will81

6 hours ago, ironlion said:

I liked Scott but I agree that he wasn't a strong charachter on his own without the Sheila/Lauren drama.

Who do you supposed would have been a better man for them to fight over? Perhaps Paul as the actual baby daddy, then him suing Lauren for child custody after her affair with Brad, then that feeding direcly in to her reignited feud with Tracy?

In watching some early 80s episodes...I'm sure this was discussed at nauseum, but but what exactly led to the Brooks and Fosters being phased out?

I think Scott was the right character because it was never about the man. I think Paul and Lauren would never have had the issues between them post-Sheila that Lauren and Scott did. I can't see Paul ever suing Lauren for custody of a child. Even in 1992 I don't think Paul wanted to be a father. Peter Barton had just enough chemistry with both women and was never distracting enough to take focus away from Lauren and Sheila.

In terms of phasing out of original families. Bell hardly had to try since actors were constantly leaving. Bell preferred to keep original cast members as much as possible and didn't love recasts for his characters. Between 1975 - 1980 Bell lost almost his entire original week one cast.

80 - 82 was not much better. David Hasselhoff wanted out, Wings Hauser left and unfortunately Howard McGillan wasn't working out. With Snapper gone it was harder to justify Chris staying. Pam Peters left for the second time, and the big one was Jaime Lyn Bauer wanting to leave. After that you have Jill and Leslie left. I think Bell wanted to keep Leslie, but it didn't work out and she was shipped off. 

More than anything the show simply stopped recasting. The only original characters Bell really axed in 1982 were Leslie, Chris and Greg. Every other character was simply not recast when the actor chose to leave. The only other characters he got rid of from the original cast were Stu in 1983 and Liz in 1985. 

48 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

Great responses,guys. I could discuss this era 4eva.

Thanx for the info on Paul/DD. Allen Fawcett (Kelly EON) was put on a retainer to take over as Paul if needed.

Imagine how things would have been had there been a new Paul along with a whole new family.

Maybe Bill would have waited a little longer to add more Williams while viewers got used to Fawcett.

Conboy was called 'the Ross Hunter of daytime' and like that famed producer, who when he worked with Douglas Sirk  created classic movies like Imitation of Life and All That Heaven Allows, but without Sirk his movies were glossy but shallow. Same with Conboy/Bell.

There were a lot of aimless characters and stories in those years.

Did Brock, formerly in love with Leslie have much interaction with her or was he too busy with Julia?

Eve arrived with a bang with the claim that Charles was Victor's son but then she floundered. Wasn't it established she had a thing with Derek in the past and Charles could be his?

Jill never saw Derek again? 

Paul seemed to keep hooking up with Nikki and declaring his love, but it fizzled out.

He really lucked out with Victor/Nikki as much of the other pairings were failures.

 

 

 

 

Didn't know that about Allen, very interesting. Yeah that would have been a doozy to have basically a whole new family in town and not even the familiar face of DD to anchor it.

I think once Leslie got pregnant with Lance's baby, she and Brock had little or no interaction again. They didn't even have scene at Victor and Nikki's wedding. Nor did Julia and Brock (I don't think)

Yeah I was surprised that Eve rocks up, drops her bombshell, then moves in with Jill and spends more time undermining Liz and not so much time in the Julia/Victor orbit. I think in 1981 It is revealed that Eve and Derek had a past and he could be her son's father. Eve ignores this, it is too inconvenient for her, and with both seeking revenge on Victor they conspire together to make sure Julia finds out Victor had a vasectomy and I think shortly after this Derek is run out of town by Kay. Eve is there until Sep 81, but she barely appears through the summer before Victor pays her off to leave town. Margaret had to have heart surgery, but Bell had every intention of her returning once she recovered. 

When Bond was Jill she had a few scenes with Derek, begging him to leave Kay and give up on the money and was a minor part of the kidnapping plot, I am convinced though that Jill would have been a major part of that story with Suzanne being more a supporting if Brenda had stayed. I think once Jill moved on first with Steve and then with the Abbott's her only interaction with Derek was at Victor and Nikki's wedding in 1984

Bell definitely kept the Paul/Nikki thing in the background until Nikki/Victor became more a solid thing. Bell really did get lucky with MTS and Eric having the right chemistry. He definitely made them a focal point of the show and was smart to make them part of Lorie's last story too. Then having Terry and Eileen made the perfect quad. 

11 minutes ago, Broderick said:

Y'all have hit about everything.  Expanding to an hour exposed every (hidden) weakness in Y&R's foundation, and magnified each of those faults. 

CBS & Screen Gems had allowed Bill Bell to write without outlines and long-term projections, because they trusted his instincts.   He told them, "I don't believe my show will work in the hour format," and suddenly they no longer trusted his instincts; they thought they knew better.  They basically told him, "We're going to an hour with or without you," and he reluctantly agreed to the change.  His screenwriting method (sitting down with his dialogue writer Kay Alden and jotting down an outline at 8:00 in the morning and then immediately writing the script) was fine for the 30-minute format, but he and Kay couldn't write an hour-long show that way.  So they brought in additional writers and stumbled, fumbled, with the very process that had made the show successful.

