j swift

I'm not sure if you intended to discuss temporary or permanent recasts but I thought that I would tackle recastings amoung the Capwell Clan of Santa Barbara

CC - Jed Allen balanced the gravitas and the sexiness of CC.  By contrast, Paul Burke seemed like mutton dress as lamb when he was going after Gina and Peter Mark Richman looked like a lecherous old man with Santana.  Charles Bateman played CC's stern side well, (especially in the scenes when Mason outed Channing), but he lacked the sex appeal to force Sofia to choose between him and Lionel.

Kelly - I prefer Carrington Garland, even over the original Robin Wright, mostly because she played the dynamic between Kelly and Eden.  Two girls growing up in a single-father household would have tons of issues with competition and sexuality.  Carrington played that motivation more than the others in the role

Ted - he was such an underdeveloped character that the switch from Todd McKee to Michael Brainard just seemed like a de-SORASing of Ted

Gina - Robin Mattson brought a sensitivity to her relationship with Brandon that was not there when Linda Gibboney played the role.  I think if Gibboney had persisted with her manic/panic style of acting than Santana would have been a much more reliable alternative to raise Brandon and Gina probably wouldn't have lasted until the end.

The worst recasts: Scott Jenkins as Warren brought a skeeziness to the character when he tried to seduce everyone he met.  He was such a miscast that they even threw away the set used as Warren's bedroom and never re-used it.  John Novak as Keith Timmons was too young and he only played the angry Keith, not the clever/funny Keith.  And Tea Leoni, interesting actress, unfortunately, brought in to wrap up the Lisa Dinapoli storyline and then disappear.

1 minute ago, amybrickwallace said:

I thought they did rebuild the Orient Express later on, but I could be wrong.

You are correct because Eden's first wedding happened before Mary's death, so they must have rebuilt and then abandoned it once Johnny's opened.

21 minutes ago, chrisml said:

The only thing I'm interested in is seeing that full interview since the only thing I could find is that excerpt (you pasted) on different sites.

It's all in good fun and I promise that I am not pasting any fake JFP news anywhere on the internet - if you see any I am certain it is one of the Russian troll farms, I'm told they're huge Steve Burton/Chuck Pratt fans.

I think I am just triggered by the repetition of gossip without considering the sources.  Ex-employees are not reliable to relate their experiences without bias. 

4 minutes ago, amybrickwallace said:

it was poor taste that the Capwells put that same neon C back on after Mary met her end. They were rich - couldn't they have replaced the C???

Eden's Orient Express burned down during her first wedding to Cruz and they never rebuilt it.  Maybe Mary was haunting the hallways?  It took SB a few trys to find a central meeting place for the characters.  The Beach Bar was too youthful and too seasonal.  La Mesa and The State Street bar were very small sets and filled with riff-raff like Gina's drug pusher.  I am always amused that every bar/cafe had to have a pay phone for characters to call each other.  

I will give the scab writers credit for revisiting Mark's death later with Mason when they found the remains of Pamela's lover and Scott's father.  That story was poorly finished but an interesting callback all the same. I appreciated that throughline that CC supported the nunnery because they had provided childcare to the Capwell children; presumedly when Rosa was out sewing her wild oats.  

37 minutes ago, chrisml said:

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, chrisml said:

I'm not even sure Phelps and Zimmer worked together on GL, 

UPI February 1995

Kim Zimmer, one of daytime's most popular stars for her role as the conniving Reva Shayne Lewis on 'Guiding Light,' will return to the show after an absence of more than four years.  Although no details about her 'comeback' have been revealed, executive producer Jill Farren Phelps did say Reva's 'presence' will finally allow her old flame, Josh Lewis (played by Robert Newman), to make peace with her loss and give him courage to move on with his life. 

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1995/02/07/People/8378792133200/

Zimmer's interview with Nelson Branco TV Guide Canada:

TVG: Well, it felt like forever. Do you think had Jill Farren Phelps welcomed you back sooner that Reva's journey would have turned out differently?

KZ: No because some wonderful storytelling happened while I was gone during those five years. I read both sides of the fence, and I know some fans thought Reva dominated far too much story when I was there the first time. When I left, GL became more of an ensemble cast and I think there is some truth to that.

26 minutes ago, chrisml said:

Wasn't KC's memorial roundly criticised?

No, in fact, it was on Y&R's Emmy submission that year when they won.

