chrisml

I never saw the point of the Marvel stuff. As a lapsed GL viewer, I was not going to tune back into the show because of this. It felt like a distraction. If you're going to do something outside of the box, it should lure people back into the show. What former/current GL viewers are going to be swayed by a Marvel connection? It's a misreading of what soap viewers actually want. We don't want gimmicks that mean nothing. The producers after Calhoun never understood that.

Oh what a shame. He was such a talented man. So good in the role. F*ck cancer as the saying goes.

I had forgotten about the criticism about GL turning into an advertisement for mormonism @DRW50. I wasn't paying enough attention to GL to know what that was all about. I know some viewers and a few soap journalists were complaining about it. I think this is part of the problem with Wheeler's GL. It had no real identity. It was something different depending on the week or month. And it became something that lapsed viewers were not going to tune into. And David Kreizman (sp?) was too obsessed with Jonathan and still is according to recent interviews. @Deevee There's the gorilla on Another World and the stomped on cigar from Santa Barbara. Two of the worst. The cigar was probably the worst because it was so contemptuous. Both of these NBC approved.

Luke ended up alone and unhappy. Van Hansis recently said that Jean Passanante (sp?) apologized for giving Luke such an ending. Someone needs to ask Liz Keifer if Ellen Wheeler was constantly crying. She'd give an honest answer. I'm not sure Alan Locher would ask her though. It's not the crying part I care about though. It's the shoving Jonathan down viewers' throat part that turned me off but YMMV. I also remember that Goutman was still getting blowback from the way he ended AW with the damn gorilla. Critics were worried he'd end ATWT the same way. I didn't understand the gorilla reference (still don't).

Some of the soap press gleefully reported that Marian was created to look like JFP. Michael Logan took delight in this fact. This was right after he had publicly called for JFP to be fired from GL--something Logan developed amnesia about when he interviewed her yrs. later and he told her sexism was the reason people responded to her so negatively. @SoaploversI remember Christopher Goutman getting a lot of criticism in the soap press for how he handled ATWT in its last two years. He was seen as an a-hole who destroyed ATWT. His firing of Martha Byrne (which people probably wouldn't mind now considering what has happened) was written about extensively. Even when people disliked GL and the Peapack stuff, Wheeler was seen as the desperate EP trying to save her dying show. I think she got a lot more grace because people in the soap press knew her acting work and soap journalists did not like how Goutman ended AW.

This right here is why I never came back as a regular viewer because there just seemed to be too much sleaze and mean-spiritedness that marked GL. I'd say it went back even before Rauch. As much as I was riveted by the Marian Crane drama, when we covered it recently, the mean-spirited nature of it never struck me at the time because Frank Beaty was so fantastic. Beyond that, they went out of their way to make sure that everyone knew that Marian Crane was meant to resemble JFP as well. Now that we have McTavish's memoir, we can see where a lot of that vicious behavior came from. re: Ellen Wheeler She was a hired gun. Her GL reeked of desperation. Do you blame the one who put the victim out of its misery or the people who ordered the hit?

Problem is she didn't always submit Emmy bait storylines. She (or usually her husband) would often submit reels where she would play the romantic heroine. If you've seen any of her t.v. movies, that's the quality of what she would often submit. It was nothing stuff. It was only towards the end of her Emmy run where she submitted more substantial work. I remember when she submitted scenes with Mona's death (Erica's mother) that a mainstream journalist commented that she laughed at her scenes. As much as people might have detested the clone storyline (and I am agnostic as I didn't watch much), Zimmer submitted work that was emotional and meant something. It was not just nonsense fluff. That's what annoys me about Lucci. Lucci made the Daytime Emmys, but she simply did not have the material most years.

All of this talk about Ellen Wheeler makes me a bit sad. She was such a good actress. When she came back to AW as Marley, she wiped Jensen Buchanan off the screen. Don't know what happened to her. I get the desperation and the "let's throw everyone at the wall and see what sticks" mentality at that point in GL's status but her decisions never made me want to return as a viewer. Quite the opposite. As someone who never worshipped at the altar of Pelphrey or Cole, the last few years were intolerable to me when I would see what little I did. I will say Nicole Forrester and Beth Chamberlain were robbed of Emmys. I judged those categories for goldderby when they were still doing that, and they were far and away the best. I'm glad Jeanne Cooper won a competitive Emmy before she died (although I thought her reel was mediocre). I thought Julie Pinson was actively awful in her submission, but that's the way it goes in the supporting actress category often.

To be clear, I was not judging Michael Malone for writing a story in the nineties. The story is still relevant today even more so in the current climate. The "unsurprising" part was more about the Joey bit since we have discussed that before. I give OLTL credit for the story because they did more than most other soaps did their entire run with Billy's story and the AIDS quilt. Compare that to AW's handling of the HIV story which was pathetic. re: Gottlieb. I think Gottlieb coming in from movies and saying she was going to revolutionize daytime probably annoyed Slezak and others. That quote showed up in a lot of articles about her and I know Slezak repeated it in her Academy interview where she listed Gottlieb as her least favorite producer. I think you're onto the workplace dynamics of it @Paul Raven

I thought this discussion about the Billy is gay/homophobia storyline in the Book "To be Continued...Soap Operas Around The World" by Robert Allen would be interesting. The comments are enlightening if not unsurprising.

The press (from what I remember) criticised the Jane story/the telenovela storytelling. I see the critics' point as Jane should have been woven into other stories and there should have been more consequences for other characters. Erika Slezak just seemed to have an issue with Gottlieb from the beginning. A real shame because I think Gottlieb's positives far outweigh her mistakes.

re: Zimmer, Lucci and the Emmys. Lucci not winning at the Emmys did make the Daytime Emmys a media event. It's just maddening when you watch what she submitted and you know the actresses who were left off. A lot of her scenes/episodes are downright laughable. And to pretend that her material/acting is in the same league as Zimmer, Hubbard, Walker, Hall, Spencer, Strasser, etc. is insulting. Zimmer and the pay cut: These are the same people (CBS and P&G) who had a meltdown when McKinsey left even though she fulfilled her contract. The same people who fired Zaslow. Zimmer had every right to react the way she did, and they used the media to smear her. Yes, the media did partly blame Zimmer for casting changes and problems with the shows.

Exactly. So many teens/young adults love the older characters/the mom characters. That's why killing off Maureen was such a disaster. I don't understand why people who worked in the soap industry for decades didn't know this or didn't care. As you point out, soaps stopped becoming a communal event so soaps had to adjust with the times but they didn't. They focused on he 18/49 demo and that was the wrong way to go. Soap viewers want consistency and GL certainly didn't provide that in its last 20 yrs. I agree that Zimmer had every right to refuse the pay cut. They wanted to use Zimmer as a scapegoat and as an example. It also shows Zimmer was not as well liked behind the scenes if some her cast mates believed the stories. Wheeler's GL felt desperate even before the handheld cameras, and the hairy hands. As a viewer, that's not going to lure me back to a show. It's going to make sure I don't come back.

In retrospect, it would be perfectly obvious that Zimmer would win her first Emmy based on her competition. It's again annoying to see that Lucci took up so many slots for Best Actress while other worthy nominees were overlooked and/or never nominated. As for her second Emmy win, she was also not facing much competition. She again had Lucci with ridiculous material. Marcy Walker submitting weak material (from what I remember reading, it was Eden arguing with cruz about the status of their relationship). Frances Reid submitting nothing material. Her only competition would have been Elizabeth Hubbard from ATWT. As for her book and Ellen Wheeler, it's interesting she doesn't lay as much blame on Conboy who did a lot of damage to the show financially and behind the scenes. She also blames Ellen Wheeler for casting decisions that Conboy made. And if P&G had decided to get out of the soap business, it didn't matter who was producing. I'm not an Ellen Wheeler apologist. I think she's a fantastic actress, but a terrible EP. Zimmer's anger is misplaced and she knows it. It's easier for her to be madder at the hired gun than the corporation. If she really cared about GL as a whole, she would know that one of the horrific things that soured people on the show was the disgusting way Michael Zaslow was treated by her fave EP Paul Rauch and MADD. My mother was not even watching the show then and she's still livid about how he was treated. She brought up the wizened old man remark and how it soured her on the show especially as she works as a nurse. Teens and twentysomethings do not watch soaps just for people their own ages. I never did. Advertisers know this. Execs know this. Yet they still chase the teen/young adult dollar with young characters. When they used to publish the Q ratings of soap actors, JEanne Cooper's Kay was the top actress for teen and young adult viewers. They loved her, but that didn't fit into what advertisers wanted so Q ratings were quickly phased out because the reality didn't match what the execs wanted.

To be fair to Alan Locher, he does get elicit a lot of good GL history and information on his interviews. People on this thread (including myself) are constantly referring back to interviews he conducted. He has done so much valuable work for GL fans (as well as other soaps). The quality of the interviews varies depending on if Locher knows the shows and the people being interviewed. It also depends on the combination of the people. Sometimes, one person can just be super annoying during an interview (Fiona Hutchison's tech problems during the wonderful Zaslow tribute; Rachel Miner having to interrupt constantly during the Ellen Parker episode). Kim Zimmer and Liz Keifer are reliable guests on the Locher Room. If they're on, it's usually a really good show. The Demorest/Curlee one has my favorite reaction to a Locher question, "Were you there when they killed Maureen?" I won't say he's the best interviewer, but we've had so much good information from these interviews that I'm thankful for the shows because so much of soap history is lost. The ""Were you there when they killed Maureen?" moment is 54:30 into this video:

Ah, that explains why Clint Ritchie had positive things to say about Pamela K. Long. I remember the show being quite repellent, sexist and racist from what little I saw of JFP's tenure. Ritchie said Long tried to fix things but she was never allowed to do anything. I could see Long working on OLTL, but again, she would need writers to work on the humor. I just don't see her working under a producer like JFP. Oddly enough, she didn't seem to mind working with Paul Rauch on SB even though the results were not good. GL fans did get to see a murderous Krista Tesreau so I suppose that might be of interest to some people.