John Conboy understood the languid, sensual, visual appeal of Y&R.  But evidently his relationship with Bill Bell was somewhat strained and was on the verge of imploding; it couldn't have come at a worse time.  Also there was a fundamental "shallowness" to Conboy that probably no one suspected, because Bell's thoughtful writing was concealing it.  Conboy seemed to believe that writing was secondary to beauty -- just take the bras off the girls and have their breasts jiggle, and you've got yourself a success.  Put a boy in a pair of tight pants, and your ratings will increase.  He was a fool.  It was Bell's writing -- combined with Conboy's visuals -- that made Y&R so successful in the 1970s.  Separate those two things (the writing and the beauty) and the product became less than the sum of its parts.  We quickly saw that happen, right before our eyes, and the entire show unraveled.  It was only when Wes Kenney came along in 1982 that the problem was mitigated. 

Bill Bell was clever enough to realize that Y&R wasn't the Holy Grail of soaps.  It was a product that had benefited from the mistakes of its competitors.  One year Y&R was firmly in 9th place; the following year it was 3rd place.  Screen Gems and CBS cheered and lauded Y&R for its "wildfire ratings success".  There wasn't any wildfire success.  Other shows had expanded to an hour and then floundered, or they'd been given lousy time slots.  Y&R had shot up from #9 to #3 by merely being consistent -- holding its own -- while other shows toppled and failed.   Bell didn't have some "magic bullet", and he knew that; but his employers couldn't see the big picture.  

In my opinion, the Williams family WAS dropped in too quickly, and the Steve Williams character (probably envisioned by Bell as the "moral" son) came across as a sanctimonious jackass/yuppie who was VERY difficult to like; that particular character stymied the Williams family from Day One, damaging Peggy to an extent, and making the (already distasteful) cult storyline virtually unwatchable.  What actually did work was something completely unexpected -- the little "pseudo-family" created at Jonas's restaurant, where Paul, Andy, and Danny Romalotti all worked as waiters.  Those three guys even got their own "family" opening shot in the 1982 credits.  John Conboy proudly crowed, "We put three handsome young guys in white shirts and black pants, and our ratings immediately went up!"  Naw, it worked because Danny and Andy were orphaned characters, and Paul's real brother (Steve) was a disaster.  The audience could sense that the "real storyline" was among these three guys, and we responded to it.  The new core family that worked wasn't the Williams family itself, but the Paul/Andy/Danny relationship, and Bell worked it for years -- dropping Paul and Andy into a detective office with the charismatic Stephanie E. Williams, and casting Danny in the "little brother" role with Patty, then Traci and Lauren, then Cricket. 

It took a LOT of trial and error to find the things that worked, and the things that didn't.  When the show went to an hour, Bill Bell probably never DREAMED that the "pseudo-family" of Victor, Nikki, Kevin and Kay Chancellor would materialize and work, that Paul's actual "brothers" would be a recurring character played by President Ford's son and a kid spotted on "American Bandstand", but there it was and it worked, and these were the things that kept the show going in the right direction until the Abbotts could finally be stabilized as the "new" Brooks family.            

Yeah wow, that is a great recap. Makes total sense as to some of the behind the scenes stuff that was going on. Maybe 1980 was the time Conboy tried to oust Bell and take over. I do think Conboy had talent, but he was short sighted with Y&R and he came across as believing he was largely responsible for its success and that Bell was only a minor part of its success. I also heard when Conboy got Capitol he charged many of the sets for the new show to the Y&R budget and almost crippled Y&R. Not sure how true that is.

The Williams intro just seems disjointed and sudden in terms of linking all these random characters together and suddenly they are facing a family crises with Paul heading to the cult and Mary having a miscarriage and then April and baby Heather. It doesn't feel like Bell gave the family a chance to just exist for a bit. It was full steam ahead. Then brunette Patty runs upstairs one day in the middle of summer as Tammy Taylor and comes back down six months later as blonde Lilibet Stern, lol. 

I agree 80 - 82 feels like a period of trial and error. Even by early 82 as the Stevens are being packed up and shipped off, the show feels stronger. Conboy leaving and H. Wesley Kenney coming on definitely made a big difference. It has been stated Wesley sat down with Bell and basically gave him a laundry list of what was working and what wasn't and they whipped the show into shape pretty quickly after that. 

2 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Thanks for that comprehensive rundown.

My statement on 79 was about the story direction rather than the ratings. There was nothing going on that would cause a sudden drop but I felt things were petering out and the expansion didn't help.

Had the ongoing stories had exciting new twists and builup, the new characters could be introduced in the midst of it all but that wasn't the case.

I think it would have been better for Lance to have been presumed dead at this point and the shock of the news brings Leslie's memory back. However, that coupled with her grief would leave her unable to care for Brooks. She asks Lucas for a divorce and rejects Jonas

As Lucas was Brook's legal father, he would take custody and Lorie would use this to get Lance's precious son to herself by marrying Lucas., who always loved Lorie.

I would have kept Liz pining for Stu and have Vanessa become involved with him-half to spite Lorie but also because she is discovering she can have feelings for a man (other than her son!) Lorie of course would be livid.

When Stu realizes that Vanessa is too possessive he rejects her, which triggers her plan to frame Lorie for her death.

Of course, along the way Les would recover and want her son back.

