P.J.

LOL...I found myself way overexplaining the plot. And I knew I was forgetting another notorious plot! I've always felt squeamish about the fact Billy's bio mom was a whore. But it explains his fascination with party girls like Reva and Nadine.

Infinity was a group that wanted to take over Sampson Industries. Long story short, because of Kyle taking over Lewis, and Kyle claiming to be HB's son (HB even lies and tells him he is, even though the truth is that HB and Sally are Billy's parents, not HB's wife Martha. It makes Billy and Kyle maternal half-brothers. Kyle's father is another former lover of Sally's.) he and Billy are enemies. Billy's lost his job, starts gambling and drinking too much and is in danger of losing his and Van's home. Kyle's friend David, who's his second in command, is part of Infinity and decides to use Billy's natural hostility to program him to kill Kyle. It nearly works. The music video, featuring Mindy and the Infinity symbol is played at Mindy's reception. Billy shoots at Kyle, but hits David. In the confusion, David is about to shoot Kyle himself, but hits Maeve, Kyle's former lover and Reva's rival. David's shot and killed by his lover Suzanne (played by Frances Fischer). Billy goes on trial, but is saved when Beth and Jackson play the music video (that has the Infinity symbol in it) and a trance-like Billy raises his finger (like one would a gun) and starts mumbling "must kill Kyle" and "I don't want to shoot my brother" or some such. It's a lot more complicated, of course, and it's kind of infamous among GL fans as a bad story (before Clone Reva, it was probably the most egregious example of GL trying to jump into GH/DOOL territory). It's a lot plot-heavy, and involves a lot of disposable characters, but it is grounded in a family conflict. And those aspects are more relatable. Re: "golden era" of GL. As you've figured out, there are probably several. I think the Long/Curlee era (mid-89 to mid'93) was the best mix in terms of story and acting. Most of the stories flow organically and build on each other. There's a mix of characters both generationally and from different eras for the viewers. The stories are grounded, not shock for shock's sake, and for the most part avoids trying to copy trends. The Marland and first Long era have lots of upside, (the Marland era with Morgan/Kelly/Nola is what hooked me on soaps in general, and Long with the Lewises). I haven't seen much of the Dobson era (or don't remember it) but I'm intrigued by what I have seen, and it has characters I recall, like Rita, Evie, Jackie, Justin and of course Alan. '86-'87 are rocky, '88 is a quagmire due to the writers strike, '94 is a mess, the mob/SanCristohell era grates. And '05 to the end is a sad decline.

Well...I don't think anyone can. lol. But I could see Lujack and Beth's wedding being at the crux of the Infinity reveal. It wouldn't really change the dynamics of Billy shooting Kyle, except maybe casting a little doubt on Billy's motives for being there or how happy he was before "snapping" and shooting. That dress probably weighed as much as Krista. Thanks! Yeah...I don't recall that at all. But it does renew my dislike of ol' Jeff. Billy, bless him, was never as stodgy as Josh. The only real difference between '80's Billy and '00's Billy is he's less angry. Rewatching the '80's, I'd forgotten how violent he could be. Well, it doesn't help that there are some gaps in episodes. But you've got a point. I believe Quint proposed to Nola just after nearly getting killed by Rebecca. Not exactly fun, happy times. I like Billy and Van's second proposal. They've had a bet about who will win a client, but at the end, each tries to convince the client to give it to the other. They meet up in the dining room where they'd first met, expecting to lose. the bet was, if Vanessa won, Billy would run an ad proclaiming her the better business person. If Billy won, Van had to propose to him, and he had the option to decline. The client, Agatha, knows what's going on between them, and chooses neither of them. But Billy reveals that he's run the ad, proclaimed his love and asked her to marry him. Van comes prepared to get down on bended knee (she's brought a rug as to not ruin her dress). They both end up on their knees and sort of accept each other's proposals. But I wouldn't have organically remembered it, and don't really recall any others. But other than Carly and Jack's from ATWT, I don't think I remember any.