I get the Lemay part. I thought Michael Malone's first half of his initial tenure on OLTL was brilliant. When he goes to AW, it's as if every bad habit follows him. I don't think Pamela Long understood Santa Barbara or what made it so special. She ruined everything that made it so unique. She was paired with Paul Rauch who was a disaster so it was just a mess. Rauch followed Conboy on SB and Conboy followed Rauch on GL.

The way actors submitted their episodes (and the numbers of episodes) changed year to year. Sometimes, they had to be edited. Sometimes not. I think at one point they had to submit three episodes and then it changed to two. I don't know what it's like now. I don't know about Pamela Long's tenure on GL to have an opinion one way or the other. I saw some of her work and I liked some, didn't see a lot (did not see her first stint), and didn't like other stuff. I know more about her tenure on SB which I saw all of and it was atrocious. I don't think I saw any of her work on OLTL. My major problem with her is a decided lack of humor and witty dialogue, but maybe I just haven't seen the right stuff. I liked the Calhoun produced GL right after Zimmer left. That's my favorite time of GL. I think it was firing on all cylinders.

The Oprah thing: Kim Zimmer had every right to be annoyed. I don't know the best way to handle it. I tend to be very confrontational so I probably would have just confronted her in the break and said, "The rest of of us can leave if you just want an all ABC show." If the rumors about Mr. Malloy are correct, are we to assume Zimmer undressed because she felt safe with him? Likewise Geary felt he could disrobe for that reason? I don't think it makes a difference. I think it's highly unprofessional and gross.

The Larkin Malloy anecdote Kim Zimmer tells leaves me with a thought: If a man decided to take off his underwear in a love scene, can you imagine the outrage? It's not about Malloy doing or not doing something inappropriate. It's that you don't just take off your clothes during a love scene.

I always try to see both sides so I understand that it must be tough to be the sex symbol, to be known for your beauty and body and then to see that slipping away. I can see how that would play with someone's psyche. It doesn't excuse mistreating costars or bad behavior but I understand because aging sucks even when you're not the red dress woman. After 25, one wrong turn in bed and you could be in pain for a month. Zimmer was not kind to Watros, Colman, or Forrester. Frankly, she wasn't kind to Beth Ehlers as it was easy to figure out who she meant even for me who didn't watch the show consistently. Ehlers has children and Zimmer was protective of her own children and angry when the ATWT articles came out. Why repeat the Ehlers story when it didn't involve her? Did she think it wouldn't matter? Or did she just not care like the Dusay anecdote @Mitch64wrote about?

She probably did rub people the wrong way and I'm assuming some of it is because she's a woman since they excused Rauch's behavior for years. Clint Ritchie's behavior must have been appalling for Erika Slezak to even share that story because she was not one to badmouth her castmates. I can only imagine it was much worse than she relates in that anecdote. It's also sad that no other producer would hold him responsible for his drinking including Rauch who was also an alcoholic.

I like Kassie DePaiva, but a lot was lost when Mia Korf left the role of Blair. Mia Korf was fantastic, and that period of OLTL was such great television. Speaking of that era, it's so interesting to me that Erika Slezak does not think Linda Gottlieb was good for OLTL. This anecdote about Clint Ritchie speaks to how good she was for the show. It's from Jeff Giles's book.

Thank you @P.J.for all the videos. I appreciate them. I will bookmark them as a treat for later tonight. I'm not sure when Jordan Clarke's problems were, but Billy is quite frantic in most of what I've seen him in. The writers don't seem to know what to do with Billy and H.B. if it doesn't revolve around Reva and Kyle. Sally is the only who doesn't cater to Reva, so it's nice to see someone who doesn't fall down at Reva's feet. Zimmer needs a good nemesis; it doesn't work when everyone is in love with Reva.

The fact that Zimmer would get upset that Josh would get together with Cassie is just ridiculous. I don't intend this to be mean, but Kim Zimmer was not Demi Moore sixty even in her fifties, so to be writing her like she's still the hottest thing in town would be delusional a la Susan Lucci the young showgirl in town. re: Louise Sorel. Not to prolong this as it's not a SB thread, but Jill Larson briefly mentions the Sorel/Rauch relationship in the OLTL history book. Only time Sorel is mentioned. Kim Zimmer was not interviewed for the book so does not share any backstage gossip and only Gina Tognoni mentions her in passing. 1986: I wish I came across a scene with Billy and Vanessa. All I've had from Billy is pacing back and forth during scenes. While he paces, he mutters, "Kyle, you're my brother. Kyle, we're a team. We made it through last year." I suppose I should know what this is about, but I'm not sure it matters since Kyle is leaving. Billy has not had a scene with Vanessa in 5 weeks of 1986 material I've watched. Miss Sally is around as well. Miss Sally I like. She's delightful. I'm assuming she leaves soon which will annoy me as I like her interplay with H.B. when he's not reminiscing about loving Reva since she was a child.