Withdrawing Jill from the story weakened it. Would have been better to have the new Jill involved with familiar characters. Agree that Derek's motivation was murky. the show had never really done business stories so it was jarring that Chancellor was suddenly in the  limelight. Perhaps Bill could have come up with something with Suzanne. Bringing in Derek's son Jamie might have led to something. 

 

The cult was one of those Summer teen stories that had no long term ramifications. If it had been the springboard to solidifying steve and Peggy... david winn was another of those bland leading men and Pam Peters just never seemed to click.

 

Agree. Seemed much ado about nothing. Paul never cared for April who always came across as a wet blanket.

Team Nikki for wanting more out of life.

Using Brock as a romantic lead was jarring to the audience as Brock had always been the supporting/supportive character. Still not sure why Beau bailed. If contracts were renewed in Jan how come he was able to leave so soon. If he only agreed to say on 6 months, why give him his first big story?

 

The problem with Jabot was that at first, it was isolated. Only those 3 characters were involved. Maybe Chris could have got a job there?

 

Having Stu and Liz marry was a mistake in my book as it lead nowhere. They would have to be the happy tentpole couple, which isn't a bad thing but they never seemed to get the airtime in dramas surrounding their kids.

 

I recall John Kelly Genovese saying that the intro of the Williams was too full on.

Paul goes home one day and suddenly there's a dad who is a policeman, mom who's pregannt, brother who is a reporter, a teen sister and talk of another brother.He felt it was too much too soon and they should have come on more gradually.

Actually yeah you're right, in terms of story, looking at 1979 it does work, but you can see there was trouble ahead, even without the cast disruptions and the expansion, I think Bell was still going to have a rough 1980, maybe not as rough, but those other elements definitely caused more headaches.

Vanessa did take an interest in Stu, and I agree Bell should have pursued this and given Stu and Liz another road block instead of marrying them off.

I agree Lance should have hopped a plane to Paris for business and been presumed dead. Not sure I would have married Lorie and Lucas, but having her pursue him in her grief to hold on to the last piece of Lance (Brooks) would have raised the stakes as Leslie got her memory back. 

I think the cult story could have been more encompassing. You had Paul, Nikki, Peggy and Steve all tied up in it, they all had family/friends that could have been better utilised and I do think Bell could have sown more threads from the fall out of the cult moving into the Autumn. 

The Williams intro is interesting. In large part because it seems Doug Davidson was negotiating his contract and was MIA through Jan and Feb. Around the week of Jan 7, 1980 Carl is brought in on the Tony Baker case (This was the Nikki/Rose/Greg/Walter Addison story) the following week we meet Steve when he is hired by Stu as a reporter on the newspaper. The next week Steve meets with Greg about the case and mentions his father has given him a few leads on the case. Then nothing until early March when Paul pops back up and boom Paul is now Steve's brother and Carl's son. A couple weeks later Mary just appears and she is pregnant and then Patty comes along. At this point we have Carl solving crimes, Steve meeting Jill, Mary and her late in life pregnancy, Paul and April. It probably was a lot and none of it seems super interesting to be honest. 

39 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

Getting back to 1980, looking back you could see the problems and opportunities Bill faced with the expansion.

Y&R always had a very tight knit format linked to the Brooks and Fosters so immediately adding new faces was going to change the feel of the show.

And by 79,some of the stories were losing steam.

Lance/Lorie/Leslie/Lucas/Vanessa had been diluted by introducing the Jonas/Pris element.

Same with Jill marrying Stuart and moving away from Derek/Kay.

I don't think either of those stories were well received. Jill cheating her mother out of happiness seemed out of character and did anyone find Jonas interesting?

I guess what I am saying is that the front burner stories were not super strong going in to 60 min format.

Then you had John McCook and Brenda leaving.

What did you guys think of the state of Y&R at that time and the choices Bill made?

Actually the show was consistantly hitting #1 or #2 (and sometimes #3) right up to Jan/Feb 1980. I think Bell was chugging along just fine right up to the point at which the show hit an hour. AMC took advantage of this with their masquerade ball around the same week and I think stole a big chunk of viewers that saw that show stabilise and Y&R fall to 5th.

I do think Brenda and John's departures along with David's minimised appearance and JLB's pregnany (which restricted what Bell could do with Lorie) really did strike a big blow to the show. It is hard to introduce a set of new characters at the same time that your familiar faces are either gone or unable to lead the show. Plus Leslie walking around with no clue who she was didn't help. 

Vanessa was done at this point. her entire motivation was destroying Lorie/Lance and she did that. Goal accomplished. With McCook's departure the 4 L's were done. I don't blame Bell for how Lance left as it seems John made a last minute decision to leave the show, but it is silly that after all those years Vanessa managed to trick Lorie into getting a divorce behind Lance's back and he just sort of accepted it and left town and neither fought for their marriage of 3 years. Lorie was initially crying on Michael's shoulder, that seemed to go nowhere. 