26 minutes ago, chrisml said:

 

 

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12 minutes ago, chrisml said:

Wasn't she and her co-ep or co-hw advocating for a false rape claim story that had to be rewritten?

You may be thinking of Jack's doppelganger who slept with Phyllis without her consent.  However, that was before JFP was hired at Y&R and her regime actually dealt with the aftermath of that storyline.  Also, she is a producer and not a writer, Pratt was writing for Y&R at the time.

26 minutes ago, chrisml said:

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, chrisml said:

I used to give her credit for the Robert/Eden/Cruz storyline until interviews showed it was forced on her so I can't even give her credit for that.

Again, I don't see any interviews to support this theory.  Robert Barr, as played by Roscoe Born was actually hired for a short period, left for pilot season, and then returned.  As noted in SOD this gave writers the opportunity to delve into Robert's background and thus the popular Quinn story was created.  It is also notable for being the only time that Kelly and Eden's relationship was discussed in the plot.  Marcy Walker got her Emmy during JFP's production.  JFP was also instrumental in the use of popular music on soaps.

26 minutes ago, chrisml said:

 

 

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18 minutes ago, chrisml said:

I don't think it negates her misogynistic ways or her clear male bias--thing that happened on every show she's been on.

Kim Zimmer had nothing but praise for JFP and her allowing Reva to age in her memoir.  Zimmer also won an Emmy under JFP.  So, this seems to just be conjecture without any fact.  She is in annual attendance at women in media events and has mentored female directors at CBS.

1 hour ago, Franko said:

Obviously none of us were there, but in my opinion, some of those quotes do feel a bit like boilerplate. I could be wrong and he could have been 100 percent genuine, but, well ...

In the words of my favorite drag queen Monique Heart, "facts are facts."  Those are Goutman's quotes, in a variety of sources, discounting the arguments about disrespecting veteran actors and his loathing of ATWT.  If we don't believe what is printed in the New York Times than I don't know who to quote next. 

2 hours ago, amybrickwallace said:

 

That's a plot point that should never have worked...but it did. The acting was incredible. Harley Jane moved on to film and primetime success before giving up show biz to become a novelist. I have never read any of her books; I probably should.

I recently re-watched the falling C episode and it doesn't hold up.  Contrary to my memory, they never actually showed the C fall on her.  It blows in the wind, and they stay on the roof so long that something was bound to happen.  The twist is that it looked like Mason was going to be the one in danger based on the promo.

Mary was the Job of Santa Barbara.  Not only was she from modest means, but her sister was raped, her father died in an earthquake, and both of her brothers were killed in the same year.  She was a nun who was raped, held hostage, accused of tampering with CC's medication, and forced into marriage with her impotent ex-husband.  The man who she truly loved was an alcoholic and he was the only poor Capwell in town.  I think the falling "C" was a fitting ending to such a sad life.

2 hours ago, chrisml said:

 

 

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1 hour ago, chrisml said:

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, chrisml said:

Very true, but I always had the sense that JFP took a weird delight in punishing female characters and the actresses.

I don't wish to negate everyone but I also failed to substantiate this argument.

She produced Katherine Chancellor's memorial on Y&R.  She produced Lillian's breast cancer on Guiding Light and was praised by Tina Slone in her memoir.  Kim Zimmer honored JFP's efficiency in producing in her memoir.  She saved the jobs of not just Michael Zaslow, but also Jerry Ver Dorn who had heart surgery during a big story on GL.  And she was nominated for 14 Emmys and each year that she was nominated for best show a veteran female from her show was also nominated in an acting category.  

1 hour ago, amybrickwallace said:

 

 

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38 minutes ago, amybrickwallace said:

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, amybrickwallace said:

I seem to remember Liz Hubbard actually enjoyed working with Goutman, and maybe Colleen Zenk. That's about it for the "old guard".

Don Hastings credited Goutman on his achievements in the final episodes.  Kathryn Hays said in EW, "We had been given six months warning, and our executive producer Chris Goutman absolutely insisted that we veterans drive story all the way to the end."  Also, by making "Nancy Hughes" the author of Oakdale Confidential, he assured Helen Wagner a cut of the licensing fee, thus providing additional income sources for the veteran actor; in my book that's good producing.

And don't we tend to believe that Eileen Fulton would only have been satisfied if the finale was a singing dancing extravaganza in Lisa's honor?  And is Martha Byrne a hero for not taking the same paycut as her veteran peers, tanking the ratings by leaving in the final year, and then leaking the story to Page Six thus revealing the salary of her remaining co-stars?

