zanereed

3 hours ago, DRW50 said:

She was probably holding out for A Martinez too...

 

I finally finished the '85 Thanksgiving episode. Just as it seemed to be ending on an optimistic note (as soap Thanksgivings should), Kyle flounced out the door.

 

Sigh...what an odd way to end a holiday show. 

From what I saw of TGL in 1985 (and I didn't see much), it seemed like an odd YEAR.

1 hour ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

Reva was slightly less loathsome when written by Pamela K. Long, because at least Long understood the character and tried to give her some depth. No other writer ever managed to write effectively for Reva, however, and the jaw-droppingly idiotic stories they foisted upon her were just painful to endure. Reva the Ghost! Reva the Amish Amnesiac! Reva the San Cristocrapian Queen! Reva the Clone! Reva the Blind! Reva the Illegal-Immigrant Savior! Reva the Time Traveler! Reva the Portly Object of Every Man's Desire!

Exactly. It seemed no one but Long could write effectively for that character. Yes, Reva had popular stories post-Long (the whole Annie saga, of course), but no one seemed to serve that character justice throughout most of her tenure. Kudos to Zimmer for working with that material.

58 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

Charita's final scene was a brief one.  She was alone on a set, talking on the telephone...about Christmas, I believe, so the December 10th reference would work. I have a jittery copy of this somewhere, on VHS, and if I find it I'll confirm the details for sure.

 

Gail Kobe, the producer at the time, claimed certain actors were fired from he show because they did not agree with TPTB about the direction of their characters. Considering how atrocious a producer Kobe was, how she completely gutted and crippled the show, I imagine her tenure was a nightmare for people backstage. In an interview, Peter Simon spoke about how so many of the old-guard vets were being axed, and furious about it, and that Tom O'Rourke left on his last day ranting and raving down the hall. Under Kobe we lost half the regular cast, and had a bunch of uninteresting and/or annoying newbies suddenly rammed down our throats, along with a dumbing-down on the storytelling and some heinous sci-fi/fantasy crap.

Is Kobe why Peter Simon left the show in 1984? I wasn't sure if she had something to do with it. As far as the poor Bauer family goes:

1. Bill Bauer (Ed Bryce) - killed off in 1983 for the purposes of the Eli/Annie Simms storyline.

2. Hope Bauer (Elvera Roussel) - fired/let go in late 1983 due to Elvera not wanting Hope to be an alcoholic. I admit, I did like Hope during her last few months. Pam Long wrote a much more fiery Hope than in years past. I'm not sure why Elvera didn't agree with this. I could certainly see Hope depending on alcohol due the pressures of being a Spaulding.

3. Mike Bauer (Don Stewart) - fired by Kobe in 1984 for apparently not wanting to have Mike involved in a love triangle with Alexandra and Lillian. Supposedly Stewart and Beverlee McKinsey did not get along, which might have impacted Stewart's unwillingness (not sure if this is accurate, though). Mike's love triangle with Alexandra and Lillian would have likely brought on further complications for Lujack and Beth.

4. Ed Bauer (Peter Simon) - Simon left the role after 3 years in 1984 and the character was recast with Richard van Vleet.

5. Hillary Bauer (Marsha Clark) - killed off in 1984 for the purposes of the Susan Piper/Brandon Spaulding storyline.

On 12/7/2016 at 3:08 AM, DRW50 said:

What was the overlap with van Vleet and Charita? I remember them both at Hilary's funeral but that's it.

I think the funeral might have been one of the only times that van Vleet's Ed and Charita were on screen together. Speaking of which, Hillary's funeral was another atrocity. There was no need to kill her off, but when they did - no Mike at the funeral (which would make sense. I suppose, since they recently fired Stewart). I can't even recall if they even mentioned Hillary's mother, Simone, at all.

To vetsoapfan or anyone else who can remember - did Charita have any further scenes at all on the show? I can't recall anything after Hillary's funeral, although Soap Central states her last episode was December 10th (not that SC is reliable concerning air dates).

59 minutes ago, rick55 said:

Include me in the group that was disappointed at there being no Steve Alice scene in 1989.  if it had only been Rachel he appeared to, okay, you could argue that she was delirious.  But once Jaime is involved as well then you lose that argument.  There HAS to be a Steve Alice scene.