From what I can tell the amnesia story was a bit of a bust, along with the Santa Leandro story, just as Leslie wanted to remember her past and was a threat to Lorie, JLB went on maternity leave and the audience got a new Lorie in Wesley Ann Pfenning which led to Lorie going out of town on a book tour for several weeks and suddenly the 4 L's were somewhat disbanded and replaced by Lucas/Leslie/Jonas/Casey. The problem here was Lucas and Leslie were never in love, so what was at stake here? Why would I watch those four when there was little reason for Leslie and Lucas to even bother reconciling a marriage the was a big fake and now that Leslie had no memory of it anyway and Pris was in love with Jonas, what was the point? For Brooks? He was off in New York with Lorie and when she returned she pointed out that neither Lucas nor Leslie even called once to ask about him, hence her motivation to pursue custody. For absolutely no reason Lucas suddenly wanted to save his marriage which gave some thin motivation for Lorie to go after Lucas to help her case with getting custody of Brooks and allowing a rather weak triangle with Leslie who didn't care for Lucas and Lorie who cared more for Brooks. None of it worked. Jonas gave up Leslie pretty quick and Casey let go of Lucas just as easily. If I was watching I would have had no investment in any of it.

As for Jill/Derek/Kay that ended with Brenda's departure. Bell seemed more motivated to give Jill something new, hence the Abbott's and Jabot. The problem with Derek was Bell shifted his motivations which were not in line with his character. Derek was never interested in Kay's money - I guess it somewhat makes sense that he got a taste of the good life and wanted more, but I still don't buy it. Without Jill it just didn't work. Derek loved women and his life as a hairdresser and Kay was still besotted with him, so what was the story here? He seemed more likely to open his salon and simply take up with his clients behind Kay's back, I don't buy his desire to suddenly be a big shot at Chancellor. Nor do I buy Kay's fear of him before the trip on the cruise, plus once she was seeing Douglas why would she keep Derek around? Because he got her hooked on the sauce again? Pretty thin.

The other big story was the cult story. Not sure how I feel about that one. I guess @Broderick could say if it worked. Truth is the ratings tanked in Aug 1980 when this was a main story. The show was 7th amongst soaps but 12th overall in daytime. It feels like Bell put a quick end to the story, moved everyone on quickly and there were few ramifications besides Peggy and Steve. Even that resolved itself rather quickly. Stu hated Steve for putting his daughter in danger, Peggy told him to butt out. Then suddenly Peggy had doubts about Steve and was turning to Jack. 

April/Paul - I'd say due to cast changes and Lynn Topping and David being mostly off screen hurt this one. It stopped and started and repeated itself once Cindy Eilbacher came on. Some mix up with Dorothy and Wayne thinking Steven was the father and then Greg and April wanting to be together and Nikki geting in their way and Greg hating Paul. None of it seems too exciting to me. Even Nikki scheming didn't last long and she gave up and moved on. 

Victor/Julia/Brock/Michael - This stopped started too. Bell seemed to be moving Lorie and Victor together, but when JLB's pregnancy started to show and she was having issues he stopped this pairing and Lorie refused to get involved with Victor as he was married. Julia (like every woman in GC) only wanted a friendship with Brock. He leaves and then Julia and Michael meet through their work at Jabot. This story was another stop/starter. Eve added some spice I guess and the eventual Michael in the dungeon story, which was more 1981. 

John/Jill/Jack - I said above Jabot seemed to be intergrated well, but this triangle seemingly went nowhere. Very little seemed to occur until its resolution in early 81. Jack wanted Jill she wanted John, John was too afraid to make a move. He finally does just as Jill sleeps with Jack, John leaves town heartbroken. The end. 

Liz/Stu/Eve - This was a rather minor story that didn't go anywhere. Stu would never cheat on Liz and Eve was more involved in the Victor story so I can't imagine it was all that interesting either. 

The Williams - Paul had story, Patty didn't and was gone for six months between recasts. Mary had an interesting late in life pregnancy and miscarriage. All rather minor stories for the family as a whole. 

Again this all from putting together synopsis, so those who watched may have had a different experience or may remember things not in synopsis that made these stories better than they read. 

17 minutes ago, FrenchBug82 said:

This might be an unpopular opinion since the Sheila/Lauren story has become mythical but I used to have a HUGE issue with the fact the battle was about Scott because I never bought much chemistry between Lauren and Scott and it felt to me like their couple was a plot device rather than a real pairing. 
I didn't mind him being a wet blanket because in the titanic battle around him, it was better than he not be as big-character as the two women were, and he was obviously handsome enough that I could buy Sheila being enamored. But the Lauren/Scott part of the equation always felt too weak for me to be that invested... which is probably why the story became stronger once Sheila's obsession became *Lauren* rather than Scott himself, which is counterintuitive because usually villains work better for me when they have a clear goal.

I'd agree, if Lauren hadn't gotten pregnant. Honestly that was her lynch pin to Scott, because prior to Sheila drugging Scott, Lauren and Scott were on thin ice. I don't think even Bell saw them as any real end game. The big fight was over Lauren's baby not so much Scott. It was a Single White Female sort of situation. Once Sheila fled, Lauren wasn't so quick to reconcile with Scott and had an affair with Brad during their second marriage (basically forced upon her by Scott)

I think Sheila's obssession was always to have a stable home life with a husband and child and all the things she felt she never had. She wanted a man to love her, Scott represented this, honestly it could have been any man, and that's what Scott became, the every man. Sheila's paranoia with Lauren was only because she was constantly on edge that Lauren would find out she had switched the babies and her whole life would come crashing down. Her focus on Lauren post farmhouse fire was simply because Lauren knew Eric Forrester - Lauren was a means to an end, but at that point never Sheila's obssession. She was just constantly in her way.

I don't think Bell ever really made Sheila and Lauren about Scott. It was bigger than him and I always felt it was about the two women, he was just a piece in the puzzle. Scott was the initial catalyst, but Bell always made it about deeper emotions and motivations than simply a man. 

32 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

I do recall the Jill/Kay feud was rested for a year or two..until Jill was serious with John and Kay dropped by to visit Jill.

Jill vs Kay when Adair was playing Jill had a different element because Adair had a sweet exterior so that Kay looked unhinged while Jill looked innocent.  It's probably why the feud didn't become revived until Dickson came back in mid 1983 as Jill.

There's a channel on YT uploading episodes of Y & R...and I was surprised at some of the character interactions.

I knew Traci and Lauren fought over Danny in 1983/4...but I was surprised Traci and Danny still interacted up to 1986..with Traci being almost a big sister to Cricket.

When did Traci and Danny stop interacting with one another?  By the early 90s, you wouldn't have known the two had previously been married.

And I was watching Brenda Dickson's last episodes in summer 1987..and saw Lauren/Danny as one another's dates..with Nina playing on Phillip's insecurities when it came to Cricket and Danny.

I'm curious as to when Lauren and Danny stopped interacting..since by the early 90s you wouldn't know the two were friends.

And to this day Paul/Lauren are a couple that I wish had reunited..though I loved how they were still friends and would celebrate their anniversary long after the two divorced.  And I liked that when Paul faked his death in 1989..he told Lauren he was still alive.

Traci and Danny were divorced in 1985 and by the end of that year Bell had begun to bring Traci and Brad together. In early 86 Danny starts to wonder if maybe he made a mistake letting go of Traci, but Brad asks him to step back and he does. Just as Traci and Brad marry, Cricket returns to town and for the most part this is the end of Traci and Danny. I think they perform together that year at a concert, but by 1987 neither has anything to do with each other. It is strange, Cricket was Traci's step-sister for a time, yet Traci had nothing to do with Danny and Cricket's lives.

In 1987 due to the Phillip/Cricket/Danny triangle, which saw Cricket and Phillip engaged, and at the same time Lauren being let loose from Paul, I guess Bell decided to briefly have Lauren and Danny back in each others orbits, they hadn't really interacted much in years at that point. It was brief as Lauren moved on to Brad almost immediately. I think when Brenda Dickson was playing Jill, Bell had intended a Jill/Brad/Lauren triangle, but when Jess took over, it was clear she and Don had no chemistry and it seemed to be dropped. Lauren and Danny were pretty well done once Lauren went after Brad. 

1 hour ago, Broderick said:

Hopefully one day we'll have the opportunity to review these early Jabot scenes with today's knowledge, and we'll be able to understand exactly what was occurring behind the scenes.  My own suspicion is that three things were in play (1) pilot season, (2) the casting of Jack, and (3) Bond's contract status.  

Back in the 1980s, spring was always identified as "pilot season", and actors were often missing from their roles in the spring because they were auditioning for various nighttime pilots.   I believe Brett Halsey was always the designated choice for John Abbott, but he likely had a pilot for a nighttime series (or possibly a movie-of-the-week) on the horizon that was hampering his ability to work on daytime consistently until later in the summer.  Just my guess.  

All kids my age were familiar with Terry Lester from a live-action science-fiction series called "Ark II".  He was a younger actor who was somewhat "in demand" in the late 1970s and early 1980s.  Yes, he'd allegedly auditioned for Snapper Foster, but he did have a certain popularity factor, and it might have taken some special concessions to get him to sign-on as John Junior.  I expect he had some other options besides Y&R, as well.  

Bond Gideon had likely signed a very short-term contract when she initially took over from Miss Dickson -- 3 months or 13-weeks or something.   This would've meant that her deal was expiring in May or June of 1980, and it was probably renegotiation time for her long-term contract.  If Bell & Conboy wanted to dump her, this was their chance.  If they wanted to keep her, this was Bond Gideon's opportunity to make them ante-up a bigger salary.  Evidently, her agent overstepped her popularity (called her "Q-factor" in those days) and as a result she was out the door, with Deborah Adair coming quickly as her replacement.  (As y'all could tell from the clips that surfaced a while back, Bond Gideon was a pretty girl, a capable actress, and she seemed to have a fairly good command of the Jill character.)  There's always been a theory that she was miscast and then "Shattucked" because of her unpopularity; after watching her clips, I find that doubtful.    

All of this is just conjecture, but Bell appeared to know where he was going with this particular storyline.   He started dropping hints early on about the good-for-nothing, playboy son, the wife who'd abandoned the family years ago, the two daughters (one in boarding school, the other in college), the beloved housekeeper -- all of these things that didn't come to fruition fully until two years down the road.  There were very few missteps here on Bill Bell's part, unlike other storylines which seemed to misfire like crazy (Sebastian Crowne & the orphans, the Stevens family who could hop on a plane and disappear from the canvas in a single episode, Kay Chancellor vanishing into thin air for endless months with no explanation at all between her rescue from Felipe's island and her liaison with Jerry Cashman the male escort, Todd Williams the much-discussed young seminarian who never appeared on-screen, Suzanne Lynch who took a job in the Chancellor Industries cafeteria and was never seen or heard from again, Douglas Austin who was a petty thief breaking into a safe in one episode and Victor Newman's dear friend from the mysterious war in the next episode, and so forth and so on).  I believe the Jabot storyline was the ONE thing Bell seemed sure about; it just took a couple of months of actor-shuffling to get it rolling by late summer of 1980.     