My point being, taste is subjective and I keep reading about executive producers who are blamed for storylines that fans found distasteful rather than focusing on those who were actually incompetent.  

1 minute ago, Soapsuds said:

It's the interview where he said ATWT was an old soap and had run it course......he didn't seem to give a damn and his comments spoke volumes. 

Once again I couldn't find that quote, but I did find him saying, "We're trying to bring a 54-year-old show to a satisfactory and emotional wrap-up and to call it difficult would be the understatement of the century," says Goutman. "The loss of this show is tremendous — not just to those of us who make it and for the fans who love it, but for the entire daytime drama industry."  Perhaps you've misremembered it over time.

1 hour ago, Soapsuds said:

 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Soapsuds said:

Chris Goutman and John Valente. Chris underneath it all loathed ATWT as a soap and ran it to the ground. Even after its cancellation he continued to trash the legendary soap. JV fired the vets and wanted to make ATWT hip I suppose. 

When you say Mr Goutman hated the show would you be referring to the 2008 interview with SOD about Luke when he said "I'm proud of the story. it is a risky story; it will always be risky in our society. But we will continue to tell it, because it's an important story, mulitgenerationally and within the context of the community of Oakdale"? 

https://boards.soapoperanetwork.com/topic/27926-sod-atwt-interview-w-barbara-bloom-chris-goutman/

Or was it in 2010 with Michael Logan in TV Guide before the cancellation when he said, "Right to the end we will put out the message that life goes on. Long after ATWT is off the air, we want our characters to still be living their lives in the imaginations of the viewers'?

https://www.tvguide.com/news/exclusive-world-turns-1021624/

Or maybe you mean the 2010 New York Times article when he said after the cancellation of ATWT, "New York actors found in soaps a combination of training, money and camaraderie that isn’t likely to be replaced"?

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/arts/television/07soap.html 

Because after a google search I can't find one mention in print to support your hypothesis

Today I learned: Mac got it on with Elizabeth Love?  What a cad!

ANOTHER WORLD: Week of February 28 - March 4, 1983 (a few weeks into the introduction of the Loves, right after Steve's death, and Rachel is blind)

Felicia warned Cass she won’t tolerate him seeing other women; but he secretly bedded Cecile.  Mac convinced Sandy to have a blood test.  Using an accent, Mac got close to Rachel by posing as hospital administrator John Caldwell.  Larry was pleased that RJ wants to follow in Bob’s footsteps and be a cop.  Donna was interested to learn that Mac once loved her mother.  Liz was smitten by Mac’s British novelist pal, Reggie Fearing.  Rachel had therapy sessions with Linda Taggert.

A couple of thoughts: (a)How did Mac find the time to be at the hospital every day and practice an accent? (b)How amazing would it have been if Peter Love was the red herring in finding out that Sandy was Mac's son? (c) Subsequent writers always forgot that Mac didn't move to Bay City until right before he met Rachel.

I think it is important to keep in mind that producers don't write shows.  They may approve story proposals, but even that job has many cooks in the kitchen.  So, critiques based on story or plot conclusions are not the pervue of the executive producer.  There are old wives tales about producers who like adventure stories or business stories, but those were always suspect to me because their job is not acquired by pitching stories to networks.

On the other hand, an interesting story can be ruined by poor production.  My classic example is "Nighttime-Hope" on DAYS.  If you pitched a story about an overwhelmed single parent turning to drugs to help them cope and then becoming addicted, I would be excited.  If you indicated that Hope was on drugs by changing her hairstyle and using jazzy music than the production has fucked up the vision of the writer.   Alternatively, the production values of Eterna saved that very silly story.

Also, I think it important to remember that half of what we know about producers is based on people's exit interviews.  Very few people leave a job and have glorifying things to say about their supervisor and the same is true for soaps and soap press.  The Dobsons are remembered as victims of an NBC lockout.  However, when they sued New World and won millions, in the trial they were forced to testify that they had similar dysfunctional relationships at other shows because they could not effectively work with any of the three network daytime executives.  Most "inside" information fans get is when people are fired and give interviews (or read on some message board or instagram post), but we should remember the context before we commit it to soap opera canon. 

Looking back, SB is not a show that was remembered for its great twists which makes me wonder about the quality of the writing?  It seems well established that the Dobson's quiffed the first mystery - Who shot Channing? - by stringing it out too long with too many red herrings and recastings.  By the time Cruz solved the mystery one year after the start of the show, Joe had been dead for three months, and 18-year-old Channing Jr turned out to be a switched baby, father of a newborn, gay. thief, star student-athlete, who was blackmailing his neighbors. 