You do just want someone to interview whoever was in charge (or whoever's left) and ask "WHY is this so over the top?" They could've cut this back by 2/3 and still had a wedding that would've rivaled Quint/Nola or (later of course) Josh and Reva's. It can't be only because of the Infinity story. I almost wonder if GL hadn't wanted to marry Beth and Lujack, but VI's leaving put a crimp in that plan. And left them with no option but Mindy and Kurt. (Kurt could've spent 20 years on this show and not been worth all this hoopla.)

And honestly, this is one of those times I should've been less up in my feels while posting. To it's credit, GL did bring him back, and while it may not have been the way I wanted, Billy was still a vital part of Springfield. These are by no means just token appearances. It would've been infinitely worse for me if all of the sudden both of Bill's parents just suddenly ghosted him, and only shown up for the occasional wedding or funeral (ala Hope or even Ed). And while he might not be everyone's favorite, I rarely hear anyone say they ever got sick of Billy, the way being forced into nonsensical stories has a tendency to disenchant viewers. (coughRevacough). Billy and Van work for a lot of reasons (gee, you'd never know that, because I so rarely post about them...lol). I think they ground each other in good ways. They aren't Josh and Reva, which may have been equal at one time, but just became and endless string of Josh forgiving Reva for (insert lie/stupid move here). Billy and Van loved each other for who they were, not who they could've (or had) been. I'm not sure the show would've invested in getting Ross a viable love interest, had they busted Blake/Ross up. As adored as JvD was, I think the show would've just used him as the town's lawyer, Dinah's dad, Phillip's uncle and possibly aged the twins to give him story.

I think it's mostly about anointing Mindy as a pretty pretty Princess. She and Kurt hadn't even been dating that long. Aside from Trey and Sloane's wedding on Capitol, it has to be the most opulent wedding CBS ever aired and that P&G ever produced.

LOL...OMG...Billy and Van's first wedding was entertainingly chaotic. I wish I had rewatched it before their final one, as I really didn't get why Billy was waxing poetic about "spontaneous weddings" at the time. I think comedy really requires a light writing touch, and everything McTavish did usually stank of overkill. Much like Nola's spaghetti western fantasy of shooting "Quint", there's stuff that sounds funny on paper, but just doesn't play that way on the screen. While I'm giving up criticizing **** for Lent, foodborne illnesses and the consequences thereof, are by their very nature, not funny. At least if you're older than five. You can write a "disaster scenario" wedding without toilet jokes.

hmmm. Maybe Blake's? Although maybe Kat's gone by then. Eleni? I'm going to regret asking...but Jeffrey kept Hope away from Michelle? Billy is a pot-stirrer in the '80's and early '90's. While he's not the patriarch of the Lewises per se, I think his arrival kind of energizes both Josh and Trish, who were a family unit, but didn't have a lot of conflict between them. He also antagonizes Alan, and later Reva. He's actually the Big Bad in the first go-round of Josh/Reva. (He's either sickened that Reva is sleeping her way through his family, or obsessively jealous, take your pick.) When Kyle comes to town, he takes him on. When Billy comes back in '89, he becomes Roger's foil. (While almost everyone else in town also is, he's really the one who sort of enjoys the thought of taking Roger on.) And of course, he brings out a more sympathetic, rootable side of Vanessa. When Jordan returns in '97-ish, he's more of the support character. He's there when family needs him. I caught some silly scene when he's helping Bill break out Olivia from a nut hut or something, which is kind of funny...but a little sad, knowing he used to be a force to be reckoned with. As much as Zaslow or Deas were always lauded for their work, Jordan deserved lead emmy consideration for his work as well. He won a supporting actor emmy around '06-'07, which was long overdue, imo.

I know people think '93 starts to slide, (and full disclosure, I'm too heartbroken to watch after Jordan Clarke's exit) but I think the first half is classic soap. I'd put those scenes with Ehlers/Deas/Carol in my top ten. BE is fantastic confronting her parents. And Maeve gets some great lines---"what are you going to do, Nadine? Put it in the oven and broil it?" and (when asked where she came from) "my mother's womb--I think. Where did your baby come from?"