This is why I am obssessed with the 80 - 82 period. Y&R is always so together and orderly for the most part during Bell's run, but this period was rather messy by Y&R standards.

I think with Kay, Jeanne mentioned she was to be fired and Kay killed off when she took the jump off the cruise ship, but Bell changed his mind (I think she happened to get some favourable viewer mail around the time) I assume he decied to keep Kay but had no idea what to do with her after the Felipe story ended. Through most of 1981 she has little to do, she certainly appeared but mostly as a side character, until Bell pairs her with Nikki and Cash. I dare say it wasn't really until 1982 that Kay became more pivotal to the canvas again though. 

I agree, though I didn't watch like you did, even in synopsis you can tell what was working and what wasn't and what Bell seemed to be on top of. Though Halsey reportedly was let go due to lack of chemistry, Bell was able to still maintain focus on Jabot through Jack taking over. Bell didn't just abandon Jabot. I'd say the chemistry with Deb and Terry helped and Lilibet coming on as well, plus Terry in general must have inspired Bell to keep things going. Within a year John came back along with Mamie and shortly after Ashley and Traci. As you say all characters mentioned long before they appeared. I do believe he had a vision for Jabot and the Abbotts and held on to it because even without John, he kept Jack/Jill and Jabot going through 1981 when he easily could have junked it. So many other things were being thrown out when they didn't work. 

38 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

OK, thanks Broderick for that perspective.

So maybe another problem (among all the other 1980 goings on) was the casting of Jack?

Terry Lester had tested for Snapper I think when Espy left.

How long b/w Bond's last appearance and Deborah's arrival? Edit Just read Will's response so maybe a month or so.

Perhaps her sudden departure put a hold on the story progressing.

I wonder, is it also possible Bond had a 13 week deal, her agent kicks up a fuss at the end of it for a bigger more ironclad contract. Conboy and Bell aren't having it, but they keep Bond until they can find a new Jill?

4 minutes ago, Broderick said:

I'm pretty sure it was Brett Halsey, lol.  

You could tell from Scene One that this "Jabot plot" was going to be Jill's next big storyline, and John Abbott was slated to play a crucial role in it.  They pulled out all the stops -- shiny new sets, professionally-designed Jabot logo, an expensive suit from Giorgio's of Beverly Hills for the CEO, the whole she-bang.  And remember, this scene came only a few months after Jill divorced Stuart Brooks, so the foreshadowing with the Older Man was pretty obvious.  

Jill had been working at some lower-income hair salon called "Bob's Beauty Bar" (or something like that), and she hated it.  She'd whined about it several times.  Steve Williams kept telling her she could do better.  Finally, she decided that she'd apply for the job at Jabot.  She marched into the new Jabot set (without even a commercial break to mark the time sequence between her resolution and her action) and talked John Abbott into interviewing her, though he specified to her that normally hiring was done by the HR department.  She was underqualified for the job, but sold herself well, and he hired her on a trial basis.    The scene was a "big deal", and you could tell it was moving toward a specific purpose.

It was several weeks later that John became impressed enough with her to say, "I'd like for you to speak with John Junior -- we've always called him Jack -- and help him get his head on straight."  Initially it was all about her relationship with John Senior. 

As for who played John in that initial interview scene -- I remember it as being Halsey.  But then again, I was a young teenager, and John Abbott was a 50-year old man, and all 50 year old men tend to look the same to a young kid.  The only time I recall laying eyes on Sean Garrison is in the You Tube clip posted by Bond Gideon's real-life husband.  But memories from 40+ years ago can be deceiving, I guess. 

In hindsight, there was a lot of stopping and starting with this particular storyline (much like in the beginning of the Derek Thurston storyline in 1976), but by the time we started seeing Terry Lester, Deborah Adair and Brett Halsey on a regular basis in the fall of 1980, it seemed as though Jabot had existed on the show for a long time, and it seemed as though Jill had been interacting with Abbott Senior and Abbott Junior for eons.   The whole show was rather topsy-turvy in 1980 as ya'll know, but the Jabot aspect of it always seemed fairly smooth, self-confident, sophisticated, and Bell-like, while many other aspects of the show in 1980 seemed cobbled together more haphazardly.    

Thanks for that. I agree Bell was pulling out all the stops, but somewhere along the way Bond's agent did something to get her fired. Between May - July Jill and John are scarcely around. It may have been Bell slowly integrating the story/characters or maybe they were using that time to hunt for new actors / wait for Halsey to return (if he was indeed in the role in May). 

It is hard to tell. Jill and John would be on one week, then seemingly vanish the next. As far as I can tell Jill and John appear the week of June 30 1980 and then vanish until the week of July 21, 1980. That's a big gap and seems to be the point at which Deb Adair took over and Brett either took over or came back. 

It sounds like the Jabot ball gets rolling (It is also a part of the Julia/Michael/Victor story and Jill works on the Julia campaign) but the triangle seems to be a non starter that barely goes anywhere until it is resolved a few months later. 

1 hour ago, Paul Raven said:

As for Bond and the negotiations, surely contracts would have been signed off before she joined the show.

Unless Bond started off as recurring? Maybe they agreed to that and then Bond's agent thought he had the upper hand?

Though that seems unlikely as Y&R didn't seem to do that, especially with major roles.

 

In fairness I have assumed things. Bond never said what her agent did, and I never pushed the subject. It was implied he asked for more money, but she never said that. She just said he made moves that got her fired. You would think that means money, money, money, but I have no idea. Bond was adamant that Bell and Conboy were happy with her and she was getting great feedback.

For the record here is the announcement from Aug 10, 1980

5 hours ago, yrfan1983 said:

Bond Gideon's husband is a member of the Facebook YR Classic page. IIRC he posted that Bond's talent agent asked the show for too much money, and the show countered by replacing her with Deborah Adair.

Bond also said this in response to one of my posts. She stated Conboy and Bell were very happy with her and so her agent made some moves that got her shown the door. It was 1980, everything was in a state of flux and Conboy didn't have the time for negotiations. 

5 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Jill got the job at Jabot in May, so that is when Brett Halsey was hired also I believe.

Yes Jill got the job in May but the $1M question is who was playing John. Halsey is announced in Aug 1980 along with Deborah and no mention that he played the role andwent on leave and came back. Sean is not mentioned at all anywhere. I would think this would have made the soap press and especially Jon-Michael Reed's column, but nothing. 

Some people on FB group state they are sure Sean was John first and Halsey took over, others elsewhere are certain Halsey was on for a couple episodes, disappeared and was replaced with Sean before coming back. I can't find anything pre Aug 1980 about John Abbott and who played him.

In synopsis Jill gets hired, then is aimless for two weeks until John returns from a business trip. That would be roughly June when we have that ep of Sean Garrison. Then the pair are on and off for the next month and off again until Deborah, Brett and Terry are all on board the week of July 21 1980. In other words, John and Jill barely appear between the time he hires her in May and the recasts in July

6 hours ago, soapfan770 said:

What did people think of the original Jack/Jill/John triangle of 1980-81? I wish it was available to see. Was it even brought up again in 1982 when John and Jill got back together?

I never saw it, but it seems to have been a non starter. Barely anything happens in 1980 and then the triangle ends in Mar 81 and Brett Halsey is shown the door. Apparently he was a dud on the chemistry scale. Seems Bell had more luck with Jill/Jack/Patty over the summer of 1981 before moving Jill on to Andy.

In 1982 Jill makes ammends with John for sleeping with Jack, since Jill and John were never actually together (he was too hesitant to start anything) he forgave her and they began dating.

1 hour ago, Manny said:

Ah yes, thats the guy!

Okay, so I guess he won't stick around for long then

Thank you!

Don't think he does stick around long, maybe just a few months. Pretty certain he never made it to 1997. 

2 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

That is so cool that we were able to match episodes.

 

Yeah it's awesome you were able to find this. Here is the newspaper article from July 24, 1980. Also mentions his next two episode dates.

I have a sneaking suspicion Deborah Adair and Brett Halsey were both brought on the same week. Maybe they started on Mon July 21 and Terry came on the next day. 

37 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

Ep 1869 Airdate Tues July 22 1980

Cast

Greg

Stuart

Snapper

Carl

Casey

Mary

Nikki

Paul

Sets/Scenes to be taped on each set

Campus Park

Steve Peggy

Sumiko's Room

Sumiko Matthew

Sumiko Paul

Hospital Room

Mary Carl Casey

Hospital Waiting Area

Greg Stu Snapper 

Greg Snapper Nikki

Greg Snapper

Greg Snapper Jill Nurse

John Abbott Office/Hospital Phone

John Jack

Jack Jill

Jack Jill Snapper

New World Commune Porch

Paul Matthew  Nikki

Paul Nikki Matthew Sumiko

Paul Nikki

Paul Nikki Matthew

Matthew Nikki

Looking at synopses-

Mary was in hospital after her miscarriage

Liz had been shot,by a hitman ordered to kill Greg- hence all the characters also at the hospital

Peggy and Steve were investigating the cult

Looks like Jill got word at Jabot from Snapper about Liz

 

This is Terry Lester's first episode and most likely one of Deborah Adair's. If not her first. Someone once said they remember Deborah's first scenes being at the hospital, so pretty close. According to synopsis, Jack drives Jill to the hospital. 

1 hour ago, Manny said:

I was watching the old episodes from 1996. And there is the guy that seems to work in Jabot with Ashley. And if I understood the German pronunciation correctly, is his name Adam Hunter? Who is he?

Was this the character played by Grant Cramer? Who played Shawn, Lauren's stalker from 1986? I honestly barely remember him. He was some real arrogant guy that was supposed to be a love interest for Ashley, but not even sure it went anywhere. 

20 minutes ago, Chris 2 said:

Beware of the post-Brenda seasons, where Kelly is promoted to female lead and starts frequently talking in a baby voice.

Oh I so remember that afflicting a number of young women in television in the late 90's/early 00's. I kept thining, why are they all speaking like that. 

9 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

 

I'm guessing this was in 1987.  If so, it proves Brenda Dickson could still play Jill as human and not over the top.  