 

I also thought that the 2 actors were Coster and Fitzpatrick.  It's funny how Lemay has no problem mentioning names so many times, but wouldn't here.  He also mentions a friendship with Coster that seems to heve become strained at some point.

I completely agree. There should have been a scene with Reinholt and Courtney to at least give them that final "goodbye" that they never had during their original run. It would have capped off an impressive week of cameos and Bay City history, in general. Although, on the other hand, it could have made fans demand that they bring the two of them back, myself included. I guess TPTB were just concerned with having Steve interact with current cast members?

Also, I wonder if Coster and Lemay eventually reconciled? Lemay's book was published in 1981(and probably finished the year prior?). I remember reading interviews in the 1990's (or possibly the 2000's) with each of them, and they were complimentary of each other, if asked.

On 12/10/2016 at 5:26 PM, vetsoapfan said:

 

Lemay is vague about why Fitzpatrick was replaced, but in his autobiography, the scribe claims that Fitzpatrick was fired for reasons other than his on-screen performances...whatever that means.

Lemay talks in his book about two problematic actors (leading men) who would eventually need to be replaced (this was after Reinholt was fired) - one for showing up drunk or angry at his fellow actors, the other one not bothering to learn his lines. Lemay doesn't specifically mention these problematic actors by name, but I always assumed the first actor was John Fitzpatrick, and the second was Nicolas Coster.

23 hours ago, rick55 said:

Not really defending Walter, but he did not strangle him.  He hit him in the head with a statue.  Remember, Lenore was on trial for it.  Noone would believe she could strangle Addison, but she could whack him over the head with an object.  It was a crime of passion.  Addison goaded him, goaded him, played on Walter's insecurities and jealousy.  That said, Walter still did what he did.

 

Now, I didn't see this.  I've read this.  Read some 70s novels that recapped this period.  But one of my first concrete memories of watching the show is Lenore on trial for that murder and i remember that Walter had done. He was defending her and was torn.  Then she was axquited and he just said nothing.   Not denying that his actions are unconscionable just clearing up how Addison died and that it was a crime of passion.

 

For me. the first Willis was a flat out bad guy.  Lemay's book read to me as the softening of that character was due to the recast.  That Russom didn't possess the qualities to portray Willis the same way.  Whatever the case, the character sure changed.  IIRC, the change started after Russ found out what he was doing to Sharlene and beat the crap out of him.

 

Sorry, yes - he hit him with that statue he got from Liz! I always get confused with the storyline because Walter always cried when he held Lenore's scarf that Wayne threw at him. I'm always reminded more of that scarf versus the statue. Crime of passion it may have been, but it still put Walter in a corner when Lenore was put on trial for Wayne's murder and he did nothing.

On 12/7/2016 at 5:52 PM, DRW50 said:

 

Thanks. I hope some of that shows up someday. I've seen the photos of her as Emma but I don't think it does the material justice. 

I would love to see that, as well. Unfortunately, I doubt any of her footage as Emma still exists. That being said, I remember the time I first got to see Steve Frame meet Alice Matthews. I never thought in a million years I would ever get to see that. So, I suppose anything is possible.

12 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

Steve Frame was initially presented as a young Cash McCall-type character, with no indication that he had grown up dirt-poor on a farm. When he later told Alice about his roots, I could accept it because it made valid psychological sense. He had lied about or at least hidden the true story of his origins because he was ashamed of where he came from. It was a depressing, dead-end world he was desperate to escape from, to deny. In real life, people do create elaborate backstories for themselves once they are far removed from their original, unpleasant environment. I wonder if Reinholt took exception to this redirection of his character mainly because he disliked Lemay, rather than because the writing was poor. As much as I criticize Lemay for his petulance and arrogance, and for his dismissal of beloved actors like Courtney and Dwyer, the first several years of his tenure on AW were brilliant; the stuff erudite soap fans dream about. I had no problem with Steve's revelation about being born on a farm, any more than I had a problem about the formerly-virulent Aunt Liz becoming softer and more vulnerable after fate and her own atrocious behavior led her to losing her entire family in one way or another. It made the characters richer.