However, SB was always a show that seemed to clue in the audience rather than traffic in surprises.  For example, viewers knew that Sophia was Dominic, Brick was Channing, and Brandon was Santana's son within the first weeks of the show.  Even Pamela's return was less dramatic because she interacted with a few characters before she appeared in the courtroom for Elena's trial.  I guess Madeline killing her husband was a bit of a surprise, but most murders were solved by the time they went to court.  For every Robert Barr in a cage, we mostly got stories where main characters were falsely accused and their innocence was never in doubt.  I'm not saying that twists indicate good writing, but it is difficult to remember any SB twist as particularly eventful.  

Good cliffhangers (the earthquake, Eden's fall, Elena's death, Dylan falling out of the window) but not really great twists.

On 4/7/2019 at 3:02 PM, chrisml said:

 

 

 

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On 4/7/2019 at 3:02 PM, chrisml said:

The build-up to the "who shot Jake?" storyline was great, but the story never went anywhere. They should have just killed off Jake. I know rapists as romantic heroes was big in the 90's (and before that) but I hated it. Evans was like the proverbial bull in a china shop where Timmins had more subtlety and I felt for her.

I think the recast works mostly in the post-murder scenario.  Jake forced Paulina to marry him in order to avoid prosecution (which as I recall is one of the few times in soap history where nobody was ever punished for her crime).  Cali played the dynamic as Paulina was a victim to Jake's threats, however, at the same time, the writers were trying to resuscitate Jake as a romantic lead after he raped Marley.   Judy's performance was much more like two con artists trying to one-up each other.  I don't like any of the follow-up of Judy as Paulina, (including that they lost the thread that she had been raised in South America),  however, I understand the need to play the character as more self-assured. 

I think it falls apart quickly with the introduction of Ian Rain because they try to play Paulina as a seductress again when she had already been played a bit ruffer.  I don't think the Amanda/Paulina relationship should have built upon competing for the same guys.  I would have preferred that their differences were based more in their upbringings with Paulina being more street smart and Amanda being more traditionally educated, and each learning the lesson of how to rely on each other's strengths.  It did not work as well that summer when they were both flopping around the Cory pool (or the Harrison mansion) trying to out coquette each other to compete for a guy's attention.  At those times it was difficult to differentiate Paulina from Vicky, and they should have been two distinct characters.

13 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

NBC had a press release about them in Aug 77

There were significant changes starting in 1981 with the Writer's Guild that standardized these types of roles in a writing team.  So, stuff before 1981 could mean anything.

I think it is such a weird idea because neither series seems to be in regular reruns on non-antenna-driven channels so, how will young people drop into the concept?  I doubt the average 20-year-old knows who Archie Bunker is, let alone recognize a recreation of Archie.  I know the set is at the Smithsonian, but I don't know any other modern reference to the sitcom.  I am intrigued, but I don't think that I am in the target demographic.  

I guess Norman Lear owns everything through his production company, but is CBS going to allow them to use archival footage, or will there be no illusion to the old series?

Also, I'm OK with a live audience but hasn't Rent taught us that the actual show doesn't need to be broadcast live?

On 4/3/2019 at 10:17 PM, pdm1974 said:

Alexis will have to become Alexis Colby at some point.

This is what I still don't get about the remake - are the characters destined to same fate simply because they share a name with a character from the original?

It was always amusing to me the lengths that soaps would go through to have non-white second wedding gowns

I recall when Blaine (AW) and Marlena (DAYS) wore light blue

poor (GH) Bobbie had to wear pink and mint green

and I recall Alice wore yellow to her second wedding to Steve(n)

two thoughts:

There is a lot of talk about how bad Snatch Game has been.  However, I think that what we remember are good individual performances, but someone has to be bad at it every season for there to be a show.  I was impressed this year with the makeup that certain queens used to look like their counterpart.  I am equally horrified at how few people remember Joanne Whirley.

I also think that Rupaul's random judgements are part of the parody that Drag Race is trying to be.  It seems like the fanbase gets invested in the competition and forgets that this show started as a camp version of Top Model and Project Runway.  It seems as if some viewers are missing a key part of the humor which is that they are commenting on the state of reality competition.  It is an entertainment show masquerading as a competition but somehow that gets lost in conspiracies about whom is sent home when.