Yep, Memorial Day 1987. There is also a scene from Feb 1987 when she reigns it in and gives a far better performance than usual for that period. 

The bigger problem with Jill/Katherine being mother/daughter was that the show wanted them to get along. So now Kay tries hard to make it work and Jill is a grumpus. Making them related should only have fueled their anger and hatred more and ignited a bigger battle between them. Otherwise what was the point? To me Jack Smith was one of those "That would be so cool" kinda guys, but he had no foresight, so he made story decisions that had idiotic or no follow through.

LML and MAB were "This looks good on paper" types, but they had zero idea how to execute any of their stories properly. None of them had any real respect for the show and its characters and were only feeding their (and certain actors) egos. They didn't love Y&R the way Bell did. 

For Y&R I would pick 98/99 as well - The Abbotts getting Jabot Back/Nikki and Victor reunited/Dru leaves town/Jill and Kay are sentenced to hell living together

ETA - Also if they knew the show was ending in 1999 what I would have liked (but obviously didn't happen)

I would have just kept Cole and Ashley together and had them have the baby girl she had wanted with Victor. When I first watched I didn't really like Eileen and J. Eddie Peck, but on rewatch I think they had an interesting chemistry

Maybe reunite Nina with her lost son and have her leave town to be near him

Phyllis' crimes are discovered and she is sent away to jail and Danny and Chris reunite while Lauren returns to reconcile with Paul

Diane keeps her dignity in tact and takes the high road out of GC or maybe Jack and Diane do make it work - not sure if I would want Jack still single and swinging or not

I do have one issue of Soap Bubble from early 1976 (I think May). Lynda Hirsch was a contributer or editor until it folded the same year and she started her own soap column in the newspapers. It is a pretty thin publication and the synopsis are not amazing but are still okay. I will scan mine in the new year to add. 

1 hour ago, Paul Raven said:

Something seems off about the 77 photo Vanessa and the back row seemed photoshopped.

Might be the lighting. This was taken around spring summer 1976 and was used for the Daytime TV Library Series. It seems an impromptu cast photo for the magazine. I have attached a colour version. This seems more an outtake, but I am pretty sure it was the one used on the cover.

ETA: Seems this was taken May 25, 26 or 27 1976 when Daytime TV was on set of the show

55 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Sorry to hear that you are having so much trouble, @will81. I'm trying to think of who you might contact who might be able to point you in a more helpful direction.

Have you tried any of the actors associated with the shows you're interested in? Some may have some suggestions. Some actors are accessible via social media, a few even have YouTube channels where they have posted clips, episodes and reels.

Have you heard of a blog called We Love Soaps? Last time I checked, it hadn't been updated in quite some time but one of the blog's founders, Roger Newcomb is active on social media and he seems like an affable guy, who is fairly knowledgeable and frank. He may be a good person to contact. If you have read any books lately on your topic, check some of the writers, see if you can contact them and explain what you're working on, they may have some pointers based on their reference materials.

If I can think of anything else, I will let you know. Good luck and keep the faith!

Over the summer I read a book called When Women Invented Television by Jennifer Keishin, she had extensive passages on Irna Phillips and has done quite a bit of research on soap operas. She's on Twitter, last time I checked. She could be a good person to contact @will81. Just a suggestion.

Thanks for that, this all happened over a year ago. I have graduated now and just had to move on with what I was doing, but appreciate the help.

What I wish (besides some miracle that would allow all these shows to somehow have survived) is that at the very least we could get access to daily episode guides. I have tried to contact P&G and Sony, the library archives that hold scripts to many shows, the networks they air on etc... to see if they have something like a reference guide with synopsis and cast/crew details. It would be a small consolation at least to have some record from the 1950's onwards. Definitely not as good as watching but better than nothing. So far no one has been able to or wants to help me. I even told them I was doing my thesis on soaps for a Bachelor degree and they still didn't give a toss. 

1 hour ago, DramatistDreamer said:

The daytime soaps currently still on air will definitely have better preserved archives. Bill Bell Sr. didn't mess around. His episodes were archived from day one. I'm sure from his experience working on other soaps previous to Y&R, he must've learned what not to do fairly quickly. All of these shows should've known from at least the early 70s to preserve their episodes, I mean, how foolishly short-sighted. 

I still wonder about shows like Texas and Capitol, that had relatively brief runs, comparatively. There are streaming platforms for everything these days. Streaming a show like Capitol wouldn't take much, unless the archive has deteriorated.

P&G never cared about the shows they produced (and still don't) they only cared about selling product/ad revenue. Unfortunately they made the majority of shows on the air. Many of which were broadcast live until the late 70's. Once the shows stopped serving their purpose they dismantled them and threw them away. I think for P&G, soaps were an advertising tool and nothing more. 

Sony seems to have saved both Days and Y&R from the beginning of each

Obviously Colgate-Palmolive saved The Doctors which I was suprised by.

Agnes' production company Creative Horizons saved B&W kinescope copies of OLTL and AMC but those were almost all lost in a fire and ABC didn't start saving eps until I think 1976ish and only because Agnes demanded it. Not sure about ABC saving GH. I doubt it as they were struggling to survive until the late 70's and hardly had the money and resources to archive shows prior to their boom years that started around 1976/77 (in terms of prime time anyway).

The others I am not sure.