 

I watched AW consistently during Courtney's first 11 years there, and while I found her a bit too overly-expressive and "bubbly" at the very beginning, I thought she grew into a very strong, impressive actress with an obvious star appeal. Heck, when she passed away, even the controversial producer Paul Rauch, who had fired her from AW to begin with, said that she had been a "great gal" who always turned in stellar performances. It's a shame that younger soap fans, who had never seen her work for themselves, seem to accept Lemay's denigrating comments as gospel. I would refute his comments very vigorously.

 

As for Willis Frame, I actually found him to become more likable when Fitzpatrick was replaced by Leon Russom. The second actor brought a layer of vulnerability and humanity to the role that had been lacking during Fitzpatrick's portrayal.

I think someone previous posted in this thread an image from one of the soap mags from the 1970's featuring an interview with Reinholt. He was critical of the writing on AW, saying how the current writer failed to understand the Steven Frame that he and Agnes Nixon created when the character first appeared on the show.

It's funny you mention Leon Russom as Willis. He's the only Willis I remember, but Lemay stated in his book that he didn't have the drive to write for the character of Willis once Fitzpatrick was fired and took over. I'm not sure why, as I thought Russom was a very capable actor.

14 hours ago, DRW50 said:

 

It's still amazing to me, especially since 1985 was when soaps were still supposed to be more family-oriented and less contemptuous. It really shows how far off the rails GL was in these years. Watching ATWT and then GL an hour later must have felt like whiplash. 

It was especially jarring in 1986, when Marland had ATWT celebrate 30 years on TV by focusing on the 50th anniversary of Chris and Nancy. Not only did that anniversary focus on the core couple of the core family, they brought back Penny and Don.

Compare that to GL's 50th anniversary celebration the next year. Yes, they did do a week of tributes (just a few minutes though) spotlighting events from 1979 to 1987 (because that's all they had available in the archive), but nothing that truly spotlighted either the core family (the Bauers) or the history of the show. No fan favorites returned at all.

Even Another World, who basically was in a situation similar to GL (not many characters still around from before the 1980's) brought back several characters in 1989 for the 25th Anniversary, including George Reinholt (which was the biggest shock to me)!

16 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

Many of the pre-existing characters from before Lemay's reign changed quite a bit during his tenure. For the most part, I could justify the changes because they made sense psychologically. Vivacious Alice became more withdrawn and fragile, but years of tragedy and heartache can wear anyone down, so the character's alteration was understandable. Mary Matthews became fiercely overprotective of her children, but again, years of seeing her kids abused and traumatized could realistically lead a mother's claws to come out in full force. Aunt Liz went from being a screaming shrew to a lonely busybody with ultimately good (if misguided) intentions. After losing her son and alienating everyone else in her immediate family, however, I accepted her learning some very harsh lessons and mellowing out.

 

There are writers who just naturally understand, and gravitate towards, certain characters, and Lemay was much more adept at writing for the ambiguous bad boys or complicated, antagonistic anti-heroines than he was at writing for traditional "good" characters like Russ or Alice.

Agreed. In order to have longevity for a character, the character NEEDS to change in order to reflect their life experiences. Some characters can stagnate, or revert back to their old ways, but good characters and good writing will reflect change and character evolution. Lemay's changes to the characters you mention above did make sense.

However, I still find it interesting that Lemay chose to embody *himself* in the character of Steve Frame. Despite his obvious issues with Reinholt, Lemay wrote his whole family and family experiences around that character. That was one change that Reinholt never agreed with. Steve Frame was originally supposed to be an only child from the east coast. Now Steve Frame was from Oklahoma and had 12 siblings. vetsoapfan - what did you personally think of this shift in Steve's history once it started in 1971?

I remember watching Courtney's AW footage closely when I finally was able to view it (this was after Lemay's book was published) to see if she was looking down (for her apparent queue cards) or displaying other things that were discussed in his book. I didn't see a thing that would make his claims justified. Again, that based on limited footage available. I thought Courtney did a wonderful job as Alice from what I've seen (and heard via Eddie's audio clips as well).

I wish I could see more of John Fitzpatrick as Willis. From the episodes I've seen, I don't get the sense that Willis was very likable with Fitzpatrick in the role.