3 hours ago, Mitch said:

As for the last days of GL..the writing improved slightly but come on, it wasnt that great.

I recall balling my eyes out during Lillian's speech about how she was finally free to be happy after Bradley's abuse and her guilt over Maureen, (which was a much-appreciated nod to history), and then again during Alan's death (no spoilers).  Those scenes prove that good writing and fine acting needs better production values because they were great except for the wind which disrupted the sound and the differences in lighting between scenes based on the time of day which cause an unnecessary distraction from the story.

I know the argument that Bethanny is a hypocrite with a double standard for herself and everyone else is not new.  However, Tinsley's talk with Lu really got me thinking about what an awful friend Bethanny can be. 

Tinsley was refreshingly honest in saying to Lu that she realized that her lack of sympathy towards Lu's rehab was based on her anger toward her father.  I appreciated that she wasn't apologizing, nor was she attacking, she was just saying that Lu triggered these emotions in her.  In fact, if we read between the lines, Tinsley is warning Lu that when she watches the Berkshire episodes in seven months Lu might not like Tinsley's reactions, so she is explaining it in advance. By contrast, let's consider Bethanny and Jules.  Bethanny was triggered by Jules eating disorder because she reminded her of her mother.  However, rather than saying that directly to Jules, she teased her, disrespected every word out of her, and was generally not nice to her.  Giving advice is actually perfect for Bethanny because she would rather talk at someone than with someone.

Also, she was condemning Dorinda just last season for saying that death was worse than divorce and now they are bonding over widowhood (despite the fact that a few weeks before Denis died Bethanny was shtooping the hottest cater-waiter in New York and some guy in Boston the week after he died).

On the BH front,  the timeline of LVP's kitchen is very suspicious.  I try to take the show at face value.  However, given that we know she stopped filming with the ladies after the wedding, this kitchen reno could be happening on any day of the year.  In other words, I do not believe she was demo-ing her kitchen on the same day as Kyle's shower for Camille because I don't believe that two film crews would be working on the same day if the entire cast was expected to be at one location at the shower.  After all, Erika couldn't make it to the shower, but it was clear that her rehearsal was filmed on a separate day.  I would bet that producers begged Lisa to come back and film solo scenes in her kitchen and in Vegas that could be inserted throughout the season, but didn't actually happen on the same day.  I would further guess that she is contracted to film a certain number of days and when she refused to film with the cast, they went back and filmed her individually; which would really piss off the other ladies who would probably love to only have to film in their kitchens rather than go to another upside down infer-red goat yoga class.  It is easy to insert scenes in BH because the weather never shifts.  Sometimes in Potomac, they'll show two supposedly contemporaneous scenes and it is snowing in one location and humid in the other.  But, I'll start looking for clues to see if we are really seeing things happen on the same day.

34 minutes ago, Dax7000 said:

I would accept Carrie Genzel if Robin Christopher did not return. She was perfectly fine as Skye, but Robin will always be my favorite.

I feel like Carrie Genzel benefits from being a clever twist in the Dr Jonathan Kinder story.  The team of Skye, Janet, and Erica were so fun to watch.  However, in retrospect, the reveal that Kinder's wife Toni was actually Skye was dependant upon Carrie not acting as Skye had acted in the past which is a writer's cheat to try to avoid these types of comparative conversations.

Then Skye fell back into her obsessive stalking of men with Edmund and she wasn't as interesting as when she was a part of Janet's coven. 

Brandon and Adriana could have been the Ted and Laken of the late 90s.

BTW, I just thought about Warren and BJ's age difference.  BJ was Cruz's daughter whom he had in high school.  So, she was at least eighteen years younger than Cruz, and Warren was the same age as Channing, who was Eden's older brother.  So, there are at least twenty years between them.  I know that I seem to be stuck on the ages of Santa Barbarans, but that one is gross considering that BJ's introduction was through a sexual abuse storyline.  That finale just got a lot less romantic for me. 

I appreciate Charlemagne's point, but I think the Breakfast Club, in general, undermines their credibility when they use homophobic language so casually; especially when discussing his innocence of sexual assault.   

I feel like they should have denounced the use of gay rumors to embarrass Kelvin based on his masculinity and denounced the implication that engaging in the rape of a man, (or a woman), is the same as sexual orientation.  Kelvin is obviously a horndog bastard, but to try to use gay sex to demean him maligns the culture because it equates his violence toward women with having sex with a man