to late 90s- it was so tawdry, which is what I loved about it.

Plus, they had the sexiest slimeball ever to grace soaps- Brent Jasmer as Sly Donovan :wub:

KKL looks so FIERCE in that picture with Thorne. I wish she'd have kept that hairstyle- she looked like a million bucks!