Exactly. Bert's funeral should have been a major event in order to properly celebrate Charita's long-standing relationship with TGL. The fact that they only mentioned Mike IN PASSING having sung at Bert's service was, frankly, pathetic. Consider how well they did HB's funeral over a decade later (Trish even showed up, for goodness' sake!), and one can see that Bert's death and funeral was just an afterthought TPTB finally chose to address. I remember deciding to watch the show again in 1986 (after having given up in 1985 and restarting just for Chris Bernau's return). When they finally had Bert pass away, I was hoping and expecting familiar faces to be present for her funeral, but no. No Mike. No Hope. No Meta, That was at the very least. What about the people who were close to Bert throughout the years. Trudy would have been pushing it because she was barely on the show show in the early 1950's. But, no Peggy Fletcher?

Between this and dragging out the story of Caroline poisoning Pat (wasn't one of the reasons because Caroline was popular with some viewers?), I wonder if the writers/producers at the time were starting the amorality-doesn't-have-to-be-so-bad kick that soaps would really dive into about 20 years later. 

Most likely. If you look at some of the other soaps during this time period ("The Guiding Light", for instance), if a major, popular character would have murdered someone, it would have been by accident (Joe Werner accidentally pushing Lee Gantry out a window, for example). But in this case, Walter strangled Wayne. It may have been a "heat of the moment" action, but the writers had Walter murder Wayne. Then, Walter does nothing to help his pregnant wife as she is convicted and put away for a crime Walter committed.

Perhaps if Walter had immediately confided in Lenore about his actions and lamented over what he had done, the character may have stood a chance at survival. Maybe. I don't know how the character remained popular after letting Lenore remain in prison and doing nothing.

6 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

Lemay, brilliant a writer as he was, often belittled people whom he  chose to dislike. His comments could be quite petulant and churlish, and often hypocritical. He acted as if he could read actors' minds, and then gave them absurd negative motivations of his own creation, which he could complain about.

I also wanted to ask you about those who Lemay did prefer, such as the first Willis Frame, John Fitzpatrick. Reading Lemay's book, he really thought Fitzpatrick was an even better actor than Reinholt, and that he was going to use Willis as a key player in Bay City, until circumstances forced a recast. I've only seen a few episodes with Fitzpatrick in the role, but I admit I wasn't exactly "WOW'd" by him (or the Willis character, in general). Maybe I didn't have enough episodes to properly have an his work. Any thoughts on Willis/Fitzpatrick, vetsoapfan?

Lemay's take on the situation with Walter Curtin is certainly one thing I'll agree with him on. Why TPTB at that time thought it was a good idea for Walter to murder Wayne and then let Lenore rot in prison without any serious repercussions boggles my mind. There really was no way out of that situation other than either: A. killing Walter off, or B. convicting Walter and sending him to prison. The first option was the easier of the two.

I'm very glad another rare snippet (even if audio only) surfaces again from Danny Hill re: TGL.

I wonder how Mart Hulswit is doing? I really wish someone could interview him about his experience on GL.

Very true, Paul. I tend to forget the time period. Although initially there was at least one other family besides the Bauers. Back in the 1950's it was the Bauer family, the Roberts family (via Meta, of course), and the Grant family. Then, it seemed in 1955 a shift from the three families to just the Bauers, with Joe being killed off and Richard and Laura Grant being written out (even though Kathy Roberts would last until 1958 and Dick Grant until around 1962). Then, you are definitely correct - the Bauer family was the core family with characters who interacted with them.

I really doubt we'll ever get to see those 1973 episodes ever. As you said, P&G don't care at all. Even if they did, I wonder what the cost would be to de-archive those films, plus the cost of transferring them. Also, who knows that the condition of the film prints are at this point? It's a shame, as those films are likely the only remaining footage from 1973, other than the episode that thankfully Roger Newcomb/Soap Classics put on the "Bauer Family" DVD set.

I think one of the primary reasons for Don Stewart's popularity that continued well into the 1970's was his looks. I don't think he had as much chemistry with Lynne Adams (or Kathryn Hays, not sure on that one since she played Leslie so briefly) as he did with Barbara Rodell.

