DramatistDreamer

3 hours ago, Khan said:

What can I say?  Everybody loves a trainwreck!

Although, it can be viewed differently— that ratings were so poor last year that this year was a marked improvement. Still pales in comparison to 2020 ratings.

Never forget that at one time many of these shows were cash cows for the companies that produced them as well as the networks that broadcast them.
Something else that hasn’t really been mentioned but should be factored in is the fact that these shows were ostensibly created to sell product, so the intersection of commerce and entertainment was very strong, and unlike other shows of the period (variety shows etc), it seems like the people who produce these soaps never quite got past the mentality that nowadays the entertainment aspect should take a higher priority than the commercial aspect. 

1 hour ago, Khan said:

Which is a shame, because I think he would have been just as good with HBS as Margo as he was with Margaret Colin.

I don't know what it is, but I've always been more fond of the quirkier, more off-beat actors on soaps than I am of the ones who played heroes and ingenues.

It’s been years since I saw those scenes, I don’t know whether they are even still up on YouTube but from what I remember, it seemed as if Deas was halfway checked out by then. He likely knew he wasn’t going to reup his contract, maybe HBS wasn’t aware.

Someone posted an early 1980s episode of As The World Turns over the weekend and I posted my appreciation for the detail contained in a sequence involving a veteran actress on the show. The intricate camera work highlighting the actress’ facial expressions, the subtle music. It was so subtle that, if you didn’t know what to look for, it might pass unnoticed but for me, the timing of it all…it was art! Do the people making these shows today believe that they are genuinely making art? 

16 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Good topic @Mona Kane Croft. Lots of food for thought.

If people haven’t read the book When Women Invented Television I would highly recommend it, it’s worth a read but the sections on Irna Phillips would be particularly relevant to this discussion. From what I read, it appeared that Phillips felt that the executives, P&G, et al, never had much faith in her and didn’t trust her instincts. There is that story of Phillips wanting to do away with the organ music that led to ad breaks for televised soaps, insisting that it was only really necessary for radio broadcasts and if it continued on television, she feared that it would only become something that would be made light of and mocked. Obviously, TPTB didn’t agree with her and felt it was a signature of sorts, for a soap and left it in. Who was right, who was not? I don’t know if the answer is that simple but think of all of those sketch comedy shows that parody soaps, what’s the first cue that they use? Organ music?

I think though that there was always something of a hierarchy within entertainment with television somehow being at the bottom, that has changed with the era of prestige prime time television that began around the end of the 20th century. Meanwhile, in daytime, it feels as though people making the dramas were determined to either be in on the joke or make a mockery of themselves lest they be mocked by others. 
There are other elements that went into it as well, sexism, misogyny, chauvinism, arrogance, lack of vision, lack of foresight, too much of a willingness to go with the trend and toss out the fundamental tenets of good storytelling, seeking cheap thrills.

The other part of it was that once the genre developed an inferiority complex (I would agree that it was likely industry wide some time in the 1990s) the companies that produced these shows started chasing screenwriters who couldn’t find work in films to write for these daytime dramas, whether these writers knew anything about the shows they were writing for or not.

Of course, there is no rule against genre hopping —Paddy Chayefsky was a writer that many writers wanted to emulate (minus the horrible health issues) because he was successful writing scripts for television, theater and film. But many of these writers didn’t know or seem to care about the history of the genre they were entering into.

Good topic @Mona Kane Croft. Lots of food for thought.

If people haven’t read the book When Women Invented Television I would highly recommend it, it’s worth a read but the sections on Irna Phillips would be particularly relevant to this discussion. From what I read, it appeared that Phillips felt that the executives, P&G, et al, never had much faith in her and didn’t trust her instincts. There is that story of Phillips wanting to do away with the organ music that led to ad breaks for televised soaps, insisting that it was only really necessary for radio broadcasts and if it continued on television, she feared that it would only become something that would be made light of and mocked. Obviously, TPTB didn’t agree with her and felt it was a signature of sorts, for a soap and left it in. Who was right, who was not? I don’t know if the answer is that simple but think of all of those sketch comedy shows that parody soaps, what’s the first cue that they use? Organ music?

I think though that there was always something of a hierarchy within entertainment with television somehow being at the bottom, that has changed with the era of prestige prime time television that began around the end of the 20th century. Meanwhile, in daytime, it feels as though people making the dramas were determined to either be in on the joke or make a mockery of themselves lest they be mocked by others. 
There are other elements that went into it as well, sexism, misogyny, chauvinism, arrogance, lack of vision, lack of foresight, too much of a willingness to go with the trend and toss out the fundamental tenets of good storytelling, seeking cheap thrills.

The other part of it was that once the genre developed an inferiority complex (I would agree that it was likely industry wide some time in the 1990s) the companies that produced these shows started chasing screenwriters who couldn’t find work in films to write for these daytime dramas, whether these writers knew anything about the shows they were writing for or not.

Of course, there is no rule against genre hopping —Paddy Chayefsky was a writer that many writers wanted to emulate (minus the horrible health issues) because he was successful writing scripts for television, theater and film. But many of these writers didn’t know or seem to care about the history of the genre they were entering into.

From what I have observed, it seems as though, after Margaret Colin’s departure from the show, Deas may have either developed some bad habits or became a bit lazy. Hillary Bailey Smith, in one of those reunion discussions done during the pandemic, was very diplomatic when describing what it was like to replace Colin in the character of Margo. She basically said that Deas wasn’t too happy working with someone else. Episodes of HBS’ “Margo” and Deas’ “Tom” are pretty rare on YouTube but you can definitely tell that Deas’ energies are somewhere else, definitely not with his onscreen partner.

12 hours ago, All My Shadows said:

Someone must have gotten them completely in order, because it now clumsily mentions her winning two Daytime Emmys for OLTL.

Yeah, I noticed that someone in the comments section commented on her Daytime Emmy and Tony awards. I guess mentioning the Tony awards might have been a bridge too far, at least they specified that she won her maiden Primetime Emmy.

I decided to skip it. To be honest, I can’t really remember when I last watched anything close to a full awards show.

3 hours ago, Soapsuds said:

Yesterday was Scott Bryce birthday. Look who he celebrated his birthday with.

I this! 

10 minutes ago, Soapsuds said:

I didn't watch because I thought Rune was going to beat him.

He's been playing some good ball as of late.

I missed the match too. I saw highlights on YouTube.

That title was a long time coming for Grigor Dimitrov.

25 minutes ago, SoapDope said:

Here is an audio recording of the original 1975 closing with the voice chant.

 

Definitely a wise choice to get rid of the vocal part.

Lisa McColl vs. Lucinda Walsh.

4 minutes ago, Errol said:

I just have to say that Amelia is looking GREAT in that outfit and shaking her head. I now want to watch Victoria getting down in the club one night with her girlfriends, which means she'd have to have friends.

Speaking of which, that's what's missing on the soaps. Girlfriends and the bros. No character seems to have any true friends on any soap.

When is the last time there was a story where we saw a close friendship at play? The last time I saw Lauren, she and Michael were discussing Phyllis as if she were their problem child. The last time Victoria had any friends, I think Heather Tom was in the role. The friendship between Dru and Sharon was so organic, they’ve never filled that void for Sharon.

After the breakup of one of Victoria’s many relationships, they could have had her have some time at the club. It needn’t be anything serious, but of course it would concern Victor who wonders if Victoria’s new activity will take energy away from Newman, to which Victoria replies that it’s no different than Victor and his boxing.

Deadline, mentioning nothing about her daytime career, says this is Light’s first ever Emmy. 

https://deadline.com/2024/01/peacock-wins-first-emmy-judith-light-poker-face-1235697024/

It’s crazy to me that a film from the 1990s could be endangered this way.
I really enjoyed watching this film when I was able to see it on A&E (I think it aired on that network) before A&E and Bravo became a repository for reality television. It was the first time that I remember seeing Tracey Ullman in a mostly dramatic role and Lily Taylor was truly luminescent in this role. I am glad that Nancy Savoca was able to buy the rights to her film and rescue it from obsolescence.

We fans of daytime drama often talk about how gems are seemingly cast off to the wayside but the industry but, I guess, this happens all around.

https://www.wbur.org/news/2024/01/03/nancy-savoca-1993-film-household-saints-brattle-theatre

15 hours ago, Soapsuds said:

 

I really like the tight close up on Ellen’s face during those scenes where she is trying to piece together the events that led up to finding John’s body. That music and that single tear streaming down her face, just well done work all around.

Other than ATWT and GL, I have never seen Deas’ work. Those who have seen all his work,  would you say that the work he did here with future wife Margaret Colin is his best work? 

These posts, I am here for! Seriously, I dropped Y&R from my viewing schedule when “Jordan” was hauled away but these posts are keeping informed and entertained. Although, I could have sworn that Morrow did an interview in the very recent past where he tried to clean up his past remarks about Case, acknowledging that Nick and Sharon were likely endgame but Y&R being a continuing drama, they had to be kept apart for the foreseeable future. Bonus points if someone could find that interview, I am thinking that it was done during the pandemic.

Also, maybe this is my writer’s brain thinking but since when do the actors determine story? This is where Y&R took its inexorable march down the cliff imo. To paraphrase Yoda “either do or not do”. And imo, to “not do” means letting the role go to someone who “can do” and will do. In the real world outside of soaps, 30 years is a great run and longevity is not guaranteed in any industry.

*Also, am I the only one curious about the origin of Morrow’s remarks? Sharon never said anything even remotely negative about Morrow (at least not publicly). Did Sharon break his heart or reject him in the early days? What’s up with that?!

21 minutes ago, MarlandFan said:

Marland's scripts began airing in October of 1985, so while he was probably not responsible for the initial Craig/Lucinda tryst, he clearly saw their chemistry and kept a slow burn going over the next six months or so.  Sometime in early 1986, the two began kissing passionately and Lily walked in on them.  Craig, ever the "big brother", had to calm Lily down and explain the situation to her.

Yeah, that scene came on the heels of a married Sierra rejecting Craig’s advances before running out of the stables, shattering Craig. Lucinda was there to pick up the pieces, more than ready to be the receptacle to Craig’s pent up lust. 

43 minutes ago, Vee said:

Oh, so very early indeed. I didn't know that, I thought it was under Marland. She very clearly still is lusting after him late that year and well into 1986.

So it seems that, on the episode marking the exact anniversary date for the show, Craig and Lucinda had their ONS. It starts on the previous episode and there was lots of champagne involved as Craig, having just helped Betsy save Steve’s life, and Betsy forgot to thank him, leaving Craig feeling dejected and Lucinda was ready to land her seduction attempts. I think it was less than a full day later, Betsy invites Craig to the house, saying that she never got a chance to thank him. When Craig arrives at the cabin, Betsy reveals to him that Sierra survived and has been staying with her and Steve for her safety and they got the word that she is officially safe. 

1 hour ago, Vee said:

I have been plugging along on my YT binge through '86 over the year, and I was curious: Did Marland introduce the intense psychosexual fascination Lucinda had for Craig, or was it always there thanks to Hubbard? She's clearly deeply into him and I can remember seeing it as early as, I think, some Christmas '85 episodes. I thought I'd read they slept together eventually but I don't know when that was or the circumstances.

I believe they were deeply at odds in the 2000s when Craig became a supervillain, but I don't know if that relationship ever began to mend itself. Back in those days though, he seemed to be in her blood.

Lucinda and Craig had a ONS in late winter/early spring 1985 when both thought Sierra had been killed and were grieving and well, you know how that goes…

From what I have been told, Marland officially took over the HW job by the early fall (or late summer?) 1985, so unless he was ghostwriting, it was just as likely Susan Bedsow-Horgan. Man, I wish someone would do a proper interview with her and ask her about the timeline of her writing tenure at ATWT! 
 