Well, that's always been Frank's story. Being Greek is not really integral to the introduction of the Coopers, that I recall. I guess GL had already done Irish roots with the Reardons.

LOL...imagine Nola and Vanessa doing a riff of Old Acquaintance. OMG...

Well, the Quint/Nola playlist only has five separated out: Dracula, Wuthering Heights, Casablanca, Jane Eyre and Now, Voyager. The one during Billy and Van's (near) engagement is probably The Maltese Falcon as it references Sam Spade. I've also caught a couple of references to a Dark Victory one. Oh, and I'm surprised they wouldn't have done 42nd Street, as Lisa was starring in it while on the show. Soaphub has a snippet of a Marland interview crediting the first fantasy scene as A Place in the Sun, when Nola is going for an abortion. And Shipmates Forever. Meanwhile, I've been fantasy casting The Women in my head all afternoon. @DRW50 thanks, that makes sense!

I think there's one where she's Miss Marple. And one noir-ish one like Maltese Falcon/Murder My Sweet (this one actually annoys me as it pops in the episode where Billy proposes to Van. Nola's fantasizing while waiting for them. UGH.) It seems like there was also one during Bertue Higgins performance of Key Largo. And I'd bet that was either Key Largo or maybe To Have and Have Not. It probably would be easier to look up the Quola Playlist. :)

It's no wonder I have zero interest in revisiting the McTrash era. Does anyone remember---were Nola's original fantasies just mostly her and Quint? I know a couple of the earliest ones were her and John Wesley Shipp, and one of the last was the Wizard of Oz thing about picking a name for AJ, that had Henry and Bea (I forget who else). I was just thinking, it would've been interesting if they'd done an all women one, ala The Women, after Lisa returned. They'd done an all guy episode for Hamp's bachelor party, but I can't recall them reciprocating and doing one with just the women.

@Mitch64 @Soaplovers @alwaysAMC Thanks! I only asked because I was thinking---the "Nola hides Buzz in a cellar" really sounded like a Nadine-like plot. While I'm biased against Nadine, I think TIIC made a mistake making her the third wheel in the Jenna/Buzz story. She needed to do something vaguely redemptive after the Peter fiasco, and it doesn't sound like she did that. "Being a good grandma", or dispensing mom-ish advice to Lucy ain't that. The more I hear of this, the more of a horror it sounds like. Vanessa-GD-Chamberlain would never have a wedding catered out of a diner. I don't care if Eleni was suddenly a world class chef with Michelin stars. What? The nearest Chuck E Cheese was closed? RME. This is pure McTrash, isn't it? And that's what they wrote for their It couple? RME. Side note---I don't think Maureen and Nadine ever acted like they knew each other "back in the day", even though you'd think people from 5th Street and 7th Street would. And really, Nola shouldn't have even been a teenager by the time Frank was born.

Nola and Nadine overlapped, right?

They did a soft reboot on Nadine just months into her arrival in town. Initially, while still vaguely a gold-digger, she's at least sympathetic enough to catch Ross' attention. She even does some good deed when she lets Josh swipe her clothes so he can escape after going on trial. But once Vanessa hits town, she's a lot more grasping and bordering trashy. And pushy and ditzy. Leaning into the more comic aspects of her was probably also to distance her from what she'd done re: Peter. While not outright evil (like when Eddie engineers Michelle thinking Hope was dead) she'd still really skated on all her lies, aside from losing Billy.