Yes, some of those storylines I would love to see at least some episodes to get a glimpse as to how this played out. I too was always curious with how Leslie ended up with Stanley Norris when Mike wasn't available. And I would definitely love to see any episode with Nancy Addison as Kit Vestid!

Well, some TGL episodes from 1973 are still sitting at the UCLA archive doing nothing but likely rotting away. Those would be fascinating to watch. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever get to see them.

I know that 1970 was still a transition period for TGL, with some long-term characters leaving (Paul Fletcher, Johnny Fletcher the following year, etc), and the Norris family essentially settling in. Stanley was the first arrival in 1969, and then the Barbara, Ken and Holly followed thereafter (and Andy a few years later). Roger certainly wasn't the same person initially as he was during his 1978 to 1980 run. In fact, looking at the show between 1964 and 1971, there really wasn't any consistent core family other than the Bauers. Adding to that, the adult Ed was still only 4 years into his run by 1970, and Mike had only just returned to the show in 1968. In both cases new actors were playing the roles (Mart Hulswit beginning in 1969 and Don Stewart in late 1968), so you are probably right, Carl - it might have made the new Norris family easier to accept?

9 hours ago, Nothin'ButAttitude said:

Thanks, @DRW50 for posting the clip. Teen Holly (as she said she was 18) sounded like a terror. 

 

Does anyone know if Roger was on the show yet? If so, was Holly interacting with him by then or was she in Ed's orbit?

Michael Zaslow started on TGL in April of 1971. Holly wouldn't be involved with Ed until a year or two after this. She was mainly involved with Roger initially.

On 10/29/2016 at 2:19 AM, cassadine1991 said:

How long did the Ritounelle theme last? 1975-1981? Also were there different versions?

Correct, 1975 to 1981 (when the "disco" theme made its first appearance!). I think there were only two versions - the original with the female voices and the second with the strings replacing the female voices. Unfortunately, I can't remember when the strings version came into play. I want to say it was 1976, but I can't be certain.

Thanks for that link, Carl. This YT user is really putting up some great stuff, even if it's just audio clips. I was hoping he would have some GL! If I recall, this scene posted by CBS on YT back in 2009 is the culmination to the audio clip (update: which the YT user actually states in the audio clip - I should read a bit more!!!).

Whoops - I completely forgot about Victoria being on GL in the late 1990's and early 2000's. I wasn't actively watching at the point.

I think she was just on for a few episodes in 1986. You are correct, that was a waste of talent. It reminded me of when Brandon Spaulding was revealed to have an unknown child in 1984, Victoria (the climax to that Barbados storyline debacle). I thought the show was going to add her to help diversify the cast. Did the show ever use Victoria at all?

This was right when Christopher Bernau came back to the show. I remember I started watching again because of that, as I had given up the show the year before because of the cast overhaul. I agree, Carl, the tone is completely uneven, as is the cast. I remember them pushing Simon and Jessie as the new supercouple, but I don't remember them catching on (as they, along with Calla, would all be off the show in 1987). They certainly didn't with me.

Yes, most of the 1970's are long gone, but not all, as there are a few random episodes around. In fact, Roger Newcomb found two GL episodes from 1976 that he never had a chance to get released via Soap Classics, along with a Bauer compilation video that likely included various scenes from the 1970's. I'm guessing Roger would have found some more if given more time. Some episodes from 1973 exist at UCLA, but they are not even allowed to be viewed. There are clips that have surfaced on YouTube over the years (one from 1975 as Mike Bauer confronts Hope's college professor, etc.). I wish that the German GL sets would have continued (which would have gotten us through the rest of 1979, but I guess there were either low sales or P & G put a stop to them).

I wish Hope had remaining on the show as well. As mentioned by others in this thread, there was talk of bringing back both Hope and Mike Bauer in 1986, but it never materialized.

I think part of the reason that Hope never returned after 1987 was the SORAS-ing of Alan-Michael in that same year. Although not impossible, it would seem a hard sell to put someone like Elvera Roussel next to Carl T. Evans or Rick Hearst and make it seem like mother and son. However, they eventually should have recast and had Hope return to involve herself in Alan-Michael's life. We never really saw Alan-Michael conflicted between him being both a Bauer and Spaulding.

You've probably already watched these on YT, but just in case, here are a few episodes with Alan and Hope on the island from 1979: