vetsoapfan

No harm, no foul, no sweat.🙂

In no way did I ever say, or imply, that I give Stern and Black a pass. I acknowledged their contribution to ATWT was weak. I would never hire them to steer any soap again. I said they were not my choice for the absolute WORST writers in daytime's history. That cannot be construed as giving them a pass. I'd add Henry Slesar's years at The Edge of Night to my dream list of TGL, ATWT, AW, DAYS, Y&R, OLTL, GH, AMC and probably even SOM (all in their best years, not necessarily in their entirety). Most people I speak to agree he was a destructive, negative force.

The unabortion ranks down there in the pit of soap-story hell, and I agree with MMcT beings dreadful, but overall, I have to say JER was worse. Not like JER, Carlivati, Pratt, McTavish, Racina, Higley, and others whose tenures seemed to last forever. That's why I assert that Stern and Black were not the worst of the worst in the history of the genre.. When TPTB don't care about older viewers of soaps, they are signing the shows' death warrants. Older viewers are a huge part of the potential audience. Alas. 🥺 Over the years, I have also thought about the different ways which the Stewarts could have been revitalized and returned to prominence. But I knew the show, its characters and its history, and I cared about ATWT's legacy. I have a feeling this was not the case among the revolving door of TPTB. Me too. And to give Marland credit, he kept David Stewart's presence alive on the show until he had no other choice than to replace Henderson Forsythe with another actor, or lay the character to rest. And after David's death, Marland kept Ellen around and seen fairly regularly. Marland knew that on ATWT, audience love for the characters was strong.

UGH! JER eviscerated DAYS, IMHO. MMcT might have been somewhat less heinous, but she really stunk up the joint in Springfield and Pine Valley. It is bewildering that soaps have failed to cultivate and hire quality writers in so many, many years. Obviously, recycling familiar hacks who have failed everywhere else does not work. At the very least, hiring Stern and Black was a stab at trying something different. Having watched the show my entire life, I was quite partial to the Lowell/Stewart family, and Ellen was its remaining lynchpin. I was furious when TPTB dropped the character without any reason given on-screen (at the time, anyway). I had to admit, however, that with almost all of her family gone, and with Ellen a widow, I was surprised she lasted as long as she did. Actually that is a good point: GH's use of "older" characters may very well be an attempt to interest/lure back lapsed (now older) viewers. The show would probably not feature appearances by Scorpio, Anna and other folks of a certain age to bedazzle 18-year-olds in the audience. One could say that DAYS might be continuing to use Julie, Doug, Maggie, Marlena and John because of longtime viewers' loyalty to those characters, not in an attempt to pander to Gen Zers. The fact that ATWT held on to so many of its older veteran actors was an incredible gift. It was just an infuriating waste that Sheffer barely used them most of the time. I'm not fan of Jean Passanante, but at least she did pay attention to folks like Bob and Kim more than Sheffer did. Yes, the "suits" should have backed off decades ago and let soaps be soaps and do what daytime dramas do best, without all the ((ahem)) helpful hints and outright mandates from TPTB. The micro-managing was always misguided at best and harmful at worst. I will hold my breath, pinch my nose, and give Frank a brownie point for that. In all seriousness, many executive producers would have dismissed many of the veteran actors and characters. With a lot of them still on GH's canvas, there's at least a chance they will be used well someday. Fingers crossed, Patrick Mulcahey. What a shame that we will never see ATWT get the chance to shine again.

This is an honest question and NOT in any way meant to come across as snarky. What are the remaining soaps doing these days that indicate they are working towards improving their general ratings? From my (admittedly limited) interest in today's soaps, I only see them making the same old mistakes over and over again. And also, do you think that the way TPTB are handling the surviving soaps will do any good and actually help the anemic ratings increase? Again, no snark intended. But things can always...get worse, LOL! Seriously, from my personal experience viewing their ATWT material, I do not believe they were the worst-of-the-worst soap scribes. Not great by any means, but soap fans have endured weaker and more destructive head writers, IMHO.

Oh, yes, if intelligent, perceptive and knowledgeable PTB had been in charge a few decades ago, and had worked effectively to stop the hemorrhaging of daytime dramas, old warhorses like ATWT (which still had a viable, but misused, foundation upon its cancellation) might very well have survived and potentially even thrived. Unfortunately, the money-hungry and oppresive, micro-managing suits just continued to drive the shows into the ground. You can listen to vintage radio soaps and watch older television episodes from the 1950s, and quickly become immersed in the drama because it was predicated on identifiable human emotions; experiences the audience often shared and could identify with. It's telling to me that in 2024, so many viewers are caught up in the Hortons losing their house, the family's Christmas ornaments being at risk, and Doug's impending death. Nobody expresses this much emotional involvement in brain implants and uber villains threatening to kidnap the central heroine for the 17th time. The viewers want the timeless basics of the genre. They're not getting them. The soaps are dwindling away. And after decades, TIIC still don't get it.

The soap press died a long, slow and brutal death; much like the soaps themselves. I get sh*t for saying this from stans who insist that I must praise the soaps to the heavens at all times, to convince TPTB to keep them on the air, but honestly? With little-to-no hope of the genre ever healing, I wouldn't be too crushed if the remaining four shows were laid to rest. Put them out of their misery.

Perfectly said. When ATWT was number one in the ratings for its first two decades, and when it commanded fierce and unwavering fan devotion, a sense of community, warmth, humanity, family values and decency were the cornerstones of the show. When all those "old-fashioned" tenants were wiped out in favor of harsh, mean-spirited and callous shenanigans, the show was in deep, deep trouble. None of the modern era's PTB knew how to fix it, and I daresay most of them didn't care to return Oakdale to its roots. The soap just got worse and worse. Jack Snyder's sexual abuse by Julia came across (to me) in a sniggering way, which I found offensive. It was like the audience was supposed to find some truly ugly events amusing (wink, wink), and they just weren't. The uglier the events on screen became, the less ATWT resembled...ATWT.

I think he showed promise at the beginning of his tenure, when he worked with Carolyn Culliton. Later, when there was nobody to pull in the reigns, he went wild. He downplayed the vets and the Hugheses far too much, and overplayed his favorites. God knows what his beef was with Eileen Fulton, who became like an irrelevant, rarely-seen under-fiver during his reign. I felt there was a mean-spiritedness to his writing, which lacked heart, warmth and family values which were the core of ATWT.

UGH! Hogan Sheffer really s**t all over the show and its legacy, and did tremendous damage. By comparison, Stern and Black, and even the dreaded Jean Passanante did less harm. Now that we can look back, hindsight tells us that Stern and Black, while bad, could have been worse. They could have been Sheffer or JER or Carlivati bad.

I wouldn't be surprised. Network suits have a habit of championing creative personnel from primetime TV, as if (just by the mere fact that they have worked on primetime television), their work should be good. Jessica Klein, Lynn Latham, Stern & Black, Charles Pratt, Nina Laemmle, Anne Howard Bailey, and a host of other scribes who failed on the soaps, prove otherwise.

I've always heard they were gawd-awful at Falcon Crest, and crippled that show instantly when they took over the head writing reigns. I don't think Black and Stern were were as bad/damaging as JER, Charles Pratt, Thom Racina, Leah Laiman, and some other, notoriously-awful writers, but I have the feeling that their material would not be stellar under the best of circumstances.

This famous scene (starting at 42:04) aired on Another World in 1974, and was particularly engrossing because viewers had waited for six YEARS for Alice to unleash her fury on Rachel. (Actually, Irene Dailey's Aunt Liz was far too meek here. Audra Lindley's version of Liz Matthews from the 1960s would have whupped Rachel's a$$, and torn her hair out, from the moment that bitch marched in the room.)

It is an acknowledged landmark of daytime TV, but I did want to mention Ellen Holly's and Lillian Heyman's stellar work on One Life to Live, when Clara was desperate to pass for white. Her confrontation scenes with her mother were particularly outstanding. Years later, Al Freeman, Jr., was Al Freeman Jr., and always shone in his scenes. Paul Raunch really f***ed up, yet again, when he fired these beloved vets.

I agree about when the show's believability went completely out the window. For me personally, once a character is inundated with a plethora of sci-fi/fantasy/camp material, their viability as credible characters (who can be used in believable storylines) is also decimated. They can then continue to be featured in fantastical, outlandish plots, but I'll never see them as identifiable, human people with feelings worth caring about again. Fembots have never inspired my heartfelt sympathy. Right. JER turned DAYS into a cartoon, a joke IMHO. The show has never recovered. There are genres of television programs geared towards that sort of material, and it's fine if a portion of the audience enjoys it, but soap operas and outlandish, wacky cartoons simply don't mesh. As I've noted previously, The Great Gazoo does not belong floating around Maggie Smith's head on Downton Abbey, LOL. OMG, what a stinker story that was. DAYS had already fallen so far from the well-written soap it had been just two years before, when Pat Falken Smith was guiding it in 1982. I always considered Reva to have "stans" as opposed to fans. Manny and the San Cristocrap gang too. 🤢 Yes, she played Maggie Carpenter in the mid 1990s.

The epitome of this is Reva Shayne on The Guiding Light, who was heinously overhyped, overrated and overused, and saddled with one idiotic plot after another on The Guiding Light. On DAYS, the endless kidnappings, presumed deaths, back-from-the dead stories and other moronic material (Possessed!) dumped on Marlena Evan crippled that character's believability and viability decades ago. One Life to Live saddled poor Jacquie Courtney with a "British accent" when she played evil twin Maggie Ashley on that show. I adore La Courtney, but that wretched accent, which she could not pull off, God bless her, was wretched.

DAYS has never been better!

Okay, thanks. This was the latest that I've seen. The walls aren't even angled anymore? Is the front door still in the center of the archway, like in the photo I uploaded?

👏😘👍 Yes. Mary Matthews and Ada Downs existed side by side without issue on AW, as did Alice Matthews, Pat Randolph and Lenore Curtin on the same show. Lorie, Leslie, and Chris Brooks all managed to shine and be showcased during their shared time together on Y&R. Viki Riley, Carla Gray, Pat Kendall and Karen Wolek all had their moments in the spotlight during a shared era on OLTL. There's no competition among characters co-existing on the canvas at the same time, except in the minds over overheated fanbases. To me, the MORE popular actresses on a soap at the same time, the better for the show. DAYS was on fire when Susan Flannery, Denise Alexander and Susan Seaforth graced the show together.

Exactly, and now Maggie's even propping Marlena up by appearing in scenes with her. God bless our Maggie!😘 It's funnier than the proclamations that viewers who enjoy the Hortons are "just jealous of Marlena."🤣 Next we will hear that the Emmy-award-winning actress can't act!😉

Exactly. A flight of fancy, more than likely. 🙄 👏 "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."🙃

Oh wow, I hadn't seen such a recent shot of the Horton living room. The front door has moved several feet to the left from its original and traditional position. The dimensions of the room look smaller too. I prefer the "real" layout.

William J. Bell knew what's what. That's why he is an acknowledged master of the genre. Back then, we just didn't get sidetracked by the rudimentary, sparse sets. The writing on soaps by Phillips, Nixon, Bell, etc., was too involving. Nowadays, we notice the cheap sets, and all the other technical flaws, because the writing isn't enough to keep our attention. We are bored, s we look around, LOL. This, 100% this. I've been expressing the same sentiments for decades now. The Mickey/Laura/Bill triangle on DAYS, with the secret of Mike's paternity at its core, was slooooow moving and based on family dynamics, repressed emotions and unrequited love. It lasted a DECADE, but was never boring, and kept viewers mesmerized. No clones, vampires, devils or extraterrestrials in sight! It was soap opera heaven! I wish everyone could have witnessed the engrossing material that Denise Alexander got to play as Susan Hunter Martin. Daytime TV magazine once reported that a husband wrote into DAYS, asking producers to give Susan some relief from her suffering. He wrote, "My wife is pregnant and needs her rest, but she can't sleep because she's so stressed about Susan!" Okay, I agree that such a reaction from a viewer is over the top, but when soaps dealt with real emotions and human, adult drama, fans were FIERCELY involved. With the dreck being produced today? Not so much.🤨 While I initially applauded the idea of hour-long soaps, people like Bell, Falken Smith, Nixon, Marland and Lemay were still writing, so the quality held up for a while. The budgets were high back then too. DAYS would sometimes have more than 15 characters on an episode. As the years went on, however, we lost writers and producers with the talent and understanding to run soaps well. Ratings plummeted, budgets were slashed. Keeping soaps at 60 minutes per day became increasing untenable. I think it would have been wise to cut all of them back to 30 minutes, years ago. A lot of dead wood could be pruned from the casts if they did that today. Core characters could be focused on, and all the useless filler material could be eliminated. I know. Since I started noticing how absurd and nonsensical television sets were, I see the impossibilities everything. Rhoda's loft was supposedly "upstairs" from Mary Richards' apartment. Interior scenes showed a staircase outside of Mary's front door, leading UP to Rhoda's place. Yet, outdoor footage of the building clearly revealed there WAS NO upstairs. Mary's apartment was literally on the top floor. Rhoda's garret was to the right of Mary's place, and even slightly lower. I don't know how TPTB never notice these things.

Right. Compelling human drama is far more mesmerizing than clones, extraterrestrials, brain implants, mad scientists freezing the world, devil possession, time travel, etc., particularly when there's no budget to handle the outlandish plots. Viewers who enjoy that sort of entertainment have theatrical films and cable TV series with king-sized budgets to enjoy. Watching soap heroines leaping into paintings and travelling through time, or becoming possessed by the devil and going on a killing spree just don't cut it by comparison. Particularly on soap budgets of $1.49, filmed on sets that look held together by Scotch tape and bubble gum, LOL.

I've never liked the over-the-top sci-fi/fantasy/camp nonsense on soaps, primarily because it's so contradictory to the exploration of the human condition, which is the essence of the genre. What makes the fantasy elements so much worse, however, is that the budget to produce such stories just isn't there, so all these dumb plots end up looking embarrassing. Soaps need to go back to their roots.