Nadine had started betraying Billy before HB, before leaking Vanessa's name. Nadine handed (or told) Roger that Billy was secretly converting a warehouse (that was next to the Towers Spaulding was building) into a homeless shelter back in the Spring of '90. Then he wanted her to spy on Billy to see if he had the deed to the land the Towers was built on. But she always managed to slide by. Either it was deemed unimportant after the fact, or Van wouldn't be able to prove it, or her kids would cover for her. Frank even covers for her about leaking Vanessa's name, it's the reporter who told Billy. Objectively, Nadine's insecurities aren't unfounded, but she always just goes that step too far. She handled the entire situation badly. First she accused Van of making it up to get Billy's attention, then she said she deserved it, which really cheesed Billy off. But yeah---Billy lost it when he found out she'd leaked Vanessa's name, and not only was he having divorce papers drawn up, he was telling Vanessa he wanted her back (which was the worst kept secret in town). If not for her sleeping with Fletcher, he'd have put a ring on it, (Which I find endearing as a Billy/Van fan.) Nadine is who Reva would've been in the hands of most writers. A shorter term antagonist/speed bump to the Billy/Van end game. And now I want to go rewatch all that arc.

If you're going to start '92, start in January. All but the first week is there. Just a tidbit of background on the Billy/Van clip---it was right after their first major breakup. Billy proposed, but each found out the other was broke. Van gave him a blackeye, and left town for a bit. (Hence the zinger Van hurls about meeting honest men.) The tiny bit that was cut out was Vanessa telling him she'd realized she'd been relying on men all her life and that she'd made a resolution not to continue doing that. The way she squeaks "I LIVE HERE!" just slays me.

Re: Gilly. It wasn't just about this or David, but how she'd let herself get sucked into being Roger's henchwoman over the past year. Holly really spent '92 in a tailspin, first with realizing Daniel St John was a killer, then with Ross and Blake's affair coming to light. Roger began using Gilly and spreading his influence at WSPR. While all the while Gilly was assuring Hamp she wasn't going to play Roger's game and was actually protecting Holly's interests, etc. By the end of '92 or very beginning of '93, Roger fires Holly and I think keeps promising Gilly the job. Then Roger blackmails her, and instead of just telling Hamp, she sandbags HB. (which isn't even about HB, but humiliating Billy, who's given Hart a job).

I disagree somewhat. I think Alan was needed on the canvas. Just a better Alan, written like Alan, and not some huffy-puffy Daddy Warbucks that let women walk all over him. I agree about Alan's unveiling, complete with Alex, ALEX, dramatically fainting. Roger's mask I can be more forgiving about, because it was meant to be a shock to Springfield (even if we knew by then he was still alive). The swinging vine? Yeah, that was overkill. He could've simply fallen out of the loft, and surprised everyone. I didn't mind Buzz putting the screws to Nadine. It was everything else--the fake accent, the obnoxious persona (even more obnoxious than screaming, arm-flapping Buzz), the general smarminess of him, that just grated. I just caught part of Reva's arrival. Gosh, Chris Bernau was so perfect as Alan.

Oh, me too. It really decimated my playlists. The vault is great, but I had my playlists fine-tuned.

Sometimes you just need that break. I love Phillip, but I don't miss him in the '91-'93 period at all.

Considering the BIG names that leave in '90-'91, that GL didn't crash was an accomplishment. Of course, they'd also brought back Roger, Holly, Billy, Van, and Mindy. But I think we've all seen shows that even one departure leaves a big hole in the canvas. It's a challenge. Even when you know what's going on. :) Guys don't wear gloves often. This and Quint and Nola's engagement ball are the only ones I really recall them doing that. Maybe Mindy's fairytale wedding. That outfit on Maeve is pure glam. I'm not the fashion expert by any means, but it's sexy without being blatant. Vanessa was our little fashion darling at this point in time.

Henry and AM do work together when AM uncovers Roger's embezzlement. And Henry mentored all the Spauldings (Alan before they all came to town, Amanda, Phillip and AM a little bit) but he was never going to chose them over Van. Billy never trusted the Spauldings, and never, ever would've allowed them into Lewis. There's a point where a Lewis-Spaulding merger is floated (when Phillip is taking over Spaulding) but Billy is offscreen for that and HB and Alex's romance (which would've put him on the defensive as well). The only Spaulding he partially trusted was Nick, and that soured over time. And I loved AM as well. Even when he was a stinker.