By the time Bob and Kim had their wedding in April 1985, as part of ATWT’s anniversary, Sierra was discovered to be alive and she and Craig eventually reconnected and began a friendship, which made Lucinda uneasy (as she was hiding a secret from both) as well as jealous and resentful of the fact that Craig essentially treated them having slept together as a ONS between two people grieving over what they believed at that time to be the untimely loss of someone special to them.

In one of the soap threads, someone posted a CBS promo from 1985 and there’s a quick but illuminating clip of Craig and Sierra in each other’s arms and Lucinda, who has obviously just walked in to discover them in an embrace, has a look on her face as if her blood has just run cold. Craig, who notices Lucinda (and her scowl) over Sierra’s shoulder has this indescribable look on his face, as if he had been caught ravishing Sierra right in the foyer. It’s a “blink and you’ll miss it” moment, but that promo is certainly worth a look.

2 hours ago, Soapsuds said:

And since you mentioned it McCouch as a horrible totally different Dusty. Dusty went from a sweet guy to some thug mobster.

Ugh, I don’t know if it was a conscious choice but I pretty much wiped him from my memory bank, lol!

McCouch tried to capture Brian Bloom’s Long Island swag but it just came off as an off-brand Cagney gangster flick imitation.

2 hours ago, Liberty City said:

For me, there was more contrast between Byrne & Noelle Beck than there was with Bryne & Rattray (who, in clips I've seen, really worked well as Lily as written).

No disrespect to Beck but I completely forgot about her. I really wasn’t too invested in the show when she was on and I am not sure that she really inspired any deep discussion on specific storylines or character evolution. I am interested in hearing your thoughts on how her characterization contrasted to the others.
FWIW, I only mentioned Lucy Deakins as a counterpoint to Martha Byrne, I didn’t go into detail about her, although there is also a marked contrast between her Lily and Byrne’s iteration of the character. Again, I had no intention of slighting Beck but I just don’t remember enough of her time on the show to give any in depth analysis as I was pretty much done with the series by then.

24 minutes ago, Soapsuds said:

I'll add the Paul's from Andrew Kavovit to John Howard(model Paul) to Scott Holyrod to awful Roger Howarth. All totally different Paul's with Scott resembling more of Andrew's Paul.

The show should have stopped searching after casting Holyrod, who was a good fit for the role, like you just mentioned. To me, letting him go is just another part of that turbulent final decade of the show where tptb, even when they made a solid decision, ended up undercutting that same solid choice by making an unwise decision.

Letting Holyrod go in favor of Howarth was just bizarre, as his characterization of Paul didn’t fit with anyone beyond trading barbs with Block and McCouch.

Over the holiday weekend, it was a mix of a limited series on Hulu, which I subscribed to for a few months, courtesy of a Black Friday promotion and PBS.

 I was curious about the Jessica Lange and Susan Sarandon edition of Feud about Joan Crawford vs. Bette Davis. It was okay. I expected to be constantly reminded that it was Susan Sarandon pretending to be Bette Davis and this only happened a few times. Lange was good at disappearing somewhat more successfully into the role but I think the series could have ended a few episodes earlier than it did. One article that I read criticized the series for only showing Crawford as an actress concerned with her fading looks, while showing Davis is more layered and concerned with the work of being a character actress and producer. I can see that, perhaps if they gave Crawford an additional layer, the final three episodes might not have felt like a bit of a slog.

This weekend I also started to catch up with my viewing of the PBS Frontline series. I still contend that Frontline is the best news series on television. It provides depth to news events in a way that no other news program does, including 60 Minutes.

I think I am almost finished with Mrs. America, I know I’m late, lol. Much better than the installment of the Feud limited series that I saw over the weekend, although I am curious as to why the Shirley Chisholm character seems to fade from view towards the end of the series.